Thaiquila

One thing your missing here is that a Thai citizen that was of the Caucasian persuasian would pay a discounted rate or free right? while an American of pure Asian decent, by policy, might pay at a full price. Where is the racism exactly?

One thing you are missing here is that the exact policies of this sauna are vague. Most perpertrators of race/nationality based price preferences try to keep it that way. Why? Probably to keep control over the details, avoid bad publicity, save face, maybe some are ashamed of it.

We don't really know what race based decisions will be made in real life there. With an age promotion, your ID says your age is eligible or it does not.

So,

What about a Lao? They are Asian, but not Thai, but there language is like Thai, so, hmmmm, maybe they are Thai enough for the Thai discount?

What about a Singaporean. Hmmm. Asian, yes. But maybe too rich. Better try asking the farang price.

And, on and on, a big smelly CAN OF WORMS.

Thats what you get when you introduce RACE/NATIONALITY as a discriminating criteria.

This sauna charges falang so they can meet and have sex with Thai people.

Thai's are the draw obviously, I dont get the argument here.

Well, not exactly.

The cute younger ones that so many gay people want to see in a sauna could be attracted with an AGE based discount program that has nothing to do with race/nationality.

This is a another classic case of SOAKING farangs for the sake of soaking, because they can get away with it. And with so many farangs supporting/defending this kind of race/nationality discrimination, I predict alot more businesses will join the bandwagon. Congrats!

Do the math, lover. Thais make less money that farang, it's not rocket science.

So if a farang announces that he makes less money, does he get the discount too?

No, of course not.

Because the pricing policy is based on RACE/NATIONALITY, and not wealth or income.

The sauna policy promotes "Thai butt"; it punishes non-Thai butt, of ALL ages.

So the 20 year old non-Thai is not afforded the age discount of the young Thai.

Thais are the majority in Thailand! They are not a "lower income" minority group. It is their country for God's sake. Your analogy is completely irrelevant.

I wonder if people think this point is relevant to this issue. The owner of the Sansuk Sauna spent several years in the US. I find it odd that such a person would move back to Thailand and then open a very high profile business that practices race/nationality based discrimination.

Such commercial business policies in the US now would land you in jail and subject to protests and riots.

Look, I know that I am coming off aggressive about this issue. Thats how stongly I feel about it. If an owner has the gall to institute race discrimination in a business, in my view, he bloody well best be aware that these are controversial, and there might be some very unpleasant bad public relations consequences. A business owner of the first large gay sauna in Pattaya, the so called Babylon of Pattaya, is a public figure.

PaulUSA302,

Thank you for your excellent testimony about exactly why this kind of race/nationality based price discrimination is morally and ethically wrong, in any culture. Some kinds of wrongs transcend culture.

There is no moral difference between what happened to you as a boy (overcharged for candy because of your race) and what could happen today at the Sansuk Sauna in Pattaya, when two 20 year olds approach the front desk, one Thai, and one a WHITE Russian. The Thai is waved in for FREE, the Russian must pay the "farang price" of 180 baht. A few minutes later, two 65 years old arrive, one Thai and one a baht pinching pensioner from Wales. The Thai (who happens to own a multi-million dollar tourist trap restaurant) is greeted with a half price discount, while the man from Wales who survives on tuna tins and street noodles, must pay the "farang price", full price.

Price discrimination based on race/nationality. It is just wrong.

Like said before, price discrimination based on AGE for promotional purposes is simply much less odious. It includes the people in that age bracket of ALL races and nationalities for both the discounts and the full price entry. Quite correct, a price promotion system based on AGE only would remove this controversy.

Now Paul suggested boycotting businesses practicing immoral race/nationality based pricing. That is a reasonable course of action. However, in Pattaya, home of the Sansuk Gay Sauna, there is now only ONE gay sauna in town. So consumers wishing to boycott that sauna based on their race based pricing policies have no other place to go in town. So it is appropriate to confront the Sansuk Gay sauna about their offensive, race/nationality based policies directly, rather than boycotting them. (Funny word, boycott?)

