Thaiquila

Dave, well we are in agreement that there are too many red flags to buy it.

However, to clarify the current transfer policy (and Leslie might want to confirm this if he still wants to get involved after reading all these negative comments), yes I did mean 10 percent of the original value of the card when you bought the card. So, yes, 100K baht on the 1 million baht card.

However, on the idea of floating, I think the USED value is floating, but if you should buy a new card, it becomes a USED card immediately, so thus, any holder of the card whether original buyer or transfer buyer is subject to current market value with respect to the open market price (what it will sell for to a private party). I would imagine the original basis of a card with a history would be the ORIGINAL PRICE, but those are the kinds of details that the card company would need to make clear. Of course, the current price of a NEW CARD would have an impact on the value of a used card. For example, if you bought a card for 1 million and new cards are now going for 10 million, obviously it could likely fetch well over 1 million on the private market. So it is kind of like a speculative stock that way.

Anyway, Happy New Year!

I was really looking at this card closely, but I have come to these conclusions about it (and I am the first to admit I could be wrong):

1. The basic idea is very clever and had a lot of potential, both for the sellers and buyers.

2. It was released well before it was ready to be released. As is said in the computer industry "Get out the raid!." : It is full of bugs.

3. What policies and providers that do exist are not clearly communicated (looking at their website) in a believable manner.

4. The guarantee part of the card should have been etched in stone before releasing the card.

5. It is quite obvious that there was little or no test marketing of likely buyers.

Even if we grant that the target market are the true elites, I know from personal experience of knowing some super rich people, that they are not fools! 25 or 50K may be nothing to them, but they expect value for money. They might buy a 25K ring for their girlfriend, but you can be assured they know the gold and diamonds to be genuine.

So, I agree with those who have concluded that this card is a dud. But it didn't have to be. If I were behind the card, I would refund the money to all the buyers, and then GET IT TOGETHER even if it takes a few years, and then rerelease it.

We have received the following official information pack from Christina Dodd.

Christina is an official representative of the Thailand Elite Card Membership Club and is fully authorized to promote and sell Memberships.

Membership Validity:

LIFE TIME

* Transfer fee is subject to a fee equaling of 10% of the membership fee.

I really think you are INCORRECT Dave.

The information I see from the Thai Elite people (see first page of this string) says that you CAN transfer card, but you must pay a 10 percent fee of the sales price.

This means the value of "used" cards will float based on real market conditions, as in, it can go up, or it can go down.

Also, it has also been stated by Thai card people, that the buyer of a transferred cards gets the same goodies are the original buyer, including the 5 year visa.

However, as with anything else related to this card, the policy could have changed in the last five minutes.

And, in no way whatsoever, is this card, plastic and walletsized as it is, in away related to a credit card.

For non-Yankees reading these posts, I guess it is pretty obvious that America is a starkly DIVIDED country. Bush originally ran as a "uniter, not a divider" but he was fibbing. The country is as divided as it was during the Vietnam war, and I can't speak for the civil war era.

Be assured that the upcoming election (most likely Dean vs. Bush) will provide lots of political entertainment. If its any indication of anything, the higher the level of education, the more likely the voter will be for Dean. You might notice that in the intellectual level indicated by most of the pro-Bush posts.

I find it curious that the catchword of the Bush neo-conservatives, such as New World Order, New American Century, Patriotic Act, Homeland Security, Project Iron Hand (or something like that), are amazingly similar to the kind of catchphrases used by a certain party in power in 1940s Germany.

For anyone interested in the ideology behind Bush and the war in Iraq, check this out:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

Anyone have an elite card they would like to sell?

I'll pay 100,000 baht and will throw in some gems and my old Bird cassettes.

This more than covers your transfer fee, so hop to it.

Boy, this string is going all over the place!

Vietnam (the North had the patience to wait 100 years to win, if they had to), Japan in WW 2 (but did they really have to drop the SECOND nucleur bomb?), and Michael Moore (no comment).

Of course American foreign policy isn't all bad or all good, but I stand by my contention that wherever it is, it is for America (or more precisely, the American military industrial elites). So don't get any illusions.

