WISteve

For a place called the "Land of Smiles", there sure are a lot of unhappy people.

Today's protests... as of noon...

protesters at Don Mueang... protesters at the SET building... protesters at Government House...

And lets not forget the garlic farmers up in Mae Hong Son demanding higher prices.

And didn't they close the roads into Nan the other day over the high price of gas?

Just form-up a mob and insist you won't disburse until they throw money at you.

It is getting a little disturbing around these parts.

~WISteve

I'm right out in plain view if it really matters.

~WISteve

Just something I noticed on the BTS in passing.

I'll have to leave it to the scholars in Bangkok to follow up on that if they would?

~WISteve

Should be a few years before the news finally reaches Udonm so we should be ok for a while

You know I just had to do a bit of research on that subject myself recently up in Udon.

I think they wear them a bit longer up there to be honest with you.

But it may require a bit more research I'm thinking?

If anyone knows any of the individuals in the photos, if you PM me the proof, I will delete their photo.

You can be such a prude sometimes John!

Okay just for you, likewise.

~WISteve

yes a bad situation but good comes from all bad

good thing is with all ther trouble means mining companies and arabs acnnot rape the island

and tourist development stays away

can you imagine what would happen if this island found peace?

it would be raped in no time flat

muslim extremist are evil but i n some ways good for the enviroenment

OMG now we have the "Green" terrorists making excuses for murdering Christian residents as well!

Torched any sub-divisions to save the snail darter lately?

It takes an incredibly convoluted logic to see that a slow, simmering civil war that brings continued pain and suffering to the citizens of Mindanao is a better option than having some tourist sullying the beaches? If you are concerned about responsible resource development than address it directly and forcefully. But wishing war upon a people who have seen so much of it already is cruel the to nth degree IMO.

Please explain this to the surviving family of the next soldier, plantation worker or school teacher who is killed in the southern provinces of Thailand, will you? I'm sure they will thank you for your environmental awareness!!

~WISteve

"Thailand Escapes Financial Meltdown"

That's probably a fair statement. But they certainly won't be immune to the global recession. They weren't exposed to the mortgage backed security problem to a great extent, but declining orders for equipment, electronics and apparel throughout the world will have a big effect on the economy. Tourism for a whole raft of different reasons will decline again in 2008 and 2009, and the biggest reasons are beyond their control.

With half the jobs in Thailand still tied to agriculture and static growth in export-focused manufacturing the Thai consumer won't be riding to the rescue. As is the usual pattern, the lowest paid and most vulnerable workers will bear the brunt of it.

Whether you credit it to good banking practices or dumb luck the financial sector should weather this storm better than most countries. But that's not to say there won't be some suffering and belt tightening done by the citizens of Thailand.

~WISteve

More than once to my embarassment I have pulled away from a service station in Thailand and forgotten to put up the kick stand. It always seems within a block or two that one of those guys who we seem to scorn, a motocy, will spot it and point it out to me as he's coming along side.

About six years ago I was getting funds from an ATM and just as the receipt was dispensed a baht bus pulled up and stopped. I stuffed the money in a front pocket and jumped on the bus, oblivious to anything around me. A few blocks down the road a thai guy sitting opposite me started pointing at me and eventually I realized that several of the 1k baht bills were half way out of my pocket and could well have blown away within a short time. I thanked him and offered him some money and he waved it off and just laughed with me at my carelessness.

Plenty of good ones out there.

~WISteve

I had a similar group of three try it in September on a 2nd Road baht bus.

Two older ladies across and the young one sat far too close in a nearly full bus. Leaned into me as the baht bus came to a halt and felt her hand in my back pocket. There was a folded up package in the back pocket and by the time I got my hand down there it was partly pulled out. I just said "kamoy!" loudly and moved away from her. She bitched at me in thai and the three got off at the next stop.

~WISteve

So the Bangkok elite get their casinos back and the hundreds of working people associated have their jobs.

If this dispute was left to the locals it could probably be settled in a day.

Amazing how there are 400+ hits on a topic when the shooting starts and four posts when it's over?

~WISteve

Banana Republic, here we come...

I don't think it will be a long journey.

Article 291 deals with amendment of the constitution.

The procedures to follow.

