Saradoc1972

Here’s the top ten rankings, along with the number of countries they can enter visa-free:

1. Germany (177)

Great. Now I just need to win the lottery or be really successful with some go-fund-me-scheme to use my newfound superpowers...

And can my passport please be enhanced to grant me residency in Canada or NZ just in case it won't be so nice in Germany anymore in some 10 years from now?

But many migrants are reluctant to leave, afraid that they will be detained or documented.

But campaigners say there is not enough new accommodation and many migrants have refused fearing they’ll be forced to claim asylum in France instead of the UK which is their preferred destination.

Isn't that the obvious solution then?

Round them up with riot police and/or the army, document their identity with everything there is, fingerprints, footprints, DNA, retina scans, voice samples, and explain to them it's is either asylum in France (should actually have been Greece or Italy) now, or it's nothing, Britain would deport them back quicker than they can say "asylum" after that.

It's what always happens with mass-migration. In the 2000s it was Polish and Ukrainian girls being coaxed to Europe with job-offers and ending up on brothels, start of the nineties it was Albanians ending up in Mafia-brothels in Italy. I don't know about total numbers with so many people abusing the situation and registering under up to 20 names and several nationalities, but it would have been no small miracle if things like that were not happening with this totally unorganized mass-influx.

There is nothing to fail to understand about this. That referendum is quite probably legal in Hungary, it is not legal within the EU's legal framework.

What Orban is doing here is putting his foot down, as have the rest of the Visegrad states and Austria, on an issue he is not going to accept.

The EU, or at least those states trying to impose their views on (Muslim) migration on the rest, thankfully ever fewer in number, best heed that wjen proposing common policies, or it won't be any consolidated EU action on that crisis for years to come, instead it will be life bullets on the borders, which is what they have so been trying to avoid.

Probably just a case of s.o. "going postal".

Love that idiom.

so send the sticky ball to Greece!

how many migrants Greece in its current stage of economy can handle?

so as someone stated, they will open their gates not ajar but fully open soon. And it is their right.

They won't be able to handle, because reserves of third-world migrants are unlimited. Which every state of Europe has by now realized, even Sweden who were acting even more stupid that Germany, silenced by ideations of political correctness. Which is why those states enacted border controls and got the Balkan states to stem the flow and stop waving those migrants through.

Unless there is a Turkish miracle within the next 2 weeks or so, Greece WILL open its borders or rather just stop caring. By that time, armed border controls by sensible European states need to be set up in earnest.

I don't know what the buzz is about passport controls. I remember driving over several European borders as a child with my parents in the 70ies and 80ies and it used to be a 10 min holdup, if any, customs waving us through without even a look at our German identity cards. It won't so much be passport controls, even today you are more or less required to carry some sort of official identification in the Schengen area.

It's just that you then can have a look at who is coming to your country or leaving it. It's going to boil down to "ethnic profiling" but I suppose there is such a majority of states now not bothering about that PC crap, it'll just be done that way, no matter what some aloof courts say. Which is btw what Denmark has been doing all along over the past couple of years. They had already introduced systematic border controls before this migration drama and just did not care about Schengen and the EU, kept it low profile but they did it. Pulled a lot of Roma thieves out of the general traffic with cars full of loot from burglaries that way.

It's refreshing to see some EU states just won't hold with the PC stupidity that's been replacing common sense and actually look after their own populace. Same with Britain btw who don't want to see their social systems plundered, with Germany apparently going to piggy-back in that respect.

And, of course, neither SPD nor CDU will join AFD because they are so evil right-wing populist they demand half a year early all the things the ruling coalition legislates half a year later.

Did you read fully the AFD Program?

If not, read it.

There are only certain mass media painting here the "right devil" on the wall.

The ever-growing membership are civil people who have dropped out of the established parties.

The party is committed to the interests of the Germans.

Full commitment to the constitution.

Wrong tree, preaching to the choir!

I have read that party program, I consider AFD a democratic party, I am actually all in favour of them.

That said, I'd like it still better if CDU were to come round and get back to realistic politics in a position were they don't have to compromise as much with other parties. I.e. without Merkel.

That post was sarcasm as some posters here think AFD were xenophobic, evil, extreme right and whatnot, so I pointed out they are habitually lambasted for demanding the same-self things the non-evil ruling coalition then puts into law, much belated.

The problem is who came to Germany, namely mostly unskilled labourers. And that term too goes for most people who might have been considered skilled workers in the third world country they hail from.

If there is no apparent shortage of unskilled labourers in Germany (and there isn't - we got our own home-grown high-school dropouts), those are the majority competing for jobs paying minimum wages, what was all this talk about refugees being a boon for Germany in that they would provide much needed labour?

Apart from that I am totally opposed to conflating immigration and asylum, I still don't get it and I don't see how that is going to end well.

Her mistake was in thinking she could browbeat, cajole and intimidate other sovereign EU member states into doing what she told them they must.

Spot on. I think the German public have woken up and that will be shown in 2017.