BTW, it is a total insult to Thai people to stereotype them as toilet cleaners.

I don't see it as a race issue but an economic one. I am sure a young and attractive backpacker falang could get the Thai price by simply asking someone in management. In doing this, he would be obtaining a discount as a "desireable customer". Bars give free drinks to young and attractive Thais so they will "draw" older and wealthier clients, so why shouldn't saunas attract clientele that way.

I have been told that in Chiang Mai, House of Male Sauna has two for one nights. Busiest night of the week so I hear. Anything that makes the business profitable is OK with me, after all the customer expresses his displeasure by walking out or not going in.

Hi ProThaiExpat,

I agree a private business has the right to seek profits and success by doing what they can to attract the kinds of customers that will attract more paying customers of all kinds.

However, couldn't this be done without getting into the messy area of race/nationality special preferences by just openly offering discounts for ALL young people? Also, in the case of Thai double pricing, this applies to ALL Thais, young and old, rich and poor.

Two for one nights have nothing to do with this issue. That is a totally innocuous promotion. Also, totally age based promotions wouldn't offend hardly anyone.

However, policies that are clearly based on race/nationality, aren't these inheritently cans of worms? If not, why do so many Thai businesses (including saunas) who do practice race/nationality double pricing keep it on the hush hush, and not openly post signs that they are doing this? Perhaps they are ashamed? Isn't the grand old Tourism Authority of Thailand itself proclaiming that this is indeed a national problem?

Another example, suppose your favorite Thai restaurant posted a big new sign saying:

NON THAIS MUST PAY DOUBLE!

How would that make you feel? Welcome? The truth is a restaurant practising that policy would never post any sign like that; instead they would hand farangs a farang menu or have no menu at all.

Acceptance is the key!

Is that why vaseline sales are up!

Pretty much all of the US is now the US - Mexican border, been there lately?

Actually, I didn't mean to link gay saunas and AIDS medication, freudian slip; I just was bringing up one price fits all mean-spiritedness in so many situations. Back to luxury entertainment issues, I think it is a bit much to organize massive public protests because some disco has a ladies night and gives ladies a break on the admission on Thursday nights and how unfair is that? Perhaps, a bit of protest about the war in Iraq would be more appropriate.

Good point, but ...

Pricing promotions based on sex and age are generally less objectionable than pricing promotions based on race or nationality. There are scores of people on this board complaining about double pricing (Thai/farang) in Thailand, but I never heard of anybody complain about a kiddy discount at an amusement park. Thailand is not like the US nor should it be, but for example in the US, this kind of commercial double pricing would be illegal. Can you imagine a nightclub where Mexicans get charged more or less than Anglos? There would literally be violent riots.

Iraq? A worthy topic, perhaps another forum.

I can't help but agree that poorer nations should get lower cost access to medications. But these things are never clean. For example, 50 million Americans in so called rich America have no access to health care, maybe they should move to Nigeria.

Gay saunas are luxury entertainment, not the same type of thing as life saving medications.

But we digress, back to the gay saunas. I don't think it is necessary in this talk about double pricing to link a discussion of gay saunas and HIV because unsafe sex can occur just as easily in a private room as a public sauna.

Interesting, so you think the capitalistic owners of these gay saunas are Thai communists? I am sure they would be pleased.

In that case, do you think they would extend the free entry to destitute 80 year old Welsh pensioners and deny the discount to Thais arriving by Benz?

would be rather nationalist but not racist

Good point. But isn't it true that many Thais consider Thais to be a race?

http://www.thailand-guide.org/arts/index.htm

Towards the end of the 13th century, Khmer power in this area waned and new kingdoms dominated by the Thai RACE developed, including the northern Lanna kingdom. Beginning by nibbling away at the perimeter of the Khmer empire at Sukhothai and in Lanna some 700 years ago, the Thai RACE later established the glorious court at Ayutthaya, and eventually Bangkok. Over the past centuries, many peoples, among them the Chinese, Arabs, Malays and Westerners, have contributed to Thailand's cultural heritage. The Thai race show their appreciation for these contributions with the practise of double pricing. : last sentence a joke!

