Thaiquila

I never had to show a 'flow' of money to Mexico, and neither did any FM3-ers I knew, across a fairly wide range of places.

I suppose people are 'born' to prefer one place over another ...

It just feels wrong to go on about Mexico on a thai visa site, however,

-- thanks for correcting me, I will have to look into more details on FM3 visa applications if I ever want to do that, just in case you know, I have a friend who has social security pension of 1200 plus can generate over 300 a month in investment withdrawals (just by withdrawing a set percentage of her invested nest egg), do you think they would approve that, seeing as she dosesn't have the 1500 a month in income?

-- I totally agree that liking one country over another is really a matter of temperament, and I also like Thailand a lot better than Mexico.

I read some book once that talked about how when people do the grand Asia tour, some like this country, and some like that country, and what it says about their personality. Forget the book title though, oh well.

People that see something that they do not agree with make snide personal attacks for lack of any good reply.

See them bumming around thailand all the time asking where is the cheapest border run or the cheapest something is.

... just waiting for new visa laws

to take effect. There should be some real bargains to be had. I do not take any of this serious anyway.

There should be some real bargains to be had.

Well, if you can't stand the heat, order your food aow mai phet.

Busted, sorry I do regret lowering myself to the level of personal insults, though you really have to admit, Mr. Khun is rather crafty at BAITING people to react.

So, in the spirit of the season, truce, peace on earth, good wheels for man (hey, pretty good for a non-Christian, eh?)

A few substantive points on Mr Khun's post:

I was talking in the context of retirees being legally allowed long visas based on reasonable finances for within Thailand, not based on what would buy a fabulous retirement on Park Avenue in New York.

I was not talking about impoverished people who have been doing 30 day walkess for years. On the walkees, I am on the side of tolerance, one really does not know the situation or life history of anyone, and you have to think sooner or later, they will be squeezed to another place or worse. Live and let live.

Regarding, how some people are always looking for bargains. Isn't that the nature of capitalism, for there to be different economic levels? Isn't that healthy? If there weren't lots of cheap folks, prices would not be under any pressure. Otherwise, there would no poor people for rich people to hire at slave wages and National Geographic would be out of business.

I am curious for you to clarify your point about waiting for visa bargains. Are you capable of clearly explaining what exactly you mean by that? From all I have read, the visa requirements are trending towards more expensive, not more cheap, so what do you mean?

A couple of responses to Khun (or should we call him Khun Jai Dhum):

I think you need to get to Thailand on holiday, get some nice, relaxing massages, and enjoy the nightlife. Or perhaps, find another line of work that you don't hate so much that doesn't make you so bitter.

You need to chill, dude!

If people want to retire or even retire early with less money than you think is rational, really, what skin is it off your uptight ass? So they crap out, and you get to gloat. Sounds like thats what you live for anyway, so you should be ENCOURAGING it. Instead, you really sound jealous and you really sound like you HATE your workaholic life.

Some other food for thought on retirement:

A huge percentage of people wait too long to retire thinking they don't have enough money or aren't old enough, and then they die before they retire. Were they smart to wait?

The truly wise and lucky among us don't even think about retirement, or care to, because their work gives them joy, satisfaction, and meaning. Hey, this isn't me, maybe next life.

What is better? 5 years of enjoying retirement with lots of money, or 20 years of a retirement lifestyle where money is still a concern. Isn't this a personal decision with no right answer?

In order to get the FM-3 or inmigrante rentista visa, you just need to show a bank statement once a year, just like in Thailand. When last I checked, you need the equivalent of $1500 a month to qualify. You didn't actually have to show evidence of a monthly income, just a yearly bank statement pro-rated to that amount.

As for the 180-day tourist visa, I just returned from a trip to Mexico in November, and I received the standard 180 days at the border, no questions asked.

Thanks for the clarifications and insights about Mexico. I will keep this brief because I don't think this thread is really about non-Thai visa issues, though someone might want to start a new thread about this.

