JB300

It's clear that the OP "Would like to return to Thailand with the option of staying 6 months to indefinitely and work from Thailand" (his words) for which, if he wishes to be 100% legal, he needs a work permit (Black & White, no shades of grey) so discussions about Business men answering the odd phone call/email would be irrelevant here.

Yes he probably would never get caught using Back-2-Back Tourist/Education Visas But I get the impression that the OP is someways of hitting 50 so how long would these last (ED 3 years max) and it only takes one Immigration official to #Suspect# (no proof required) that he's working in Thailand for it all to be over.

I've read that there is scope via a BOI/Umbrella company to get legal, this comes with a 20-25% "Tax" burden, but that's the price you need to pay if you want to be legal in these circumstances & should be able to offset it against Tax payable in your own country (assuming tax is being paid).

Anything is better than going back to the UK. Good luck mate but you will be ok.

Sent from my GT-I9305 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No offense but I'd rather be struggling for money in the UK where it seems to be defined as not having enough money for Ciggies & Sky TV than I would in Thailand where's it's a case of not having enough to eat.

I know I'm going to get shot down for this, but I'll say it anyway... If you can't afford to retire in the UK, you can't afford to retire in Thailand.

That doesn't mean your retirement monies won't take you further in Thailand or you won't be happier living there, but IMHO (& if I didn't think so I wouldn't still be working & saving) retiring in Thailand will not magically make any money short falls disappear, but if anything will (eventually) accentuate them all the more.

I'd continue to rent out the Aus houses & rent a nice property in Thailand

Another simple reason is, visa runs are a big industry in Thailand. They turn over millions of baht, everyday, and employ, either directly, or indirectly, thousands of Thai people.

If they were to change the visa laws and just have "tourists" keep attending their local Immigration Office for extensions, many Thai's would be out of work - obviously, most of the visa run companies would go broke.

By creating visa runs, the Thai Governmnet still gets your money (cost of the visa at a nearby Thai Embassy and/or 800 baht airport exit tax for those that fly for 30 days) plus they create a lot of employment.

Thailand's visa laws are outdated and need reviewing, but with all the money and employment visa runs generate, why would they change the laws?

Some things in Thailand are not about common sense, but simply about money.

Think you hit the nail on the head with the outdated visa laws that need reviewing but to suggest it's about the money that visa runs generate flies in the face of the current crack down on "Out-In" Visa runs?

Then again, TiT...

I'm somewhat perplexed that a poster who has been a member of this forum since 2009 and has more than 1200 posts under his belt would ask such a naïve, newbie type question!

He frequently posts vehemently about Thai politics, but knows nothing about COL and visa issues?

I note he hasn't been back to his thread to respond to any answers.

While an interesting discussion for many, I have to wonder about the OP's motives in starting it.

Im sorry I've somewhat perplexed you, simple answer is, I'm a live for the moment type, never been organised or a planner, never thought about retirement but now I've reached 65 I'm thinking about it. Had a longtime association with Thailand, first visited in '66, then not again till '88 but since many times including 2 times for 12 months, 3. times for 6 months, numerous 3 months and even a fair splattering of month or shorter trips. Got a future wife in Ao Nang and a really good deal on a small bungalow we've had since 2009. My choice is basically, keep working and only visit once a year for 3 weeks but live quite well in the UK, or go for it and see how the cookie crumbles.

Sent from my LG-P880 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Just like you, I was a member of Thaivisa for 5 years, and visited many times for longer and longer periods, before I moved here, so I shouldn't really be perplexed.

A few differences, I was studying for, and planning, my move from day one, so I knew everything possible about COL, visas, etc, I could without actually being there. And, I stay out of local politics!

It greatly depends on what you are leaving behind, but I would say go for it if the money works for you. Owning a residence makes a huge difference.

However, I don't think I would have been brave enough to do it on your level of income.

Good luck.

What is COL?

I do stay out of local politics, especially as all my local friends are yellow and I'm not. I have one friend of 20yrs I have spoken a bit to, but even he's the same, they all just look down on northern people and refuse to see them as equals.