"Section 291. An amendment of the Constitution may be made only under the rules and procedure as follows:

(1) a motion for amendment must be proposed either by the Council of Ministers or members of the House of Representatives of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members of the House of Representatives or members of both Houses of not less than one-fifth of the total number of the existing members thereof or persons having the right to votes of not less than fifty thousand in number under the law on the public submission of a bill;

A motion for amendment which has the effect of changing the democratic regime of government with the King as Head of State or changing the form of State shall be prohibited;

(2) a motion for amendment must be proposed in the form of a draft Constitution Amendment and the National Assembly shall consider it in three readings;

(3) the voting in the first reading for acceptance in principle shall be by roll call and open voting, and the amendment must be approved by votes of not less than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(4) in the consideration section by section in the second reading, consultation with the people who submit a draft Constitution Amendment shall be held;

The voting in the second reading for consideration section by section shall be decided by a simple majority of votes;

(5) at the conclusion of the second reading, there shall be an interval of fifteen days after which the National Assembly shall proceed with its third reading;

(6) the voting in the third and final reading shall be by roll call and open voting, and its promulgation as the Constitution must be approved by votes of more than one-half of the total number of the existing members of both Houses;

(7) after the resolution has been passed in accordance with the above rules and procedure, the draft Constitution Amendment shall be presented to the King, and the provisions of section 150 and section 151 shall apply mutatis mutandis.

Thai Constitution

As long as the changes aren't retroactive they won't shelter any of Mr T's misdeeds.

That's the important part IMO.

~WISteve

I havent been in an internet shop for a couple of years now, however last time I used one the rates were 30 baht an hour. I recommend the 'Enjoy' internet cafe's on Soi Bua Khao.

Yes, they have reasonably nice shops on the rare occasion when I don't have my laptop along.

I've used that one as well.

30 baht per hour seems the prevailing price for most of them along Soi Bhuakow and environs.

If the cost of internet is an issue better you stay at home, we have enough cheap charlies here already.

If the poster isn't familiar with Pattaya it's a very fair question to ask what the prevailing price is and what spots are good.

You're not being a very friendly or helpful person by simply dismissing him as living on his last baht IMO.

You don't know him or his circumstances so you really shouldn't judge.

~WISteve

Regardless what you may think about the present government, PM or political situation, in a genuine democracy its unthinkable that an army general ventilate his political opinion in public. And even worse, urge the PM to resign.

I can only conclude that Thailand has no clue about what democracy really means. Take for instance the fact that PAD says that 75 of the MP's must be appointed, and not elected. PPP is an incestuous gang of self appointed people who only strive their own politica ambitions and benefits.

Non of them has an eye for the real needs of the country.

STUPID,STUPID, STUPID.

Well said.

Thailand is a democracy in it's infancy.

We should all encourage them in all ways possible to abide by the law of the land and deal with decention the way a true representative government would do it.

We should not be surprised when it doesn't happen that way.

~WISteve

Some of these posters are denying the reality of the situation.

Sondhi and his illegal band of thugs were armed to the teeth long before AAD showed up:

LOL... thanks for that one, I had never before seen an oar being described as "armed to the teeth"... usually those description refer to firearms or at least something more like this...

I'm sure you would be equally amused if the PAD thugs smacked you on the head with it SJ?

Big knives make good photos but the story line someone was trying to give us is that the band of thugs who took over Government House were unarmed, peaceful protesters.

There are hundreds of media pictures out there that show they were anything but unarmed or peaceful.

There are firsthand reports from Bloomberg and other reporters the night of the confrontation of bullets flying by them coming from the Government House toward the AAD mob.

PAD is for the most part armed and paid by the royalist/military/Bangkok elite who wish to overthrow an elected government and install their own henchmen to continue looting the government. Anything else is just fluff to disguise their motives.

~WISteve

May I suggest you look at this post of mine AND ESPECIALLY the two pics included.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?s=...t&p=2193747

I'm sorry but the distance the mob traveled means nothing to me.

Neither group of armed thugs should be tolerated. They should be disbursed or if they refuse arrested.

If Samak must go, so be it. Let it be though the laws at hand and not by a violent mob.

No good will come to Thailand by installing a legislature appointed by the rich and influential.

~WISteve

It seems to me a lot of people here are missing the point about the current conflict. This is not a battle against Thaksin, Samak, the PPP or the TRT.

It is a battle where by a minority want to overturn a democratic system in favour of a grossly socially inequitable feudalistic form of government.