A couple of points on Mexico:

-- The Mex Peso has been stable and WEAK against the dollar, unlike most every other currency, so thats a big plus.

-- I believe you are correct, the current visa requirment is about 1500 month, and it floats based on an arcane formula tied to a multiple of mininum wage in Mexico City

-- The bank account showing proof of support, from my understanding, must show a FLOW of money (for example, a regular monthly deposit), not only a juicy total.

-- I have heard Mex immigration officials temperament varies based on region

-- Yes, many people get a 6 month entry stamp, but there is a lot of info out there saying many do not get the entire 6 months. Also, as an interesting parallel to the Thai visa walker controversy, it is technically against the rules to merely leave the country every 6 months and then reenter for a new tourist visa, though many do and have for years. This does seem to be more problematical; who knows, maybe it is a game being played between Mex Pres Fox and Bush over issues related to Mexican nationals in the US. Or maybe Fox and Thaksin had a chat!

This card interests me because of the visa perks (I am under 50), but if I bought it I would probably be motivated to take up golf.

Can someone verify my interpretation of the visa priveledges with the elite card. It sounds like with the 5 year multiple entry visa you do not EVER have to leave Thailand for 5 years, as long as you pay the 1900 baht every 90 days for the extension. Correct?

The other detail I am confused about is, why only a 5 year visa? Isn't the card a lifetime card? Are holders able to automatically get a new 5 year at end of the first five, and subsequent ones as needed?

Also, is it fair to assume if you sold the card, the buyer would get a fresh 5 year visa?

(Of course, no guarantees for the future, but what are they promising NOW?)

It is all very interesting, but it is obvious that they don't want to sell a massive amount of these; otherwise there would be ironclad guarantees. The market as stated before is for people to whom 1 mill baht is trivial or for those willing to take a questionable gamble.

CAN INE get a word in?

You guys take life a tad too seriously, though I don't doubt interspecies sex is a worthy subject.

Lighten up!

Posting for a friend, as I am rather allergic to pets myself.

Is there a limit to the NUMBER of dogs and cats one can bring to Thailand?

I imagine the airlines might have a limit on the number you could bring on any one flight, but this is more of a question about whether there is a government policy limiting the number of pets a foreigner can bring in (for private pet purposes, not a business).

My friend has four dogs and one cat.

If this sounds excessive, you would be correct.

Two of the dogs are hairy hairless Chinese crested, so perhaps there is a special program for the Asian dogs.

The only real real difference for us was that it is less expensive to live on or near the beach (we are on Phuket) - that's very important to me. 

Yes, they require a pension for retirement status, but many people (North Americans) can stay in Mexico for six months on a simple entry-type visa.  Most go home to visit family and return.

Chuckie, I totally agree with the spirit of your post. Welcoming retirees who can show a reasonable amount of support is a benefit for many countries. And actions that show hostility towards this "clean industry" smack of xenophobia.

However, I want to comment on the current situation in Mexico. Yes, I agree, it is a worthy alternative to retirement in Thailand, and not only for North Americans.

There are some beach areas that have good infrastructure that are similarly priced or even cheaper than Phuket, Mazatlan being a prime example.

Here is the bad news: for US and Canadian people entering Mexico it is no longer a done deal that you will get a 6 month tourist entry. You can ask, but it is not always being granted. 60 days is the common default. People who do not get the 6 months upon entry are then free to apply for an extension in Mexico, but must prove financial support. And you are subject to the same uncertainty every time you enter. Mexico, like Thailand, is having a crackdown of sorts on "tourist visa walkers." Many people still live in Mexico this way, but there is the constant uncertainty. If the officials see multiple Mexico stamps, they will wonder about your finances, and are probably more likely to not grant 6 months. The alternative is to qualify for a retirement type visa based on a pension. That is an excellent choice for those with pensions (approx over 1200/month) and can lead to more permanent visas. There is no way to qualify for a long term visa in Mexico based on a Mexican bank account or investment income -- you need a pension.

Thank you very much, esteemed Doctor P. Pong.

I didn't think it would be so easy to get feedback on these questions.