Cost Of Living???

There are some real bitter gits on this board

How about you guys 'managing' your properties rented out in the UK from Thailand, via your agents in the uk? That's how you earn your money, how is that any different from managing sales on eBay where goods are being sold to and in the UK? Or any other such enterprise.

If the boarder control question the whereabouts of his income he can just say exactly that; it's from his property rentals in the UK. Then go about his business. They're only trying to throw a curve ball to catch out the occasional idiot.

I am on the other hand not discounting the fact the OP is a deluded dreamer who will not last 3 months in LOS. There are 100s like him and some do seem to survive. I just chose not to converse with such folk when I come across them from time to time, they do my head in.

Letting an agent manage the rental of your #Home# in the UK ("Passive Income") is nothing like #Actively# buying & selling goods on eBay & I'd bet that most of the guys on here who get income from property in the UK are doing just that.

I wish the OP the best of luck but do also think he's going to struggle & should make a decision as to whether to come for a long time or a good time, on those kind of numbers I fear it's one or the other.

It does seem some posters here are unable to correctly interpret the law regarding aliens and employment in Thailand.

Lets have a look at a hypothetical situation:

I own a garage business in the uk. For 3 months of the year I go to Thailand and leave my very capable workshop foreman in charge running the business. However every day I take an interest in the business, communicate via email and telephone with the foreman and give him instructions. I also sometimes make changes to the co. web site.

I am employed by MY OWN Uk company as managing director. That company pays me a salary. All of the company's business is conducted within the uk, but I give the orders no matter where my location.

Would you consider I am working in Thailand?

The alien employment prohibition laws are all about protecting the jobs that the Thais can do. They are NOT about preventing you having an interest in a business based outside Thailand. No one in Thailand is employing you or paying you and you are not running a business in Thailand.

Legally speaking, if you make changes to the website, deal with emails etc while in Thailand you are working, this is very clear under the law, so the only question which remains is.....will you get caught

In terms of the labour law, where how or even if you get paid are completely irrelevant

I know Thailand is different but the only rules around this I'm familiar with are for the UK where you're allowed to spend a maximum of 31 days "Working" (defined as spending 3+ hours per day) in the UK whilst still being considered as working full time overseas (providing you meet the criteria of the 1st 2 automatic overseas tests & spend no more than 91 days in the UK during that tax year)

It does seem some posters here are unable to correctly interpret the law regarding aliens and employment in Thailand.

Lets have a look at a hypothetical situation:

I own a garage business in the uk. For 3 months of the year I go to Thailand and leave my very capable workshop foreman in charge running the business. However every day I take an interest in the business, communicate via email and telephone with the foreman and give him instructions. I also sometimes make changes to the co. web site.

I am employed by MY OWN Uk company as managing director. That company pays me a salary. All of the company's business is conducted within the uk, but I give the orders no matter where my location.

Would you consider I am working in Thailand?

The alien employment prohibition laws are all about protecting the jobs that the Thais can do. They are NOT about preventing you having an interest in a business based outside Thailand. No one in Thailand is employing you or paying you and you are not running a business in Thailand.

Agree, but would it make a difference if you were in Thailand 6,9,12 months of the year?

Here's another scenario, you're a freelance programmer who gets his work over the Internet, you base yourself in Thailand for 12 months of the year you're not taking a job of a Thai & only do work for non-Thai companies.

Are you running a Business in Thailand?

Should you have a work permit/pay tax in Thailand?

I read that as saying if you've lived in the UK for a period of 10 years at any point in time, you're entitled to some cover once you hit state pension age, but isn't very clear at all & could be interpreted as having lived in the UK:

1) For 10 years at any time

2) For 10 years prior to reaching State Pension age

3) For 10 years after reaching State Pension age

I do think basing it on having paid x years (suggestion is 7) NI contributions is much fairer & think they should do something similar with Pension Increases (good thread on this already under UK Pensions).