Thailand is a corrupt country relative to western democracies. It is a developing democracy moving from a feudal system through an absolute Monarchy to a democratic Monarchy. There will be winners and losers in such a change. However, the power-brokers of today wish to turn back the clock to a more archaic form of government which is generally not accepted in western countries which have already undergone this political evolutionary process in past centuries.

The sins of Samak or Thaksin are not an issue here. They can be dealt with by the courts. What really is at stake here is Thailands future as a developing democracy and its future in developing from a basically third world country into a modern economic world partner.

Its far too easy (and emotive I would add) to focus on the politically "hot" topics of the day and to not see the bigger picture.

I couldn't have said it better.

The obsessed tunnel vision some posters have against members of the present and former governments, or entire government at all, is almost sickening. The day-in-day-out posts they write have nothing to do anymore with the reality and future of Thailand.

These same people will ALWAYS find a new target to bash upon to filter their own narrow minded views.

It's the same as if some obsessed Thai people would write and object against (members of) governments in the countries they live in, abroad.

Having an opinion is nothing wrong with but to make it a personal battle is something one has to think about twice. Trying to be objective is not their strongest point; on the contrary, they can't even listen or try to accept views from others which differ from theirs.

The complete Thai system and society is so deeply rotten that the people behind the Thai velvet curtains are now even trying to to overthrow the democratically elected and formed coalition government because the PM showed up in a cooking show and the same afore mentioned posters go along with that...

The ENTIRE world will look and almost laugh themselves to death if the Thai government is overthrown because of a cooking PM..........

It's just sick; speaking about losing face for Thailand....

LaoPo

Brilliantly put, Ando and LaoPo.

All that's been said, plus a couple of other points:-

Their absolute refusal to accept facts, e.g. vote buying is sadly rife amonst ALL parties and has been for decades, most of them are just as guilty as PPP (which is why nearly every party is up before the EC), yet we hear only the endless bleat "they weren't elected, they bought it!"

PAD's leadership make is crystal clear that their principal aim is not just to get rid of Samak/PPP, but to redraw the whole democratic framework - the New Politics. Yet so many pro-PAD posters are in denial of that fact, as even they can't stomach the prospect of an appointed, unelected junta with the military playing a prominent role in keeping the status quo safe for evermore.

I agree.

Also some great posts with links overnight. Gave me a lot to read this morning.

I agree.

As imperfect as it may be, with vote-buying going on with money from both sides, democracy in action is preferable to anything else on the horizon.

Mr T is being prosecuted on several levels. If Samak is guilty of similar charges let the judiciary go forward with it.

I still think the "Cooking with Samak" charges are silly and contrary to the intent of the ban on outside work ...........

But don't take a step back to feudal times with an appointed junta.

America had it's time in the South with poll taxes and other illegal efforts to deprive poor blacks the right to vote. They were all wrong.

Democratic rule and obeying the laws of the land (which includes prosecution for illegal occupation of government buildings ) is what is needed.

I have no love for Mr Samak or his predecessor. I do want peace with justice for the people of Thailand.

~WISteve

It was a Straits Times journalist that reported on bullets coming from PAD side.

Thank you. I just found it on TV here: on the scene report

He was with a Bloomberg reporter that night.

Re-posted by Davee58 about 2/3 of the way down the page.

~WISteve

Some of these posters are denying the reality of the situation.

Sondhi and his illegal band of thugs were armed to the teeth long before AAD showed up:

LOL... thanks for that one, I had never before seen an oar being described as "armed to the teeth"... usually those description refer to firearms or at least something more like this...

There are firsthand reports from Bloomberg and other reporters the night of the confrontation of bullets flying by them coming from the Government House toward the AAD mob.

Could you please provide some of those?

There was a link to it in this or the other string the night of the confrontation. I was online and reading TV at the time and back in the States. I'm in LOS now and have better things to do, but if you follow the time line of the mob on mob confrontation ( I don't remember the date to be honest) I saw it on TV.

~WISteve

Some of these posters are denying the reality of the situation.

Sondhi and his illegal band of thugs were armed to the teeth long before AAD showed up:

LOL... thanks for that one, I had never before seen an oar being described as "armed to the teeth"... usually those description refer to firearms or at least something more like this...