I also suspected living separately might be a sticky wicket (why, what kind of marriage is this, anyway, an immigration official might ask, and hey you couldn't blame him) ...

but perhaps that is why they make big houses?

OK, lets say that two US farangs were married, with the woman well over age 50 and the man under 50.

This might be a specialized case, but certain of my questions would apply to any farang marriedcouple retirement visa holders.

Lets say the woman qualified for a retirement visa based on age and finances. In this scenario,

1. Could the man be included in the visa package (with no additional financial requirement than for the one visa), even though he is under 50? From what I understand, the answer is yes, but just checking.

2. Does the man receive the same visa information in his passport, and do both passports always go to immigration at the same time?

3. Can both people get multiple entry permits, and if so, do they need to always leave the country together, or can they travel abroad separately?

4. Would immigration care if the two married farangs previously lived together in the US? Would they care if the two married farangs lived together in Thailand? If so, would they need to report residences separately (or would they only care about the woman? Would they care if they did not share the same last name, as long as there was a legal marriage certificate?

5. Would the fact that it is the woman getting the visa with man attached be a cultural/legal problem with immigration? (As I assume it is most often the other way.)

To Khun, the fact of the matter is that different countries are richer and poorer relative to each other. This shifts over time, of course. At present the US is growing poorer and Thailand is growing richer, but it cannot be denied that the US is a much richer nation, and is likely to be so for a few years at least . . .

Some relatively poorer nations have recognized that long term residents can be a beneficial thing. And most have income requirements, and these are usually, and understandably based on the perceived income needs for a person to live in the country of destination, not the country of origin. An excellent example is Mexico, which has welcomed tens of thousands of "gringos" for generations. The government there officially recognizes that a typical pensioner may be on dog food eating income level in New York, but have enough money for a nice house with servants in many parts of Mexico. They see this as a win win situation for the retirees, and for their nation. So I think the notion that income requirements should be set based on requirements in a persons home country are just not realistic, beneficial, or necessary.

To Monitorlizard:

Yes, I agree, some of those countries can be dodgy indeed! Which is another reason I personally prefer Thailand.

It just wanted to put out some ideas; I am curious as to other country ideas if people have them (probably with a new post). The idea I want to put accross is that there are lots of folks from Western countries looking for to improve their living standard by moving abroad, and there are lots of options outside Thailand and SE Asia. And it is not necessary to exist on rice and beans only in Latin America.

There is a lot of buzz that Nicaragua is improving rapidly and welcoming expats. Most retirees prefer the provincial town of Grenada (on a lake) or the beach areas. The financial requirements for a long termer are quite low. The costs are currently a bargain, partly because of bad publicity of wars from long ago.

Panama has even more buzz, and has a great infrastructure, an easy to navigate long term retiree program (also requirements quite low), and if you like hot and humid weather, you will love it. Panama will not allow HIV pos individuals on this program. Panama is affordable, probably more pricey than most parts of Mexico though.

Costa Rica is now very expensive! They have phased out their retiree visa program, though there are ways to stay (visa runs?). The buzz is bad.

Mexico is very good, with great variety. The retiree program requires a pension (amount always varies, currently USD 1200/month). Mexico is affordable outside the famous beach resorts.

Anyway, I think the cliched advice that if you move you should NOT move only because a place is cheap is quite sound. I, like many, am most attracted to Thailand for a complex variety of reasons, and it certainly isn't the cheapest place.

Khun, hey well, how very inflammatory.

Not every one wants to make the sacrifices required to be, has had the good fortune to become, or needs to be rich, whether or not they stay in their home countries.

And many people get to a certain age, or have to quit work for countless reasons, and they are not rich enough to retire in the South of France, but they have way more than enough for the South of Pattaya.

Many people are happy to have enough to cover their expenses to be comfortable and also have a reasonable reserve.

