Saradoc1972

Can everone please stop the "Thailand-has-gone-crazy-how-can-they-do-that-to-their-valued-tourists-woe-is-me" posts?

These are not helpful.

There is NO NEW CRAZY LAW and the age-old-regulations everyone rants about do not concern most of us. Period.

DO READ my lengthy post above, it should settle most any doubts on what this is all about. Took me more than an hour, damn it.

What we should be trying to find out together is IF some sort of long-term residency might factor in so this COULD become a problem for SOME of us, and how to get our ducks in a row in that circumstances.

Otherwise this thread is meaningless, so let's all try and pinpoint the factors that might prove problematic.

Well, I may be a special case, being on a state pension and all...

But I just emailed my German pension slip to a translation office, originally aking for a translation, and I what got back posted to my German address was a writ by the German embassy to Bagkok to immigration I was receiving this or that amount in annuity.

Easy.

Served me well in getting a Non-Imm-O M.

Can't tell you about the fees as they duly translated my two degrees with the same order for 140 € altogether, but... easy.

.

Besides, how do you define a visitor? Someone visiting the country once a year for a few weeks, twice a year for a few weeks each trip, 3 times, 4? In Canada is pretty clear, if you're not a citizen or a PR, then you're a visitor. [/snip]

Yep, that is exactly my question.

I suppose most people coming to Thailand will NOT have to worry about anything, stop the scaremongering.

But there might be some snatches once you take up some sort of residency (see the quote on Non-Imm-O holders with used household goods), and the same will probably go for Canada and Europe.

Might be for TV's "ask the lawyer", but I struggle with how to word this as the whole topic is a bit diffuse.

Ok folks, I am after browsing through that other post. Translation legalese to English below:

This is an OLD regulations that has been in effect for a long time. The press just reported on customs' intend to be more strict about it.

It will affect mostly Thais leaving Thailand and returning from abroad with some goodies they bought there. The customs-exempt value is 10k Baht, more or less in line with that for most Europeans returning to their home country after a vacation with their souvenirs (i.e. "new" goods, even if you have worn all shirts that Thai tailor made for you while you were there). Here it's 350 €, the UK apparently raised that a little.

So that is the limit where you won't be taxed at all (I'll be using "taxed" here referring to both import sales tax and custom duties). There obviously is a leeway in that customs won't know if you bought something abroad, especially clothing, so you can in practice get away with much more. The rule would not apply to things a traveller is assumed to have taken out of the country first when going on that vacation, e.g. your suitcase. There is much discretion here for customs, they will normally not bother with that stuff, in theory they could.

On the other hand they might doubt the watch you are wearing was an old hand-me-down from grandpa and assume you bought it new abroad, that's what the "certificate of identity" is for. And it would be "new" in this context even if you bought a used watch from someone abroad as there have never been any import duties been levied on it in the country you are "importing" it to. A really expensive watch would be worthwhile for customs to bother with, as opposed to your run-of-the-mill suitcase in the shape it leaves the conveyor belt.

THEN (second step) there is the 80k or 100k Baht limit under which all the "new" possessions you are bringing along will be "taxed" by a flat rate. That is because both evaluation of an object and it's classification under customs' schedules are a major hassle, open to appeals and all. So in the name of expediting procedures they'll slap a low flat rate on everything you brought along.

THEN (third step) if your "new" take-alongs (or those suspected to be new for lack of that certificate) exceed that 100k, there will be a full evaluation and categorization. Major hassle.

So for most of us western-looking obvious tourists there will be no difference from the hitherto practice, it's for Thai residents (and that might be the catch).

Mind, that all of this only affects personal effects, i.e. NOT the power tools you might need for your (hopefully legal) work in Thailand, NOT gifts brought along for Thai residents (the latter would obviously be difficult to discern from your personal gadgets). And you need to bring them along in your luggage IN PERSON, i.e. when you have them shipped to your Thai address a completely, totally different set of rules will apply.

Those limits will NOT go for a few select items subject to some sort of luxury tax, like alcohol, coffee, tobacco and petrol, for which there are different limits and the duties will be very high in the first place. (There are German cases of people having been indicted for mail-ordering coffee-pads from the Netherlands or cheaper cigarettes from the Czech Republic to be sent to Germany without notifying customs in writing, all inside even the EU. Petrol is exempt if it's in you car's main tank when crossing the border. Just examples, but you're beginning to see the joy of this.)