I'm sure you would be equally amused if the PAD thugs smacked you on the head with it SJ?

Big knives make good photos but the story line someone was trying to give us is that the band of thugs who took over Government House were unarmed, peaceful protesters.

There are hundreds of media pictures out there that show they were anything but unarmed or peaceful.

There are firsthand reports from Bloomberg and other reporters the night of the confrontation of bullets flying by them coming from the Government House toward the AAD mob.

PAD is for the most part armed and paid by the royalist/military/Bangkok elite who wish to overthrow an elected government and install their own henchmen to continue looting the government. Anything else is just fluff to disguise their motives.

~WISteve

" 3. To ensure that new politics is introduced in the Kingdom of Thailand, the PAD announces the following stance:

3.1 The PAD sees its first goal as chasing out this proxy government that has sold the country. It is not necessary for negotiations with any group that sees otherwise.

We support changes to the current political situation on the condition that political reform must happen and the public must be allowed participation in politics. There must also be sincere efforts to solve the evil in the Thaksin regime through the judiciary system.

The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70 : 30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussions. It is not a fixed formula advocated by the PAD. We are ready for a discussion from all sides on designing new politics and will respect the majority decision for new politics that is ethical, moral, and more representative of the varied social sectors to go in line with the lifestyles and culture of Thailand but still upholding democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy."

Some of these posters are denying the reality of the situation.

Sondhi and his illegal band of thugs were armed to the teeth long before AAD showed up:

Sondhi and his royalist/military/Bangkok elite backers can't win an election fairly so they wish to appoint 70% of any government?

That's not representative government, it's a farce.

At one time I was sympathetic to PAD, only because of the corruption in the Taksin government. But the judicial system is working in Thailand. The former prime minister is being held accountable for his dishonest actions. Now is not the time to go backward to a puppet legislature that will be dominated by a 2/3 majority, able to amend the constitution at will without the input of democratically elected legislators.

I agree with LaoPo that Thailand will turn into a laughing stock in the world if they somehow believe this insult to democratic principles is allowed to go forward.

It's not in the citizens interest or the nation as a whole to set the clock back decades so that the minority in Bangkok can have a free hand once more to raid the public coffers with impunity.

An imperfect democracy that has to prosecute it's prime minister after the fact is far better than no democracy.

~WISteve

Hopping on the back of a moto driven by a chrome pole maiden I had fallen in love with about 20 minutes prior as she zipped north on Second Road from Pattayaland Two to Soi Eight at 100 kph, thinking "Wow, this sure is fun!?!" No helmet and not a care in the world. Sadly, the romance ended about an hour and one-half later.

~WISteve

I was too young to stand for anything in 1992. So that is not applicable. I have stated time and again that I do not support PAD, but I do support peace. I believe we need to clear the way for peace and since the PAD are not going to accept anything - and bloodshed will continue - we have to at least dismantle PAD peacefully, and the government needs to step down and we need to find a way forward from there onwards. There is no use bleating about how wrong PAD is, in many ways they are very very wrong, but the facts remain that they are going to continue. So what are the options? Confrontation? Well, sorry, I am Thai, I do not support bloodshed of my pepole...or option two - for the government to make a sacrifice. This government is hardly the victim, let's not forget that most people in Thailand who get to hear unbiased media, will agree that this government has a lot to answer for and is corrupt to the core. There is no right here. They are both wrong. But as I said, PAD will not step down, so the government has to.

I think turning off the electricity to their stage and TV station would be peaceful. Like you, I believe no more blood. Everyone go home. Its over.

Yes, I quite agree with you RCM.

I only want my thai friends to live for another day and continue on some shaky road to democracy.

They have a long way to go but it pains me to think of them going back to a dictatorial past.

Stop the fighting and killing.

~WISteve

Both sides (PAD and DAAD) need to stand down NOW, obey the rules of the state of emergency and solve their differences peacefully through the ballot box.

~WISteve

The government do not want another election. They have not yet recouped the hundreds of millions they forked out to Isaan villagers for their votes, and if a fresh election is called, with no money the people might just vote for some decent people for a change.

This would be a great opportunity for PAD to withdraw their support for a 30% democracy and insist on a true pure 100% democratic election. With the PPP out of money, they could not possibly win. Also, the EC is up and running strong. Hurry PAD, don't miss your chance for a clean election. If that is what you really want?