That said, the axis powers deserved to lose in WW2, and Al Queda needs to be stopped, and they do not seem to be much interested in talking over tea. So, in many ways, what we are experiencing now is really a kind of new world war. And the sad truth is, it is not 100 percent certain that Al Queda (not Iraq) will be suppressable. They have the numbers, the rage, the lack of fear of death, and they have the rabid anti-Americanism. So this is all real and it is not going away anytime soon.

This new elite card pricing policy gives a new twist to DOUBLE PRICING. This whole business defies reason, and dare I say, credibility. These rather radical changes in policy (and price) at such an early stage in the card companies existance absolutely does not inspire confidence in the prospects for the future predictabily and stability of the card company and its capability of delivering promises. Doubling prices when sales are slow? It is quite laugh making.

I eluded to this issue in a previous post, but the new pricing change makes it even more relevant:

Whats to stop a non expat from buying the card for 1 mill and then moving to Thailand (instantly making a "plastic profit") of 1 mill baht?

I agree that most established expats would not want to give up legit visas for this card.

I also still think that the real numbers in potential buyers would have been affluent under 50 retirees, who have no other visa option to stay long term. The company is saying that is not the intended market, so what cards they do sell will be to a real elite of sorts. Elite as in a TINY NUMBER. Which is fine, I guess, but I thought they had huge sales goals over five years?

It will be interesting to watch and see what happens ...

Any comments on the Atlanta consulate?

Also, I am baffled by the issue on picking consulates based on the perceived quality/visa friendliness of one over the other.

For example, if someone lives in California, aren't they supposed to apply through the Los Angeles consulate? Is it standard (i.e.: not suspect) to apply to any US consulate you like (for example, someone from California or Georgia appying through Houston)? So you are not required to use one regional one or another based on your current US state residence (if applicable)?

Is that possible to know the names of that 200 card's buyers ?

As for me, I'm selling clouds and I'm quite sure to be successful with the same people...

Adjan

Well, yes, but do the clouds last a lifetime, and can I resell the clouds?

George W. said it best, " You are for us, or against us"

That one really wowed em on the international scene.

As long as we are talking about the Bush, people might want to check out this site for some humorous diversion:

http://www.kaicurry.com/gwbush/dishonestdubya.html

War againt Afghanistan, War against Iraq, War against terrorists. What is next?

As it stands today, US is a country at war, because of him. If he cannot do it, 2004 is the year to elect a better one.

Yes, Bush has been a disaster. The world had great sympathy for the US after the 911 attacks, but Bush has squandered that opportunity.

One point though: there was almost no opposition at all in the US to the Afghanistan part of the war on terrorism. And it would have been the same under any administration. This is because there was no doubt that the previous government in Afghanistan was actively harboring Al Queda, the outfit behind the attacks on the US. There is criticism on the followup in Afghanistan (which seems very weak) now that the focus is in Iraq (which had no ties to Al Queda).

And the sad truth is this: Bush will probably be elected in 2004. Why? Well, the economy is now showing signs of life, the opposition is being painted as unpatriotic for opposing the war in Iraq, and the democratic party doesn't seem able to come up with a strong enough candidate.

On the radio today in California, (related to security measures being up to snuff at airports)

"we are confident about countries like France and Germany, but there is a lot of concern about THIRD WORLD COUNTRIES like THAILAND."

It sounds like a good bit of public relations is needed to convince the world that Thailand is a first world country.

Thaiguila,

Where did you have your head on 9/11?

Propaganda about 9/11 What is there to say. We were attacked! In case you didn't notice.

The US was attacked by AL QUEDA, NOT IRAQ. Even Bush and Condy Rice have publicly admitted this, even though they promoted the myth that Iraq was involved during the prelude to invading Iraq.

I pay taxes in the US. I want our taxes going to fight our real enemies, AL QUEDA. We are not so rich that we can get involved everywhere, look at the massive US deficits, sliding dollar, high unemployment, and REAL THREATS to security from AL QUEDA.

The points about the fluidity/relativity of what is to be considered propoganda are obviously true.

However, there is such thing as some kind of "truth" that is shown after the dust settles. It is often called history. And history also eventually determines which wars were ethically justified wars (from both sides) and which were not. Of course, this isn't perfect either, as history is usually written by the winning side.