Those limits are meant to faciliate and expedite handling tourists, they will NOT go for merchandise you take along on your person, even if entering as a non-Thai reseident tourist. The decisive factor for that would be the quantity you take along in your personal lugage. I've seen a TV coverage on some Chinese visitors to Germany being singled out at customs for taking some 20 kg of novelty jewelry with them, some 600 pieces, and that spelt trouble as it was not deemed "personal effects" for obvious reasons. Those where merchants dodging customs.

"Carnets" are another story. It's when you register an item you bring along with customs and put down bail on the promise you'll take it outside the country within a given period.

Now, what that former thread, full of gibberish and misunderstandings, does NOT tell us, is who is customs-wise a "resident" of Thailand for whom those rules will apply. So that is open to discussion.

There are some leads http://www2.customs.go.th/Customs_Eng_2009/importing_used_secondhand_household_effects.jsp on Thai customs' webpages on that residence issue, with regard to relief for used(!) household goods, such as TVs or fridges.

It does e.g. state that even non-residents bringing such goods along will have to go through customs with them, and Non-Imm "O" travellers will not get that relief.

So, open for discussion: if you are e.g. a long term "non-resident" in Thailand, on your ED visa, a non-O, been working some 5 years here, will you still be allowed to take most anything along from your travels into the country tax-free, like tourists do? Can you do that even when entering for the first time on a 1-y-Non-Imm-O?

Anyone?

How does a degree in Economics help one to be a more effective English teacher? I'm not trying to put down people with degrees in economics. I have a degree in economics. I just don't think it made me a better English teacher. Yes, it shows that I had the persistence to finish a four-year degree and write papers and take exams. But taking a four week TESOL certificate course made me a much more effective teacher.

It probably will. Not directly, but indirectly, as I lined out in the bottom half of my post #102.

It will not mean you'll be a better teacher than anyone lacking a degree, it's no guarantee you'll be a great teacher at all.

But the probability of you being in the upper percentile of all the people taking that TEFL/TESOL and starting teaching is much higher for those qualities you listed above.

The Thai border post will in all likelyhood not allow you to leave if you will not be allowed entry on the other side of no-man's land, e.g. when your passport's validity is under 6 months for Laos or Cambodia. So that should not happen.

As you are German, you can more or less always get a visa-exempt entry back into thailand at least for the 7 days when you've already done an out-in, when you can prove your need to make arrangements for onward travel.

If, however, you illegally cross a border (and hence get no exit stamp) this will probably spell trouble, as you would have entered the other country illegally and hence might face their deportation procedures including detention. Don't do that.

There was a post on this forum about an Irish couple who found themselves in detention because they had unwittingly flouted the exit requirements and had unknowingly got themselves faked stamps in their passports. Major, major hassle, embassy, defense attorneys and all.

Even better, does anyone have the LAWS, preferably in English.

I still don't know what makes a tourist and what makes a resident. I don't think any of this is about tourists, but not all of us may be.

"Certificate of Identity" Where to obtain...?

Customs. At the airport. Take some steps to identify your watch, maybe it's got a serial number. Take photos to attach to whatever form they have as you don't have papers.

Sorry, I'm a bit preoccupied sorting out the German regulations right now, and I wouldn't know where to begin searching for the Thai ones. This is difficult stuff and I'm making a point to know precisely what it's all about.

I am afraid it's no absurdity, it's the law... well, depending on where you're going. I am no expert at customs but if you were e.g. a German citizen the maximum amount of take-alongs bought abroad brought to your home country (place of residence??) will be 350 €. Otherwise you got to declare, and they will tax you.

It happened to prized German goaly Oliver Kahn, when he was caught carrying clothes, watches, and what-not from his journey to Dubai in the amount of 25.000 Euro (new goods obviously). Got him criminal proceedings and a fine of some 300.000 Euro (obviously based on his meager income).

That's why I found some post above so interesting about that "certificate of identity" (German: Nämlichkeitserklärung). Maybe you should get that for your watch before travelling. It shows that you "exported" (not meant as a legal term) the thing from Thailand and so there will be no import duties when you return to Thailand.

What I don't know, however, is what having to pay or not to pay import duties will be based on when you enter a country as a "tourist", and what will be the limit for falling under that definition. Obviously a lot of people from wealthy countries enter their holiday destinations with a lot of stuff, e.g. cameras, and from what I gleaned when browsing the net, that's ok.

For some reason. Possibly only for a certain amount of time, until some definition of "residency" kicks in. Obviously hard to know for customs when you are entering e.g. visa-exempt but are going to prolong your stay for years on some sort of follow-up visa.