There is a new gay sauna in town in Pattaya! It is called Sansuk.

Word is their pricing policy is based on whether you are Thai or not.

Younger Thais, free, older Thais 1/2 price, Farangs, full price.

Do you feel this is racist?

While on the topic of double pricing based on Thainess in Thailand, please comment on other gay saunas and whether they practise double pricing or not.

GSM sauna in Bangkok double prices (no prices are posted which is typical but farangs are charged double)

Babylon, no double pricing, correct?

Other saunas in Thailand, double pricing, or not?

It is interesting the new sauna in Pattaya which is positioning itself as the Babylon of Pattaya, feels the need to practise double pricing based on Thainess, which of course many farangs find very objectionable.

Seems to me if the aim is to attract a large pool of younger men, an owner could discount based on age (a common and popular tactic in the US), and not on race, and therefore not have to indulge in the controversial area cesspool of race based double pricing.

"SCB Easy card" Black in colour, with the Cirrus logo.

I have used the same in the US.

However, I do have a question.

For expats returning to their home countries who still have alot of money in Thai bank accounts, do you think there would any problem with draining their Thai bank account with periodic ATM withdrawals of 10,000 baht (equivalent) or do you think someone at the bank would eventually freeze your account?

I think there is a time limit for forwarding, certainly to foreign addresses. One year? There is a site dedicated to these kinds of American expat issues at: http://www.retireaway.com/

Changing eveything possible to online statements is advisable, but many American expats find it very useful if not necessary to maintain a "faux" American address, such as friend, relative, or a mail forwarding service that gives you an address that appears to be a real address (though financial institutions will know it is not and might cause a problem for you).

Yesterday, I went to Bangkok Immigration for my Retirement VISA.

Application TM7,

Bank Statements + Bank Letter,

Copies of my Passport,

1 photograph,

1,900 baht fee.

Walked out, 15 minutes later with the 1 year VISA.

Not bad.

I am going for my first extension of an O visa based on retirement soon. However, I don't have monthly bank statements. Instead, I have a savings passbook which of course shows all transfers with codes, withdrawls, and shows the funds needed have been properly aged for over 90 days.

I am assuming this along with a bank letter will suffice, correct?

Mexico has a retirement visa program whereby if you buy a home (condo or house) you're qualification level is one half as much as if you didn't. Perhaps the OP has heard of that one and got confused. More info on retirement visas to other countries can be found at http://www.retireaway.com/forum/index.php

Great idea for Thailand to do the same, huh?

It makes perfect sense. If you have paid for a home, you certainly don't need as much money to live in Thailand. But since when does perfect logic have anything to do with visa rules?

There is a kind of business that does not exist in Thailand that I believe could be a huge success in Pattaya. Any good location including in or near the gay area.

A San Francisco "Mission District" style BURRITO restaurant. Done well.

The kind where you approach a counter and "build your own burrito" by selecting the meat, type of beans, type of rice, types of salsa, types of toppings like sour cream, cheese, guacamole, lettuce, tomato, etc.

Also, fruit "agua frescas" could be offered using both Thai fruits and traditional Mexican fruits like tamarind. Both being tropical, there are many of the same fruits. If done well, the prices justified could be the same as in the US, about 250 baht for a full featured burrito. This would be a difficult business to do well in Thailand, but the first one to do it would have a built in market of American tourists and expats, and others would catch on. Even the Thais.

Too many people try to do the same same and face stiff competition. How about some original ideas that provide something new that doesn't yet exist in Thailand? I agree British expats are very well served in Pattaya with meat pies and roast dinners up the wazoo. But Americans, while the numbers are less, are really not well served. And I am talking about "real" American regional foods, such as good Mexican food, not McDonalds and such, which represents the absolute worst aspects of American food culture.