TRT/PPP will still bring in a strong minority, large enough to form another coalition government.

The royalists/Bangkok middle class with their political arm PAD have already announced their goal: take the one man one vote representative government away from the NE masses and allow them to appoint 70% of the legislative body.

Until they are ready to quit stoking violence in the streets they (PAD and their financiers) will never gain broad acceptance by the people.

They say right now that they only want Samat out. But when they lose again, they will be right back at it I'm afraid.

~WISteve

I am a peaceful bloke myself.

But if one or a group of people approached me with the clear intention of kicking the sh*t out of me, then I would grab the biggest, hardest stick that I could find.

Exactly krab.

Trouble is, all those non violent folks violently occupied a government office complex.

They built those barricades to keep the police out, first and foremost.

All these keyboard revolutionaries.

Perfectly happy it seems to see thai blood in the streets.

No good will come of this.

~WISteve

There is too much heat and lack of comprehension of the true situation here.

Firstly, Thailand is NOT a democracy. The votes have never been free or fair here, if they were there would be no vote buying or heavy "persuasion" to vote for a particular party. As an example, at the last election, my maids and their entire community were told that if they did not vote for PPP, their loans from the 1MBaht village fund would be called in. This is neither free nor fair and does not fulfill the requirements to be a democracy. No government "elected in such circumstances can be regarded as legal or legitimate.

I have several family members deeply involved at all levels in PAD. They are not paid, and those demonstrating have never received more than a bottle of water or a khanom from well-wishers. The PAD have always preached Ghandiism and non violence. Any who arrived at a demonstration with any type of weapon had it removed, or they were turned away. The PAD have legitimate grievances, not least the illegitimate government, and have the absolute right to make them known.

On Saturday/Sunday that just passed, a group of men were touring the villages in the North and, I'm told the North East, offering 500-1,000 Baht per day to men willing to go to Bangkok to form a counter demonstration and attack the PAD demonstrators. All transport etc. was provided. Is it mere coincidence that this happened just when Mr Taxin sold Man' City and became highly solvent again. The rumour is that more than coincidence is involved here.

Are these your non-violent PAD folks?

Neither side has clean hands in this situation.

Both sides (PAD and DAAD) need to stand down NOW, obey the rules of the state of emergency and solve their differences peacefully through the ballot box.

~WISteve

Not sure if this has been reported yet. Doesn't look too good.

EXCELLENT MOVE

I suppose one reason I am so passionate about my support to getting rid of the current government, and before that thee government of Thaskin is, I saw 1st hand what his policies did in Issan. You gave a lot of people easy credit, based on how much land they owned. They went out bought new trucks, maybe a Mia Noi, a few invested in equipment to farm, but little thought was given to how to pay the money back.

What happened when they did not pay the money back? They lost their land and the government sold it to its cronies....

We bought some of this land our selves, rather than having it go to the government, and then allowed the families to keep farming it.

While a lot of people praised the government for giving them money, for a lot the full realization has yet to set in on what it truly cost them.

It was almost universal in all the villages outside Si Sa Ket for a payment of 200 to 500 baht per vote....This is not democracy.

And anarchy in the streets is democracy?

Rule of law must prevail.

The military will ultimately do that, it is all a question of how much blood will be shed along the way.

It seems 9 of 10 of the posters on here want nothing less than to see thai citizens die in the streets?

Calling on more people to join in an illegal occupation of government buildings is sedition at the very least.

I fear what will happen to the innocent, naive citizens who will answer this call for more people at the barricades.

~WISteve

Boonsang: Soldiers stand on people’s side

(BangkokPost.com) – Supreme Commander Boonsang Niampradit said he believes the state of emergency imposed at 7am Tuesday in Bangkok can partly solve political problem.

Gen Boonsang said soldiers will stand shoulder to shoulder with the people and the society, adding that he hopes that ongoing turmoil will not be as violent as October 14, 1973 or October 6, 1976 bloodsheds.

Asked if he thinks the situation will get out of control, Gen Boonsang said it depends on the people, who will have to think carefully what is good or bad for the country.

He also said that the pre-dawn clashes between anti-government group and the pro-government group that led to the death of one protester should not have happened, adding that he believes this is not the government’s attempt to stir unrest in order to lead to the imposition of the state of emergency.

Bangkokpost

~WISteve