I think I'll go browsing that other thread mentioned here and ask a friend of mine about it, he's doing SAP customization with a view to customs, sadly he's not really legal.

!!! Someone post me that link here, please !!!

So if you are wearing an expensive watch, for example, bought six months ago, still in pristine condition, are the experts at customs able to tell how old it is?

No.

But in a pinch they'd just make you pay import duties and import sales tax and you can challenge that by later turning up with your invoice, and, in the case of a really expensive watch, the maker's certificate, the onus of proof being on you. Has happened.

Read my posts' signature below.

If I have offended the non native English speaking English teachers here in Thailand, I am sorry. I'm sure some of you have a pretty good grasp on English, and are probably great teachers. But I know there are hundreds, if not thousands here in Thailand who are not.

In my opinion, you should not need a degree to teach English at a school in Thailand, as in high school and under... If you are a native English teacher, and you have earned a TEFL or some other English language teaching certificate.

I never took offense, I see you're point, I am just not agreeing with everything there, with some points we're singing from the same page.

When I went to my normal public school in Germany back till 1991 having a native speaker for English classes was next to unheard of, certainly in my small town. Most guys I went to school with obviously only acquired English skills to the degree you would be used to (and we're talking A-level classes here, 13 years of schooling), as in: can get by in a conversation, accent makes your toe nails curl upwards.

That will obviously not do for teaching earnestly. But in my A-level class, for example, we were 13 students, and you'd have been amazed with anyone's English there.

When you get s.o. from eastern Europe, you might also be in for a surprise, as was mentioned earlier in some lengthy post. Got myself a Ukrainian girl-friend studying economics once, her German was impeccable; sometimes a little funny with a Bavarian accent ;-))

I give you that you'd normally be right with the limitations of a foreigner's English. Got some friends who are physicians and engineers, and their English is really good, just a bit clumsy and sometimes ... awkward, doesn't sound right, prepositions all in the wrong places. But would do for teaching s.o. English for 3 years or so to build on under some more qualified teacher, if they could get their pedagogics right. It's not like you get a class full of little geniusses who learn everything perfect and soak in every little mistake when they can't even count to begin with.

About the degrees... you'd probably have to experience for yourself what getting a degree means and what it does to you. I'm not talking some Mickey-Mouse-degree in social pedagogy or applied arts here, but something desperately earnest in core Europe or the US, where even former top-notch A-level students just fail after years. I can understand if you're put off by the prospect of s.o. being preferred over you by virtue of said minimum effort degrees.

If you are able to get the real sort of a university degree, you will have "learned to learn" for yourself with only basic explanations in courses, and that broadens the mind as to why some other people fail to understand explanations and how to put really difficult things together in a structured way on a piece of paper.

I have sometimes asked myself with the hindsight I now have: why didn't I just fly through school and only got top marks in the first place. The answer is: because I did not have those skills back then and could not work with the mostly excellent textbooks the way I was meant to. Learning at schools, even in Europe, up to at least age 16 is more or less "learning by osmosis", and the experience of having gone through that sort of learning, which you would then base your own teaching on, is not the same as learning towards a degree and learning to think in structured, highly abstract ways, and then break that down again to apply it.

Again, if you're enraged at the "any degree will do" rules, I can understand that to some point. I think it's mostly meant to keep the sort of beery would-be-teachers away from the kids they so got used to for many years and give the officials in charge a nice feeling of security about whom they hired. Nice, shiny, official-looking bit of paper always goes a long way with civil servants.

I guess I missed the part saying where would only apply to Thai citizens. Can someone show me that section? The whole idea is insane, but wouldn't be the first time.... I have retirement visa, but do not have resident status. When I go back to USA, customs tell me I am no longer a US resident as I spend so much time here... does that make me automatic resident here?

"Residency" can be different from a tax point of view where you'll be a resident in the Kingdom when you stay in the country in excess of 180 days within a given year. Your mere absence form the US would not automatically make you a resident in Thailand as the above condition might not be met when you stay in a couple of different countries.

But I am failing to see what residency would have to do with custom duties and import sales tax which hinge on different considerations, unless it's about special reguations such as the one where a Thai or a family member of one can e.g. take one household appliance into the country for free after quitting residence in Thailand for at least a year.

Looked things up. What you'll need is "certificate of identity" from your (hitherto) country of residence from where you are importing used goods for your personal use. The paperwork you'll have to submit there will take care of proving those items to be "used". Also carry copies of invoices.

Happens all the time with expensive fotography equipment. Also note there are also no import duties on computers and parts thereof, I put that question through TV's "Ask the Lawyer" some 3 months ago and was told I had to declare, ut there wouldn't be duties levied.