Point 2 is your interpretation of "resident". I am a UK tax resident, domicile does not come into it. I receive a repeat prescription from my GP every 6 months.

Hi Sandy

It's not my interpretation, I was quoting verbatim from the NHS link I gave. All I am suggesting is make some investigation, just in case.

Regards

SDM

It seems that you lose eligibility for treatment on the NHS if you live abroad for more than 3 months of the year...

"Britions who live overseas for more than three months of the year currently lose their right to free health care at home, unless they have a medical emergency during a visit".

... And the qualification seems to be whether you're ordinarily resident...

"The current qualifying test for free treatment is whether a person is ordinarily resident. This is deemed to be unfair, as it is satisfied almost immediately by many new and temporary migrants, who may have contributed nothing."

... But there are changes planned (may have already happened) to change this to be based on (at least 7 years) NI contributions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/expathealth/10303008/Brits-abroad-could-have-rights-to-free-NHS-treatment-restored.html... Link to UK gov consultation paper https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/migrants-and-overseas-visitors-use-of-the-nhs

Edit: Just spotted the paragraph "Expats of state pension age who have lived in the UK for a continuous period of 10 years remain entitled to some cover even if they permanently live abroad", which may explain how some people are fully entitled to continue to receive their Meds etc...

Jump into the unknown with however much you happen to have at the time. Works for me.

Very apt nickname, for somebody who has that approach to life, I can just see you shouting "Geronimooooooooo" as you jump into the unknown [emoji4]

YES, you can manage to have a good decent life in Thailand with an income of THB 38000 pm.

The following road posts will help you to that aim :

1) have THB 350000 ( GBP 6500 ) ready to be deposited at a Thai Bank plus a verification of income letter from your embassy stating you get a monthly income of GBP 652 or, alternatively, have the sum of THB 800,000 deposited in a Thai bank for three consecutive months prior to your retirement visa expiration ( two months for the initial application ).

2) get a one-room apt in a Bangkok suburb near a major shopping mall and communications node for THB 3000-7000 ( you may need to refurbish it yourself with the such as window netting plus provide AC, fridge, wash machine etc which you can easily buy in Thailand or send from the UK by ship as used personal belongings)

3) buy annual health insurance in Thailand ( THB 40000-80000 )

Unlike other embassies (e.g. US) where they rubber stamp your declaration of income without validating it, you actually have to prove it to the British embassy before they'll issue you with a document confirming it.

OP is from the UK, so unless he can show an income of approx £1200 (65.000THB) per month then he would need to get the declaration for the income he is receiving & top it up with THB in an a bank account (e.g. I believe a pension of approximately £700 per month was mentioned, let's call this 460,000THB, he'd need to have another 340,000THB in an account to make it up to the 800,000THB required.

Perhaps they also thought 2MB would last 20 years?

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Or maybe they thought that nobody would ever need more than 64KB...

Sorry, crappy IT Joke (if you have to explain it, it's not funny) based on something Bill Gates once said about memory in PCs, but there does seem to be a parallel here.

No, but you get 6 lashes of the rattan cane if you go overdrawn (reduced to 3 if you're wearing clean underwear that day & have never owned a Singha vest)

Enforcement by air should not take place untill August 12, so you should be OK.

With proof that you work in Hong Kong you would probably be alright anyway, as their main concern is that people work illegally.

Surely if you've got proof that you're working but have been in Thailand for 3 months then you're proving that you are working from (in) Thailand which is illegal without a work permit.

Don't know what the solution is, but it seems to be a problem faced by many people who do Online/Tele work from Thailand.

@jb300 - I understand what you are saying. But I'm on a retainer and actually do no work in thailand. Only when I'm in Hong Kong do I attend to work matters.

But if someone was visiting Thailand as a tourist and answered an email from work whilst in thailand (for a job they hold in another country) would that constitute working in thailand? Or someone from singapore coming to play golf and you visit one of your regional offices in Bangkok for a meet and greet. Is that by definition working in thailand?