And anybody who looks at US history soberly will see that the US does not get involved in international wars for the self interest of other nations. It gets involved in wars for perceived US self interest. But, really, in this sense, the US is just like every other country.

So the case of Iraq can still be argued. But there is no evidence this war was undertaken to liberate the Iraqi people, but if that is a side benefit, that is of course a good thing. It is yet to be determined whether Iraq can form its own reasonable government that does not continue to be disturbing to the West. History shows the odds are against it It seems quite likely the "democratic" choice of their people would be some kind of Islamic theocracy.

Here is my situation, but it would be of interest to anyone who can afford to live in Thailand long term without working, and is not buying the Elite Card (the mother of all tourist visas, so no more dissing long term tourists, please).

I am under 50, US citizen, (with assets that can be documented if needed to suggest that I do not need to work in Thailand) and want to know if it is possible to stay about two years in Thailand using this approach. In reality, I would not be a real tourist; rather, I would be living there in a purgatorial pre-retirement visa state.

1. Apply for a multiple entry tourist visa from a consulate in the US for as many entries as they will give (at least one, what is the maximum number of entries possible to get)?

2. Go for as many 30 day extensions on the 60 day visas as I can get. Is this advisable or might it cause problems if done repeatedly. What is an acceptable to state as a reason on the extension application? Is "continuing trip" be OK? Will these extensions be likely to be rejected if staying the same city (not touring around)?

3. When entries allocated from the US consulate are spent, fly to Penang and repeat step 1. Then repeat step 2.

4. Fly to the US if there is a problem getting a new visa in Penang, and repeat step 1.

I would then apply for a retirement visa at age 50 (assuming I still like the place).

Editorial comment: The age restriction is so arbitrary as there are so many people who can afford to retire under 50 these days, but it could be worse as it recently used to be 55!

Another question: if I wanted to study Thai at a language school during part of my stay, would it be any problem with just doing that and not mentioning that to immigration?

Free cards for everyone, now that's the ticket! Now that would be a happy new year.

Another question about the 5 year visa. If someone buys the card, does buying the card mean that the 5 year visa is automatically issued concurrently? Or, can they choose to wait until later when they are ready to get the visa (closer to travel time if coming from abroad)? Also, whenever the visa is issued, is there a TIME LIMIT for first use of the visa (as is usual for all the other visas I have heard of). In other words, most visas need to be used in a set number of days after the date of issue.

Thanks again for answering, when you get the chance.

The war was sold to the American people and the poodle in Britain as necessary because there was an imminent danger of the the west being attacked by weapons of mass destruction. This was clearly a lie; Bush people knew it was the only way to sell the war. It was never sold as a war of liberation; what country has the bandwidth to militarily overthrow every bad guy in the world? None, of course.

The most likely reason is more on lines with published reports written by American neoconservatives about the need to change the politics of the middle east for the "New American Century." The idea is to hold on to American power and hegemony in this new century, and using military power to do that, not persuasion, economic superiority, or setting an admirable example. This is probably the more likely reason for the idealogues behind Bush than oil. And yes, many Americans are quite patriotic but they don't wish their government to act in this way. But all bets are for Bush to be elected for the first time in 04, and if so, Katie bar the door!

This being said, of course it is humane to have sympathy to the soldiers on the ground and their families who are only acting on the orders of their government.

My hear felt good wishes go out to the families and loved one of the Thai Freedom Fights who made they untimate sacrafice for world peace.

So, please let me know when Iraq invaded the US? Oh, and when did Iraq invade Thailand? Some world peace. Anyway, the Thais are there on a humitarian mission. You will have plenty of time to get your Dubya reeelected, but do we really need this kind of propaganda here?

Hi Thaiquila (and others)...

Just to try to put this program in a more appropiate perspective, I have to start off by saying that this card is clearly not intended for everybody. At best maybe 5 - 10% of the tourists who come to Thailand for a visit, is what the TAT has targeted. The Thai government did not conceive this as a tool to immigrate to Thailand, or is interested in giving away more value than it receives.