Amazing!! Took 35 posts before a voice of reason steps in and points out what is a simple truth...almost every country in the world applies duties to goods casually imported by returning residents. Anybody filled out a US Customs declaration lately?

If all you boneheads screeching about it killing tourism would just stop and think for a minute: how many tourists actually bring goods into Thailand? Very few, I'd guess....well, except for the ones bringing expensive devices for friends and family living here.

Years ago, when I used to travel from the USA with a lot of expensive, foreign made photo equipment, I would register it at the customs office before departure so I would have proof when I returned that it was not newly purchased.

Does anybody know if somebody can do the same here? Like if a departing passenger has a new Rolex, can he register it before leaving so he does not get taxed on it when he returns?

In more than 100 arrivals at BKK in the last 8 years, I've never been stopped and inspected exiting through the green zone. In some countries, when you enter green zone, there is a button you have to push that will randomly turn on either a green or a red light. If you are unlucky and get red, all your bags will be inspected.

Makes not declaring stuff a true crap shoot.

Best post on the whole topic, cheers.

That was just what I had been missing, I'll take my desktop PC with me when going to Thailand for at least the next 14 months.

Had thought about taking copies of the 3-y-o invoices for the individual parts with me, will now top this up with a "Nämlichkeitserklärung" for re-import at customs in Düsseldorf.

Here's the link to ther German form with explanations, sorry for everyone else. http://www.zoll.de/DE/Fachthemen/Zoelle/Zollbefreiungen/Aussertarifliche-Zollbefreiung/Rueckwaren/Abfertigungverfahren-bei-Wiedereinfuhr/abfertigungverfahren-bei-wiedereinfuhr_node.html

Maybe we could start a project here to collect those webpages for every race and creed?

Thanks so far, was immensely helpful.

Another non native speaker missed my point. I am not bashing Germans, or any other nationality. My point is.... Because of the rules in Thailand.... They will hire a NON NATIVE SPEAKER who has a degree.... Regardless of their level of English OR their accent, over a NATIVE ENGLISH SPEAKER without a degree.... Not taking anything else into consideration.

How can you not catch my point? I am not bashing your country. I am not bashing you. I am making a point about the rules for hiring a teacher in Thailand.

No, I am perfectly getting your point.

Your post is obviously not to do with Germans or Arabs as such, but about non-native speakers teaching English on grounds of having some degree.

And all I'm saying is that being a "NES" does not necessarily make you that much more qualified or qualified at all in the first place, because you don't know how your own language's grammar works and you'll have difficulties determining what words to use in trying to explain things in simple language when your non-native speaker will have at least 2-3 years of experience using hammer-and-nail English himself.

Obviously, IF someone were to reach a very advanced level of English, way beyond what Thai children in the present school system can ever hope to achieve as things are, it would be time for him or her to go to a country where English is spoken natively for the immersion. And talk to a good couple of native speakers to get used to a variety of accents and rapid speech with some colloquial expressions.

I could take care of the Northern Irish variety.

You're definitely catching my drift.

1) will be what I'll have to do for some 8 years IF I'm lucky, else 2) ... 1) is not that bad from my point of view, you'd actually be the envy of most "border-runners" worrying if they get even a double-entry tourist visa in Vientiane or somewhere and switching entry points every 3 months

3) wouldn't involve actually working IF you can manage being a business angle to some (excuse language) "native" who manages to "perform" on some sort of deal that involves salary based on turn-over or whatever, possibly observing stipulations as to minimum income. By the posts in your profile you appear the entrepreneurel sort.

Well, it's all that springs to my mind, and I am legal and have gone through a bit of a learning curve on the subject.

If someone has enough resources to "enjoy the life and not have to work", they have enough to get a proper visa. If they don't get a visa appropriate for their situation, it's either because they choose not to follow the rules and make the required investment ($$$ or classroom time) into their new country of choice, or they really don't have the resources.

OK, give me your suggestion for someone who has enough money, is under 50, does not want to work in Thailand, does not want to get married, and has no Thai child. Looking forward to your answer. And please give me one that does not "abuse the system"

1) if the above resources stem from a state pension you might be able to get a Non-Immigrant "O" visa even if under 50 (not the Non-O "A", you'll have to quit the country every 90 days)

2) enough resources will definitely help you in getting a chain of ED-visa until you are 50. You might actually have to study, especially for Thai courses, but you got plenty of time on your hands anyway

3) invest some 1 million Baht and start a business with 51% of shares in the hand of Thai partners for a Non-B-Visa. Doesn't get you a working permit, two very different things, might take the right contracts to work with the right Thai employees, but would work. Would need a lot of research on how to go about this and additional costs for accountants and the like, and sure be risky.