Nah, looks like Christmas will come early. There will be elections in three German states in March 2016, and in two more states later that year.

And in Saxony-Anhalt it looks like they won't even be able to form a grand coalition if newcomer AFD only gets the votes the polls indicate, and they are thought to be too low.

And, of course, neither SPD nor CDU will join AFD because they are so evil right-wing populist they demand half a year early all the things the ruling coalition legislates half a year later.

I'd have to say I'm, all in favour of that emergency brake, just not only for Great Britain, but especially for Germany.

It's not just the UK that had loads of Romanian and Gypsy immigrants on welfare, workfare and in the health system. And obviously on child benefits in excess of what a normal worker can earn down there a month, for each single child that is. So that would need to be indexed.

But apparently the East Europeans won't consent to that solution being applied universally, I wonder how that regulation came into being in the first place. Hard to get rid of now.

Everyone should send refugees straight through to Germany until Merkel says enough.

No more. Until then send them directly to her. This flood is entirely of her making.

The first is exactly what has been happening all along, the second has been tried.

Namely a Bavarian district president put some volunteering refugees on a bus and had them driven right in front of the chancellery in Berlin, 500 km.

Merkel wasn't happy about it, but did nothing to change politics; she told him he actually should bus those refugees to Greece, but then they would just walk right back up to him again.

Which firstly shows Merkal still dreams of a European solution that will not come. She lost her last allies with Sweden (where stupidity and denial of reality took went to such length that civil war is just round the corner with natives crying they want their country back as they know it and forming militias) and Austria, along with the more reluctant followers from Holland and France.

Secondly, it shows helplessness, as she apparently sees no way to prevent any given number of unknown people crossing half a dozen European countries illegally. Which apparently does not serve to make her realize she's been totally on the wrong track.

Oh, and it's Frau Merkel. Actually Dr. Merkel. "Herr" means "Mister".

Well, looking at pictures I'd say it's "Herr" then.

Used to be much worse, believe me...

Herr Merkel and the UN won't like this. You better get permission from mom and dad first.

I don't give a hoot what the UN want unless it's got to do with refugee camps somewhere far away from Germany.

Denmark has already called for the 1951 convention to be overhauled in line with mobility of refugees in modern times, which rubbed UN the wrong way but who cares?

Oh, and it's Frau Merkel. Actually Dr. Merkel. "Herr" means "Mister".

Even by Middle East standards, Erdogan is a character. Seems like each and every foreign relations interaction is not complete without the (not so) surprise flip.

So yes, playing his hand with the migrant/refugee crisis is all very well - but could be done more diplomatically, and could have been handled without the drama.

As for the money recently promised by the EU - was that a one-time or an annual thing?

Building fences, locking up gates and manning the walls - alright. What's next? Ultimately, these measures do not solve the issues, merely manage a crisis situation. If the EU does not wish to turn into Fortress Europe, with all that it entails, there ought to be some thinking on how best to affect the situation in regions whence migrants/refugees arrive from. But with the EU policy seemingly comprised of knee-jerk reactions ( let the migrants/refugees in, pay off Turkey to deal with it, close borders, open borders....) it is unlikely that any such long term efforts could be seriously discussed, nevermind implemented.

Erdowahn* is the autocratic nutter-in-chief at Europe's borders. I almost wonder how he was not getting along with Assad.

Actually, Greece threatened the same thing when the bail-out over the Euro-crisis was under discussion. Some MP and the minister of finance said they could issue their 200k migrants Schengen-papers. In Germany that was dismissed because "the wrong minister" had made that threat. Might have been a cue for politicians around here to think about securing some borders, just in case.... but no.

That 3 billion € is for the next 2 years, more is sure to follow, if this is even final for the time being. Actually, Turkey has a point. I mean they have taken in 2 million and nobody seemed to care, just like nobody cared when Greece and Italy were inundated with Africans. And while life down there is much cheaper, they don't get so much cultural trouble with their fellow-Muslims, and their economy is agricultural and mostly much simpler than the German, it's all a bit much for them. On top they realized those people are going to stay for years, and Turkey is pretty nationalistic and used to be ethnically rather homogeneous, discounting the Kurds. They have their own lower standards regarding accommodation and everything, e.g. they have not so much bothered setting up schools, which made Saudi Arabia step in, just on their own terms, the usual. If you ask me, that is where a lot of money should go from the EU, in its own best interest.

I hope he whole issue will make Europe think about its borders and how to stymie and funnel migration. This is just a prelude of what is to come in the next decades with half a billion of Africans losing their livelihood. If that asylum business and the situation on the Meds is not remedied, there will be nothing left to take refuge.

* might be just my spelling, but "Wahn" is German for "lunacy"

If it is not about stopping or pushing back refugee boats, you might as well forget it. We know there are smugglers at work and we know they only ever catch the minnows and those will be replaced faster than they can get the old ones into custody.

What is needed here is stopping people from embarking in Turkey, and those caught traversing or rescued after slitting open their own dinghies need to be returned without exception. Only way this game of cat and mouse can be ended.