I've been through the whole drill and decided that Thailand has the most to offer. The Philippines has poor infrastructure, too much crime and is subject to a lot of natural disasters. The visa situation also leaves a lot to be desired. Getting married so I could stay there didn't sound like an option to me. The Philippines was my second choice to retire. Cambodia also suffers from a poor infrastructure in addition to being squalid, dirty and dangerous. Laos and Vietnam are communist so they were automatically out of the picture for me. The whole of South America is dangerous for the most part and I did take a close look at Mexico. I'm simply not comfortable in muslim countries so that also eliminated a lot of countries. If things here were to go really bad, I'd pack up my Thai wife and head for the USA or possibly New Zealand. Until then I'm convinced that I picked the best place to retire and have no regrets even if it were to go bad. One of the things that irritates me most is that some of the farangs here in Thailand have a vastly inflated view of their worth to Thailand.

I agree the Philippines can be a dodgy choice. But English is widely spoken. I just don't like the overall feel of the place compared to Thailand.

Alot depends on what a particular expat want to do in the country of choice. For retirement, there are so many options these days! And they are not all Thailand. I completely disagree that all of South America is particularly dangerous, specifically Argentina, which has a very easy to qualify visa that easiler leads to permanent residence for retirees with pensions: http://www.retireaway.com/

However, not so easy if just using a bank account. In that case, you kind of have to set up a real business or live on tourist visa runs (don't have sufficient info on how stable that can be, but know people who have been doing it for years there).

I still see the appeal of Thailand. But given the crazy visa situation, I fear the main clientele will over time trend towards masochists.

Was given the O visa only not even having to produce any evidence of savings,bank statements etc.

If it was your first extension ( after Oct 1st), these documents of showing savings or bank acct are worthless with most all Immigration officers in Bangkok. It’s all about the income you and your wife makes, if its more than 40K per month.

Lopburi, you mention that the 3 month requirement has not been a problem for anyone yet. Sunbelt has suggested that it will begin to be enforced November 15. Do you agree? .

Just to clarify, what was said, was new rules would be coming out on the "changing of the visa from a 30 day tourist visa exemption or tourist visa to a non -O visa. That these rules would be the same as the extension of stay. Will they start enforcing the 3 month rule of $ being in the bank for marriage then, don't know.

But this will not affect the extension of stay based on marriage anyway on Nov 15th, because if you had to change your visa then, you don't qualify under the 3 month rule. The three month bank account is only for current extension of stay based on marriage not new ones after Oct 1st. The new applicants need to show the income only.

However on NEW extension of stay based on retirement, they are enforcing the 3 month rule. On previous retirement extensions they are using discretion on a case by case.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks again, Sunbelt, but I am still confused!

You say they will be enforcing the 3 months money seasoning for NEW extensions of stay for retirement. Can you explain this logic to me because I don't get it.

If a new retiree came to Thailand on an O visa, alot of them wouldn't even have a bank account yet! So they arrive in Thailand, open a Thai bank account, transfer the money, and then after 60 days, apply for their extension. They can't possibly meet the 90 day rule on a single entry! In my case, I already had a bank account and I could have met the rule had I KNOWN about it, but this money seasoning rule was announced too late for me to comply. To my logic, it would be the NEW applicants (first time) that would seemingly be entitled to some flexibility on this money seasoning requirement. Also, I still don't get that there isn't a GRACE PERIOD for people who are falling in the cracks of changing rules that require months of planning to comply with.

That whining, aside, Sunbelt can you please answer this question, and SOON (I AM FLYING VERY SOON), as I still don't know what to do.

Do you think this scenario will work:

Arrive in Thailand holding a single entry O visa, and ask officer to stamp me in on a 30 day instead (NOT using the O visa right away).

If that works, leave Thailand for a few days before 30 days.

Re-enter Thailand and then use my (still valid) single entry O visa.