4) feed the government 2 million Baht and 20 k Baht a year for "Thai Elite Status" for extendable 1-y-stays with no border-runs. Might be rather desperate, but if you've got the money....

5) If you got the funds, you can potentially use tourist visa. Break the chain of "back-to-back" visa by staying in Cambodia for a month or two, travel around, return to your home country periodically, where the chances of getting triple-entries are much higher than in the neighbourhood of Thailand. Costly though, accommodation, storing and hauling round stuff will be the most costly factors.

Visa history to me sounds like they want to know how often and for how long you have been to Thailand the past two years.

Exactly. It's in the application forms linked in either this thread or another. They want the complete history two years back on that form.

Well, try to look wealthy and the type of foreigner they can like, it's probably all down to discretion again.

Having just received my ED visa last week from the Thai consulate in Penang, it came to light that you need to make sure that your application contains the following:

1. Minimum of 200 hours study

2. Stating that you are studying a minimum of 4-5 days per week.

When I was there, it seemed that only one school out of the 5 schools applying for ED visas on this trip had the correct information. All the other schools, mine included was missing the 4-5 study days and hence we (17 of us) where denied our ED visas.

/snip/

Thank you for prevention! Its usefull information. Its mean that I must pay for 200hours, and chek in documents to have this information was shown there, before going for a visa?

Most schools will require you to pay the full fee in advance and should get all the paperwork out of the way for you, which should take some 3 weeks. So you might be on a rather tight schedule if you're on visa exempt when applying. You obviously would then have to leave the country and apply somewhere for that ED visa (with some countries of origin you can only do it in your home country), and regularly shell out aditional fees at immigration and embassies.

Visit some three of four schools in person and have a look round if they seem organized and up to the task. Compare the timetables with those of other schools (possibly Walen, which is a sponsor here) and try to figure out if s.th. looks fishy. It's a lot of money after all.

While any subject at an approved school will do that most commonly will be languages, maybe computer skills.

So you could study Thai for 3 years (possibly longer), but be prepared to actually show some language skills when re-applying for follow-up visa on this.

You could in theory then go for Russian, then German, then...

I've also seen a "ED-visa enabled" 1-year course for TEFL if you are thinking about a teaching career, but it's round 60k Baht.

Most important thing will be to have your papers together, especially regarding income. Did me a world of good so far.

So, Thailand is famed for its German and Russian language schools ?

Yes, it is. Because all the chicks wanting to go to Germany with their farang hubbies need Goethe Institute's 1A German certificate. Unless they already are the mother of a minor unmarried child with German citizenship, i.e. of a German father (and I seem to recall the language regulation was considered unlawful by some court).

There are to my knowledge some courses in Russain offered.

Well, I have should ever have to go on ED visa I certainly wouldn't get away with studying German, but I so need to brush up on my English ;-))

For Germans it is passport validity for the length of stay. But in your case you need the 6 months to enter any nearby country when you leave to get another entry.

Visas are not transferred. You will have to use both passports to show your visa in the old one when you enter the country.

When you leave or go to immigration they will do an annotation with info about your visa and last entry into the country in your new passport.

Cheers ubonjoe.

Shows again this is a complex issue where other considerations come into play apart from Thai regulations.

While any subject at an approved school will do that most commonly will be languages, maybe computer skills.

So you could study Thai for 3 years (possibly longer), but be prepared to actually show some language skills when re-applying for follow-up visa on this.

You could in theory then go for Russian, then German, then...

I've also seen a "ED-visa enabled" 1-year course for TEFL if you are thinking about a teaching career, but it's round 60k Baht.

Most important thing will be to have your papers together, especially regarding income. Did me a world of good so far.

By the German Foreign Office's website holders of German passports need 6 months validity when entering, and that was exactly what the chap at Essen honorary consulate specifically told me when I got my multi non-o.

So for me with my passport valid through Sept. 20 that will mean I have to do a border-run and re-enter before March 20 and then either leave for Germany round June 20 or get a new passport locally.

Should I opt to get my new passport in Bangkok or Phnom Penh will I have to transfer my visa at immigration in Pattaya or can that be done at the border?

Will there be any fees involved?

Just give everyone a ball for himself, I've had it with people driving their cars through the night and honking like there's no tomorrow.