Hello Leslie,

I hear you and appreciate you are doing your best at communicating the policies and intentions of the company. As you might expect, I have more comments and questions.

1. Repeat of question about criteria for aproval of buying land/house. Specifically, will there be a prejudice against modest house purchases (for example 2 mill baht)?

2. About the refund anwer, I had heard that there was a policy elsewhere so just wanted clarification. Thanks for that. Its good of you to suggest to your company that there be some kind of refund if promises aren't met.

3. Regarding the target market, well, that is obvious. However, to use an analogy as you are fond of, many people overstretch to buy a Mercedes Benz because they can justify the purchase based on criteria that is very important to them. For example, a real estate broker in a wealthy neighborhood might buy the Benz as an investment to help build the clientele. So, there will be interested buyers to whom $25K is not chump change. Is it your policy to discourage people who do not exactly fit your target market?

4. You state that the card is not meant to be a way for people to immigrate to Thailand. However, I recently read a web article that specifically mentioned that this card would appeal to affluent retirees who are under age 50. The implication is that their main motivation to buy the card is because they cannot get a retirement visa before age 50. I think this is a big potential market. Are you saying the card company is not interested in the business of such persons who see the visa feature as the main selling point? You know, people who haven't golfed a day in their life, and could die happy without it.

5. Regarding your comment about the cost of the expat card going up to $50K in April, what do you mean by that exactly? Do you mean that people who are currently living in Thailand (expats) will be charged $50K while people who are living abroad will still be charged $25K? If so, if a person purchases the card while living abroad for $25K, is there any restriction on that person to then decide to use the visa and move to Thailand? If not, will they then be charged more money when it becomes clear they have moved to Thailand, and no longer reside abroad? Additionally, if a person buys the card before April from abroad, will it be any problem if they move to Thailand becoming an expat (using the visa)?

6. Regarding sales quotas, are these sales quotas or supply quotas? In other words, are there limits on the number of cards which can be sold to resident Thais, residents of US, France, Japan, etc.?

Thanks again for being such a good sport and answering my questions.

I am looking at the Thailand Elite Card and I am quite befuddled. The idea of a lifetime card with lifetime benefits obviously has risk, but the question is how much risk?

So, with regards to the benefits offered by the card: special visa, land purchase priveledges, lifestyle perks (golf, massage, limos, etc) what do the old Thai hands really think? In other words, what do you think the odds are buyers will actually get what is promised in the LONG TERM.

Of course, anyone can post, but it seems to me that the opinions of people who know Thailand really well over many years would have the most credible opinions.

I am neutral about Thaksin personally as I think the US government should also be neutral at best, though I am against anyone anywhere trying to suppress democracy.

History has shown that when the US gets chummy with totalitarian leaders, it usually backfires.

Look at US history and its frequent pattern of supporting of such characters. The classic line is "he is a son of a bitch but he is our son of a bitch" or something like that. The Shah of Iran being the most obvious and tragic failure of this blind short sighted policy.

Of course, there are people who actually believe the US is in Iraq to "liberate" the Iraqi people.

It is quite understandable that Bush and Thaksin would be buddies. Look at the reductions in personal freedoms previously enjoyed by Americans. And the US is also moving quickly towards being a one party country.

Some more questions came to mind. I would like to encourage others to come up with questions, as this is a great opportunity to get more info about the elite card.

1. Is there anything in the law/card contract about what happens to land owners in the event of the card company's becoming defunct? If not, land buyers would be risking a lot more than the cost of the card.

2. Can you detail any refund policies and schedules, if available. For example, if a buyer wishes out of the card after 2 years, is there a refund of some kind, or is selling the card to another person the only option?

3. What is the sales agent structure for people living outside Thailand. Are there quotas for buyers living in different countries, living in Thailand, etc.?

4. Has the company considered the "blank Thai smile" effect. This occurs when entering a business, flashing a card, and demanding a service for no cash. What will the company do to make sure card holders get treated well at these outside businesses.