I have lots of friends in Thailand they own and operate a business in Hong Kong, singapore they conduct their business whilst in thailand, but everything relates to Hong Kong.

I thought the governments mandate is stop people coming to thailand to work and generate income in thailand, taking away jobs from Thais or setting up business in thailand illegally, not to stop people performing their job in a country outside of thailand whilst in thailand.


Adam

Adam, I do know exactly what you mean & doing something similar in the UK for the next couple of weeks in that I'm visiting family but will be answering emails / dialing into conference calls etc... Which the UK considers to be not working there (though there are some new rules about being no more than 31 days doing it > 3 hours a day), am not aware of anything similar in Thailand.

What I was trying to highlight was that it might not be a good thing to prove you're working outside of Thailand whilst staying for long periods in the country or immigration might assume (seems they only need to suspect) that you are working for your HK Client whilst in Thailand.


Cheers


JB

JB,

Point taken, I see what you mean, and make note of that when entering again.
But I believe I should be fine, with combination of being able to support myself and that I am looking after family etc, I hope no problems , fingers crossed.

Adam.


Adam

I also think you'll be fine & am sure can show immigration many pictures of you & your family to show why you're in Thailand.

If it was me & I was questioned about why I'd spent so long in Thailand, I'd just say business in HK was slow & I'd had an extended holiday/sabbatical but things were picking up again so I'd be spending more time working in HK, but would still be returning when ever I could to spend time with my family, then maybe get the Tourist/Marriage/Dependents/Retirement visa on my next trip out.

But I honestly don't believe they'll question you as it's obvious you have every right to have extended stays in-country or you wouldn't be able to get the dependents extension.

Surely if you've got proof that you're working but have been in Thailand for 3 months then you're proving that you are working from (in) Thailand which is illegal without a work permit.

Don't know what the solution is, but it seems to be a problem faced by many people who do Online/Tele work from Thailand.

Are you saying that documents showing that a person is resident in Hong Kong, is employed by a company in Hong Kong and has a work permit issued by a Hong Kong authority valid for working in Hong Kong is evidence that this person is working in Thailand?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

No I'm suggesting that documents which show a person is employed by a company in Hong Kong but has spent 3 months in Thailand without being in HK for work #Could# lead immigration to assume (they only need to suspect remember) that they're doing work for the HK company from Thailand (which counts as working in Thailand).

Follow on posts covered this...

Enforcement by air should not take place untill August 12, so you should be OK.

With proof that you work in Hong Kong you would probably be alright anyway, as their main concern is that people work illegally.

Surely if you've got proof that you're working but have been in Thailand for 3 months then you're proving that you are working from (in) Thailand which is illegal without a work permit.

Don't know what the solution is, but it seems to be a problem faced by many people who do Online/Tele work from Thailand.

@jb300 - I understand what you are saying. But I'm on a retainer and actually do no work in thailand. Only when I'm in Hong Kong do I attend to work matters.

But if someone was visiting Thailand as a tourist and answered an email from work whilst in thailand (for a job they hold in another country) would that constitute working in thailand? Or someone from singapore coming to play golf and you visit one of your regional offices in Bangkok for a meet and greet. Is that by definition working in thailand?

I have lots of friends in Thailand they own and operate a business in Hong Kong, singapore they conduct their business whilst in thailand, but everything relates to Hong Kong.

I thought the governments mandate is stop people coming to thailand to work and generate income in thailand, taking away jobs from Thais or setting up business in thailand illegally, not to stop people performing their job in a country outside of thailand whilst in thailand.

Adam

Adam, I do know exactly what you mean & doing something similar in the UK for the next couple of weeks in that I'm visiting family but will be answering emails / dialing into conference calls etc... Which the UK considers to be not working there (though there are some new rules about being no more than 31 days doing it > 3 hours a day), am not aware of anything similar in Thailand.

What I was trying to highlight was that it might not be a good thing to prove you're working outside of Thailand whilst staying for long periods in the country or immigration might assume (seems they only need to suspect) that you are working for your HK Client whilst in Thailand.