Based on my observations, 800K baht a year is enough for most single people to support themselves in a reasonable style in most parts of Thailand, save for expensive parts of Bangkok and Phuket, etc. If a foreign national gets into trouble, it certainly won't be the Thai government bailing them out, so such people are most likely to be sent back to their home countries (many western embassies provide emergency loans for this purpose). In most cases, even washed out people will be able to raise the price of the air ticket back to their home country.

Of course, the government of Thailand can choose to set the requirement higher if they wish; higher than is really necessary. However, I don't really see the point of stopping some thousands of idle, solvent foreigners from finding a pleasant retirement destination in the sun. Who do they hurt exactly? It seems a shame.

However, if that is the way it is going, there are other countries that are more than glad welcome such people, and gain some easy hard currency in the bargain. And, you know, 30 baht to a dollar is not really so bad!

Egads, well, I guess it is a sign of the times.

There is a big surge in absurd anti-French propoganda among the IDIOT CLASS in the United States. You know, such absurdities as tossing out French wine (give it to me, please!), calling french fries "freedom fries" (yes, of course, they are Belgian anyway), and such. Also, the right wing Bushies are going so far as to call France an enemy nation, because of their governments thoughtful, rational opposition to the invasion of Iraq.

Please do not take such an email personally. The US is going through a bad time, and is now controlled by neo-fascists. I have no doubt your emailer is one of these Ameri-trash stupidos.

Also, please realize that about half of the people in the US are horrified by this situation, and doing our best to make a change, but the odds are against us.

Viva la France! And Viva America too. Someday, we will swing back to rationality. Hey, if Germany could, so can we. :>

Let the flames begin!

Still many countries close by that will accept most fall throughs. If cheap living is a must why not Loas or Cambodia they need the funds.

You would still only be a stones throw away for your tourist days.

From what I understand, Laos and Cambodia are not reasonable alternatives for people of retirement age who need easy access to good quality health care.

Thailand does have special qualities that make it very attractive to retirees.

I don't know about Myanmar, but do they currently have a legal way to stay long term as a retiree? Also, I would doubt they have quality health care.

I agree that making long term stays prohibitive is throwing the baby out with the bath water. A retiree who qualifies based on a 800K deposit is probably spending between 500,000 to 1 million baht a year IN THAILAND. If that requirement is doubled and Thailand loses those residents who don't wish or cannot afford to tie up double that in a Thai bank, it is a loss to the Thai economy. Not an earth shaking loss, perhaps, but as they say, why kiss a gift horse in the mouth?

Anyway, for those looking for affordable retirement alternatives to Thailand, you might want to look outside of Southeast Asia.

Most of these affordable countries have reasonable ways to stay long term:

Panama (excellent infrastructure)

Nicaragua

Mexico (requires an actual pension, not savings based)

Malta

Peru (visa runs needed)

Equador

Dominican Republic

Belize

However, I should point out, it is quite difficult to get Thai food in any of these places! I met an Indian in the Dominican Republic who had been there so long he considered Mexican food an acceptable replacement for Indian food. Guess it shows humans to adapt to most anything.

I don't have the answer to this, HOWEVER, your question implies another related question, which I would like to add.

If you get a 60 day tourist visa, and your roundtrip air ticket has you coming back in 90 days, you don't really have a visa that covers you for the entirety of your stay. So I wonder if AIRLINES might not let you board if your visa does not cover your whole intended stay.

This must be a pretty common thing for people to do (buy a 90 day return with intention of extending). so hopefully, the experiences are out there on this board.

There is of course the matter of the Thai officials looking at your air ticket when entering Thailand, but that rarely occurs, and you could always say you will be applying for an extension.

I realize the answer to this question is probably no, but, anyway, here goes.

Does anyone know of a web resource of what pharmaceuticals are generally available in Thailand, which have generics, and what the rough market prices are for the meds.

From my American point of view (we are being raped by the pharmaceutical companies here and millions of people are resorting to buy meds in Mexico, Canada, etc.), this would make interesting and useful reading.

That's interesting.

Are you specifically saying on good information that the annual financial requirements for a retirement visa (for new applicants) will be 1.5 million baht beginning mid 2004?