This Stoltenberg fellow btw happened to be the German minister of defense under Kohl in times of yore until he got kicked out over something wrong with tanks... getting axed is an occupational hazard for German MODs

The desperation that Merkel is now displaying is obvious for all to see. She should be removed from her position as soon as possible.

She has asked for NATO help. NATO have not responded.

Hardly surprising as refugees is not NATO's remit.

However this could be a tacit way of Merkel saying what has been previously called a Refugee / Asylum Seeker / Migrant issue can no longer be called this and is in fact, an illegal invasion by a civilian force intent on the destruction of civil society.

Interesting times lie ahead.

Germany and Turkey can both call for consultations of NATO under Art. 4, when territorial integrity, political independence, or security of a member state is threatened.

In so far this refugee business might be a NATO remit, it's along the lines of what you say. I don't know how NATO will come into play here, but calling this affair an emergency of that sort of magnitude might be a step in the right direction, because it is. And maybe NATO can deliver an understanding the EU has failed to deliver with every single state looking after itself.

Grouse, on 09 Feb 2016 - 11:56, said:

Obvious answer is no fly zone enforced by NATO as far South as Aleppo

Fixed

And this will help stem the flow of refugees, who are coming mainly from Turkey by boat how ?

In that they won't matter anymore because then we have a direct confrontation with Russia.

Russia has sworn to stand by Assad because it's they direct link to some oil and gas-fields down there and hinted at the

potential of a NATO engagement turning nuclear when Obama drew the red lines he then never bothered about.

The Russians had seen it once when their former ally Libya suddenly got attacked by NATO, they'll not stand for it again.

And they did it.

Shifted some 45.000 cubic meters of silt, waited till the tide during the new moon when the Elbe was 1,20 m higher, and that was that.

Will probably have a good look at her keel while she is being unloaded and reloaded, but she is free to go.

We have managed to put ourselves fully at the mercy of an autocratic figure like Erdogan.

3 billion Euro? Yes, per year. Or else. Article in The Guardian

And accession-talks with the EU. Ridiculous, this has been going for 20 years and not been suspended for nothing.

So much for the European Union as a global player in politics, Euro or not.

But it won't matter. When Turkey finally forces its way into the EU, the latter will just go boom anyway.

That's how it's supposed to work. If you count Gaza as a place to flee from.

The tolerance for child sexual abuse in Iraq is dealt with rather quickly. When I worked there, a man was accused of abducting, raping and killing young boys. The boys were all from displaced families, who were pretty universally not liked. The man had a trial in the morning and was taken out and shot within minutes of being found guilty.

Unfortunately, it appears that they got the wrong guy because a day later another abduction, rape and murder occurred.

The point is, it is not acceptable where he came from and if he were sent back, he most likely would face very, very swift justice.

Apart from that cases having been murder on top and on an ongoing basis... would it have been the same if the victim had been a non-Muslim? Was the outrage about raping a child or the fact is was a boy, i.e. because of the ingrained homophobia in those countries?

Muslim societies kind of work because of social, i.e. peer-pressure, and a socialization to care for Muslim brothers ans sisters. Not that the latter always works, same as here.

And the salient point here is "swift justice", which they know they don't have to fear in Western countries.

(Not that I am advocating death penalty or whatever has been mentioned on this thread, but it shows we're standing here empty-handed)

I mean there always has been criminality round those events, lots of drunk, brawling, pick-pocketing, singular rapes, it used to go through the justice system around September/October. But it used to be isolated crime, and not of that deliberate aggressiveness. There is one Greek-German police officer Tania Kambouri who wrote a book on what this country had been coming to, how police got treated and disrespected especially by Muslim clientele and how Germany had imported criminality with them.

Criminality destabilizes a society, people will not complacently abandon their way of life.

You make it sound almost as good as the Full Moon Party. Which also is infested with loud, rude foreigners seeking cheap drugs and sex.

Oh, you've seen it for yourself? Cologne or Düsseldorf?

Nah, those are the engineers, doctors, and skilled workers.

Correct.

And what happened here was they got themselves a pilot, someone who had been captaining his own ship for at least 2 years, been studying river Elbe for some 8 months, and had at least 5 years of experience as a pilot as things are run in Hamburg for that big a ship, but the rudder seems to have jammed.

So the pilot had the captain run the thing aground in the northern part of the river where it will be no obstacle to shipping lanes in a controlled manner. Can't just stop a 160.000 ton behemoth, it will run for kilometers.

They "parked it on the side-lane", so to speak".

They are trying to wash out the silt underneath it with a specialized vessel, the only word in English I could dig up is "hydraulic erosion dredger", that's quite a mouthful. Should be OK within the week.

In that case It sounds like the Pilot did an incredible job and must have kahuunna's the size of Jupiter. Most mere mortals would have backed away from such a decision.

Apparently one of many standard procedures. Hamburg is an old Hanse-city, they've been doing things literally for centuries.

But a job well done.