Cheers

JB

Enforcement by air should not take place untill August 12, so you should be OK.

With proof that you work in Hong Kong you would probably be alright anyway, as their main concern is that people work illegally.

Surely if you've got proof that you're working but have been in Thailand for 3 months then you're proving that you are working from (in) Thailand which is illegal without a work permit.

Don't know what the solution is, but it seems to be a problem faced by many people who do Online/Tele work from Thailand.

Not one country of heard of, allows you to renew a tourist visa, while your still in the country !! So why should Thailand differ

You can (apply, no guarantee it will be successful) extend your Visa in Singapore once without leaving the country, but then you have to leave for a minimum of 5 days.

And extend Visas no problem in Philippines & Cambodia, come to think of it, Indonesia (once) as well

But it is the exception rather than the norm.

[Edit]: Seems the OECD Information Exchange standards will be implemented in 2017 (in respect of data collected from 31st December 2015), accelerated by the implementation of FACTA (my IPhone also changes fatca to FACTA) FATCA... http://www.out-law.com/en/articles/2014/may/singapore-and-switzerland-sign-up-to-automatic-exchange-of-tax-information/


Apologies again for dragging things off topic, I do find this kind of stuff very interesting so tend to wander off on one!

Last I'll say on the subject except thanks to Naam for correcting some of my misunderstandings/assumptions and encouraging me to look into it further...


Cheers



JB

the ratification of the UK / Singapore DTA dates back to 1997 and came into effect as of jan1, 1999 but does not contain info exchange. no DTA includes that provision
 
estimated exchange of information based on OECD guidelines and agreements most probably not before 2018/2019
 
unfortunately our American friends suffer already.

I just know that something changed a couple of years back as my accountant sent me the link to the 2012 amendment above when it was happening but I decided against paying £200 to having it explained to me (had intended on reading it myself but forgot) as I figured he does my returns so is the one that needs to understand it :)

He was also the one who told me about Singapore being on a Grey List for Tax Evasion (quick Google & it seems they came off this in 2009... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/05/05/uk-singapore-banks-crime-idUKBRE9440DC20130505... With more changes imminent)... And that they had a "channel" for exchanging information with the UK (again a quick Google seems to say there is an "On Request" mechanism in place but no (as yet) Tax Information Exchange Agreement (TIEA, this is a new one on me) http://www.isla-offshore.com/going-offshore/tax-havens-information-exchange/)

I think the takeaway point is it's all becoming more & more transparent with fewer places to hide (well, ones that us mere mortals can afford anyway).

Apologies for dragging this off-topic & for the crappy formatting (Tapatalk doesn't seem to play nicely with IPhones).

 
With reference to what you have cited, in my case of this doesn't affect me, I have zero "presence" in the UK, no property, no bank accounts etc, in fact the only thing I get/take from the UK is a new passport every few years...I want nothing from them, so they are getting nothing from me...simple..
In the last nearly 30 years, I have spent only about 18 months in the UK total anyway.

I noticed there was a new question on the 2013/14 Tax Return which asked "Number of Ties" with the UK, my accountant had left it blank so I Googled around and the only thing I could find was a Residency Calculator that simply asked if I was a (Tax) resident for 2012/13 then 2011/12, then 2010/11 as I answered No to them all it just said I was non-resident so I took that to mean I didn't need to complete this.

Section 1.6 and/or 1.7 (page 10) of this would seem to cover you (and me) http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/international/rdr3.pdf

Section 2 (page 30) would seem to suggest that I also have no ties with the UK despite still owning my house there as this is not available to me (rented out) for 91 days

[quote name="Naam" post="7916059" timestamp="1401659815"][quote name="JB300" post="7915089" timestamp="1401626498"] [quote name="Naam" post="7915052" timestamp="1401625754"] [quote name="JB300" post="7914878" timestamp="1401622193"] [quote name="Soutpeel" post="7914691" timestamp="1401619207"]surely you understand the concept that FACTA/Patriot banking act primarily only affects US citizens & green card holders...I am not a US citizen or green card holder...it doesn't affect me in the least.
 