After 60 days on the O visa, apply for the retirement extension based on retirement. For me, by that time, my 800K will have been in Thailand more than 90 days.

My critical decision curve is whether to ask for immigration to NOT use my O visa on arrival at airport (or not). If he does effect that visa, I will not be able to meet the 90 day requirement at the 60 day point of use of the 90 day O visa. In that case, I would be at the mercy of any potential flexibility, or possibly forced to leave the country and get another O visa (which I certainly do NOT want to hassle with).

Please advise soon.

Thanks very much!

Key word "yet". I must have missed that post or read it wrong. But even if true I suspect a temp extension would be logical. I don't believe anyone is out to punish the innocent - but if the balance just went from zero to requirement you might have a more difficult experience.

Thanks Lop, by WHY would anyone logically send almost a million baht into their Thai bank account much in ADVANCE (before knowing about the rule) if applying for a retirement extension for the FIRST TIME?

A non O could be for several reason with different requirements. But do not believe you will see any major change if you have had money in your account. The big change for extensions seems to be the 3 month in account prior requirement but even that has not been a problem for anyone yet. If extension for retirement you do not need a medical now.

Lopburi, you mention that the 3 month requirement has not been a problem for anyone yet. Sunbelt has suggested that it will begin to be enforced November 15. Do you agree? I am in a situation where my funds will not be 3 months old when applying for a first one year extension (retirement) using a single entry O visa, and it would be after Nov 15.

I happen to have been caught in a Kafkaesque black hole, I made plans based on the old rules and now it is too late to comply with the new rules (my money won't be seasoned enough), and have to make a decision very soon based on whether it is really true immigration will show flexibility.

Thaiquila, am I reading correctly that you feel you won't qualify for the retirement visa now only because you haven't had the money on hold in the Thai bank long enough?

If so, then I believe Immigrations will give you a provisional extension of your current length of stay for a sufficient time for you to have held the money long enough. e.g. If you put the money in the bank last month, so only have had it 30 days, they would give you a 60-day extension to give you time to qualify. Mind you, if at the end of that 60 days, if you hadn't met the qualification, you might be facing a 7-day pack-it-up-and-leave extension.

Or, am I totally misreading your situation?

Yes, exactly.

I will entering Thailand on a single entry O visa but by the time I go for the extension (at 60 days) the money will not be in my account for 90 days. I think you are correct based on the CURRENT RULES, but Sunbelt appears to be saying the RULES WILL CHANGE NOVEMBER 15, at which time someone with an O Visa will need to show the money has been there for 90 days, or NO extension.

Of course, these rules aren't really published yet, so I don't know what to do! But I would be projected to apply for my one year extension well after 15 November.

Sunbelt suggested I NOT use my O visa and enter on a 30 day stamp and then CHANGE the visa IN Thailand (which according to Sunbelt I can do BEFORE Nov 15) without seasoned money, and they will then give me some kind of extension stamp until the money is seasoned enough.

Am I confused? Totally. I still don't know what to do and I fly very soon.

My other idea was to enter and NOT use the O visa I have, get a stamp instead, then do a visa run in a month, and enter again using the original O, and then after two months, the money would be seasoned.

Of course both of those options of not using the O assume immigration won't make me use the O.

See what I mean by Kafkaesque?

Maybe I will be needing a WORK PERMIT for all the work I have had to do to attempt to interpret the old rules, the current rules, and the rumoured new rules and how they all relate together?

Jerked around is the Americanism for how I feel.

Thanks.

I think Immigration will be lenient on this new ruling, at least

for the first few months.

Naka.

Yes, some people are saying this, but how is one to really know?

Apparently, Sunbelt Asia who carries lots of cred on this board appears to be indicating the new regulation will be literally applied.

I happen to have been caught in a Kafkaesque black hole, I made plans based on the old rules and now it is too late to comply with the new rules (my money won't be seasoned enough), and have to make a decision very soon based on whether it is really true immigration will show flexibility.