5. Someone has to say it, but I already know the answer. It would have been really, really, fantastic if such a card was offered at a more reasonable price (maybe half?) that offered ONLY the visa and land buying perks. Yes, there would be more buyers, and they would not be as elite, but Thailand would get getting thousands of people willing to make a "contribution" and show that they are very serious about their commitment to Thailand. Also, the card company would have no risk of being bankrupted by overzealous golfers/massagees. Such mid-level buyers would be very good risks for being solvent and not a burden on Thailand, as they would have paid that money, and put their money into houses. It would of course be a boon to retirees under 50, and retirees over 50 who don't wish to deal with the annual renewal process and also might wish to buy a residence. I know the answer, the card was designed to boost high end tourism, and this middle non-tourist market is not that. Oh well.

OK, thanks Mr. Khun, you have explained (though not clearly) what you mean by how you hope to benefit by waiting for the visa increases.

This is understandable and a quite standard capitalist practice -- buy distressed property (whether stocks, condos, etc.) to get bargains and make profits. We are all playing that big circle of change, sometimes we are the buyers, sometimes we are the sellers.

I think your strategy is interesting. You won't win the Nobel prize though.

A comment on the concept of averages. If the average life expectancy is 70, that means a huge percentage of people will die before 70. Like they say, a recession if when you are unemployed, and a depression is when I am (now, that is 100 percent unemployment). So people who are planning their retirement will do best to ignore life expectancy statistics and take a cold, hard look at their own health, and this includes disease histories of their immediate family. There are websites available that ask a bunch of questions, and give you an answer. If you find that your life expectancy is shorter than you would like, that is an important factor (in addition to money) as to when to choose to retire.

Regarding your disdain and failure to value English language skills, well, it looks like the voters of the US will be agreeing with you about that in the next presidential election.

Its good that you like to laugh a lot, as I hear this is very good for life expectancy.

Cheers.

LESLIE:

"You can purchase up to 10 Rai (up to you), but NOT in bits and pieces all over the country...one 'chunk' of land. You have one (1) year to submit building plans to the authorities, and three (3) years to complete it. There is NO minimum purchase requirement (original website said 20 million baht...currently not so). You also are not limited to just land. If you find the perfect house, cottage, ranch, villa, sweetly calling your name...you can apply for permission to purchase it."

Thanks for all that information. It was very informative and I am sure other people will have more questions. At least, I hope so.

That 5 year visa sounds wonderful and convenient. I am sure, however, that people will wonder about the future. If the government changes their mind, the company goes bust, and then what good is the card 5 years down the road in respect to getting the new 5 year visa (which, after all, is based on the holding the valid card)? So for buyers it is really a matter of hope, trust, and optimism, as it sounds like the company is really not able to offer a guarantee. Still, lots of things in life are bought on this basis. Bigger risks are taken all the time, and bigger money is lost as well. Caveat emptor.

I think what you are saying about land and house ownership is big news. The part about being able to buy different kinds of properties and the lack of a minimum price, specifically. However, this also needs additional clarification. If a card holder wants to buy a modestly price house and land, for example 2 million baht, is the company biased against approving such purchases? What I am getting at here is the concept of "getting permission to purchase it." What are the criteria for granting this permission?

I am also curious about the comment about raising the price of the card. Such talk is often the tactic of slick salespeople the world over to stimulate sales at the current price. I am not saying you are doing that, just making an observation. So my question is, what time frame are you talking about for a potential price increase for the card, and what amount of increase?

Thanks again.

Excellent questions, JB 1!

If the people behind the Thai Visa card collected these questions, reviewed all their policies, and produced a detailed document they could send people (other than the vague, marketing-centric website) and they could honestly address the very valid sales objections suggested by many of these posts, they could sell a bucketload of these things. And if they don't, the market is really limited. Or maybe, as many suspect, this is a frothy too good to be true vapor card.

Anyway, I would like more clarification on the issue of married foreigners.

Lets say the husband buys ONE Elite Card. Does the wife receive a duplicate card (with the same registration number) so that she can go golfing while he is having his nails done? As JB 1 asked, would spouses also get their own 5 year visa, and would BOTH spouses be eligible for all the miscellaneous priveledges (golf, airport, massage, etc.)? And could the spouses travel separately to and from Thailand, with the one "family" card? Depending on the answers to these questions, the card might be even more attractive to married farang couples.

Thanks.