Citibank IPB will not let a US Citizen trying to open an account in Sing these days, unless your working in Sing and paying taxes there etc.
I have a UK passport, and I am declared non-resident for tax, The UK tax man can go an whistle Dixie..in my case further I pay my tax in Thailand as well, as I work here
 
Further Singapore does not "report" anything to the UK/US, however if the UK/US asks for information and I believe needs to gain a court order in Singapore the info can be released[/quote]Yep, fully understand the reach of FACTA, that comment was in response to the poster who said they'd opened an account in SG to get away from the USA patriot laws (so I'm assuming they're American & FACTA will impact them).

I'm also British & Non-UK resident for tax purposes but pay my taxes in Singapore (I work for one of the Global banks here) & the UK as appropriate (I.e. On income arising in the UK), hopefully that will change to living in Thailand & just paying tax in the UK by the end of the year (I've no intentions of working in Thailand, but will do some short consulting pieces in the UK & Africa).

Oh & Singapore does provide the US & UK with data about their citizens who bank here, it's not Switzerland of the 90s (even Switzerland has to nowadays).
 [/quote]you are a banker in a "global" bank and do not differntiate between FATCA and FACTA plus claiming that Singapore banks are providing data on UK citizens banking in Singapore?
 
gimme a break man!  
 [/quote]Who said I was a banker??? But as an IT Consultant I should be able to type better

As i said, Singapore used to be considered a "Grey" country for reporting to international standards, but this is no longer the case hence there's a DTA between Singapore & the UK.
 [/quote]
your are excused but please take note that a DTA does not mean information exchange.[/quote]

Thanks man ;)...

My #assumption# that Singapore & UK exchange information relevant to tax affairs is based on this http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/news/ann-sing-second-dta.htm (fairly recent, coming into effect 2012).


Have to confess I've not read it all, but looking at the underlying act of parliament it's based on (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/8/contents from 2010) chapter 1, point 6 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/8/section/6) sections 2 & 3 would suggest that if income/gains information isn't being exchanged, there is provision for it to be obtained on request...

(2) Double taxation arrangements have effect in relation to income tax and corporation tax so far as the arrangements provide—
(a)for relief from income tax or corporation tax,
(b)for taxing income of non-UK resident persons that arises from sources in the United Kingdom,
(c)for taxing chargeable gains accruing to non-UK resident persons on the disposal of assets in the United Kingdom,
(d)for determining the income or chargeable gains to be attributed to non-UK resident persons,
(e)for determining the income or chargeable gains to be attributed to agencies, branches or establishments in the United Kingdom of non-UK resident persons,
(f)for determining the income or chargeable gains to be attributed to UK resident persons who have special relationships with non-UK resident persons, or
(g)for conferring on non-UK resident persons the right to a tax credit under section 397(1) of ITTOIA 2005 in respect of qualifying distributions made to them by UK resident companies.

(3) Double taxation arrangements have effect in relation to capital gains tax so far as the arrangements provide—
(a)for relief from capital gains tax,
(b)for taxing capital gains accruing to non-UK resident persons on the disposal of assets in the United Kingdom,
(c)for determining the capital gains to be attributed to non-UK resident persons,
(d)for determining the capital gains to be attributed to agencies, branches or establishments in the United Kingdom of non-UK resident persons, or
(e)for determining the capital gains to be attributed to UK resident persons who have special relationships with non-UK resident persons.


As I said, these are fairly recent changes which have seen Singapore become more "Transparent" with the UK when it comes to tax & IMHO we're going to see much more of this.

Obviously the US guys are getting it 1st with FACTA (I swear, I type fatca & my IPad changes it it FACTA)... FATCA... And I don't think the UK will go quite as far (doesn't have the clout to force banks in countries like Thailand to comply) but the data sharing between governments will only increase.

https://www.ipb.citibank.com.sg/english/forms/english/open-an-IPB-account/form.htm

Thanks...

Thanks, can I ask what URL you access the site via?