In other words, is this a done deal?

I am still short of age 50, so that's bad news for me, but have a good friend who might want to rush to beat the increase.

Regarding the issue about whether expat wannabes are welcome to post on this board, well, I find the notion that they would not be welcome to be patently absurd.

The board is about VISAS! Meaning we are almost all foreign (as in non-Thai) nationals, whether we wish to move to Thailand in 20 years, or have lived in Thailand 30 years.

As long as we are concerned about VISAS, we are in Thailand (when we are in Thailand) based on the laws of the Thai nation. And tourist visas are visas too; and 30 day stamps are a type of ersatz visa, so there!

A while back, there were some reports that the required amount of yearly resources would go up to 1.5 million baht from 800,000.

Any new information on whether this is still going to happen in the forseeable future? As it didn't happen as part of the package of visa fee and requirement hikes, is it overly optimistic to think that the previous reports were just plain wrong?

Thanks folks. These are some gem tips and should be enough to get us started.

I would have never thought to check out an AA meeting, but that sounds really brilliant. I do wonder if we would be welcome there as we both are lighter social drinkers without a problem with it. (Might be hard to believe with my handle Thaiquila.)

A friend and I will be visiting Chiang Mai soon. I have been several times as a tourist and my friend is a newbie. We are both looking into Chiang Mai as a place to move to (on retirement visas).

Any locals have any ideas about neighborhoods or AREAS of town (including outskirts) to look at that would be good places for farangs to rent (either condos or houses). So we don't need any basic tourist info.

I have noticed before the area on the Riverside Restaurant side of town has some pleasant looking (and expensive looking) housing, and also lots of stray dogs. I also once saw an area kind of near the snake show outside of town reputed to have lots of farangs living there in houses (anyone know the name of this neighborhood)?

We are not looking for Farangtown per se, more like an area where there are at least some farangs, and housing available for rent that would not be 100 percent culture shock (western toilets, etc.).

Aside from neighborhoods to look at, other insider expat info would be helpful. For example, my friend wants to look at Chiang Mai Ram hospital to get an idea of the health care available; do you recommend this or other hospitals?

Thanks in advance for any edification.

That would make perfect sense.

Maybe this guy has a local card and it stopped working for him (in English) and he jumped to paranoid conclusions. Or perhaps it just another rumor. Rumors are like that, so that is why I am asking about it.

If it is true, it would be a great marketing tool for courses about reading Thai script!

I am in the US now, but I have word from a credible source (a friend who's brother has been an Thai expat for decades) that as an expression of anti-Western feeling (no doubt related to reaction to the Iraq war), some bank ATMs are dropping the English language option from their screens. He says this is happening in provincial south Thailand.

Is there any truth to this? I understand some banks never had English in the first place, so I am talking about a movement to drop English.

If there is truth to it, is it going beyond provincial south Thailand?

I am planning a stay in the Khao Lak area and the info on bungalow operations there is rather dodgy. I suspect some of the info on the web is sponsored promotions and the area is not covered well in guidebooks.

So, if you have been there, can you tell me about your experiences at your bungalow (and the name of it), good or bad? Would you recommend it or did you see a better place? I am looking for mid level places (1000 - 1500 high season).

Thanks. :cool:

Thanks very much for the insight.

Obviously, there are cultural differences on the full cup of coffee thing. In California. it is common to be asked "room for milk?" without any prompting at all, and if no, you get a full cup of black coffee. Don't lattes usually come as a full cup?  So maybe it is as much about the presumption of adding milk than the fear of hot spills.

In Thailand, the default fill for a black coffee is about 2/3 full which is really silly if you are not using milk; this leaves a huge space. Thus, I have indeed often resorted to ordering  two cups at some places to meet my requirements.

Can you please romanize these Thai phrases? I will definitely try this out!

"For a full cup, you would say something like: "เอากาแฟร้อนถ้วยเดียวให้เต็มด้วยครับ" (One full cuppa jo please). Then repeat ให้เต็ม or ให้เต็มเต็ม just for emphasis."