EnlightenedAtheist

8 minutes ago, The Fat Controller said:

Landing : The normal glide path angle is 3 degrees, which equates to roughly 300 feet per mile, so at 10 miles from touchdown the aircraft with be at 3000 feet. Once descending on the glide path (normally from 3000 feet or thereabouts) flaps and landing gear are selected which increase both lift and drag and therefore some power is required and more noise is generated, aircraft DO NOT make glide approaches once on final approach, the target speed on final is determined by aircraft weight and actual wind at the airfield.

Steeper approaches are only required due to terrain constraints, such as at London City Airport. 

 

Departures : In the UK, there are very strict track-keeping criteria to minimise noise along with minimum heights at certain points. At Heathrow for instance, there is a lot of noise monitoring and airlines can be fined for transgressions.

 

As for Thailand, it is in ICAO and will arrange arrival and departure routes according to International standards, HOWEVER, noise considerations and building regulations may be completely different.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for answering the questions.

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

How can these two basic questions be "off topic" they appear to me to be the basis of the OP!

When did asking questions become "ad hominin".  I am not attacking you or your argument because I do not know what the basis of your argument is as you refuse to define it or even more reasonably answer the two basic questions.

As to "ad hominin" re "rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument" YOU said;

Who is being/doing the "ad hominin" thing? 

It is not me.

 

Now will you answer my two questions which are most certainly germane to this issue which you started.

Germane does not mean t(r)opical. LOL

It looks like you were challenged at the start and continue to misunderstand or deliberately misconstrue the topic. I asked questions in the OP. Look for them. Answer them. If not, move on. How hard is it? (You can choose to ignore questions, but others must answer yours?) I will posit that you did not answer them because these were probably beyond your level of expertise and it was easier to morph the OP as some kind of an idiotic topic written by some idiot --also known as me:

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Or don't choose to live near an airport!  I suspect it was there before you.

Duh! I suspect too. (Airplanes routes and traffic change, btw, as circumstances and priorities, but maybe there are no paradigm shifts in your world.) Simply put, your opening move was not the kind that helps to cement an amicable connection. Considering you were the first one to reply, you set me up. You followed with a few more bombs, compounding the problem, when I put you to task. Anyway, read the OP again. It clearly states the issue and we are not talking about being close to the airport. Duh! Never was and never will be the topic.

Just now, scottiejohn said:

What is the point of the reply above?

I have repeatedly asked you to answer two questions.  Why don't you answer them?

 

PS; I think you are the one who is flying a Kite and as to references to a psychiatrist, all I can say is you raised the subject, so look no further than your own self needs.

 

I would still like an answer to my two questions;

Why can you not answer them?

 

Because there are off-topic.

Baseless and cheap ad hominen attacks do not warrant any answer.

3 minutes ago, HooHaa said:

Perhaps it isnt unusual.

 

Have you ever chosen to live directly under the flightpath anywhere else?

That is what I am trying to ascertain, but there are more off-topic posts in this thread that one could expect. But, maybe that is not unusual! LOL

I did not choose this and this is not a personal issue as I am moving in a few months. If one likes to be close to, say, the government buildings, there are not too many options unless you have 10 M. to spend. I have explained the reasons why this took place at length in one major post.

29 minutes ago, The Fat Controller said:

Let's all be thankful we live in the age of the high bypass ratio turbofan engines which are so quiet compared to their predecessors.

People want to fly, there will be noise, we just have to live with it !

Thanks, but, at the end, what matters is what people on the ground must bear and what my meter indicates. They might be quieter now, but they are a bother. Of course, planes are needed. Regardless, these were not the questions that were asked. Read the OP.

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

 

I am still waiting for the answers because you are just giving out verbose meaningless rubbish but not answering the basic questions. 

1.  What has caused your present problem now after so long in the area?

2.  What do you want from this forum or anyone else?

 

 

 Most words in the English language have multiple meanings so why the extra meaningless verbosity again! You are only veering away from what ever your message is meant to be.

And what was the point of the atheists comment.  You have no idea of my thoughts, beliefs or lack of them and they are not, I would have thought (pun intended), relevant to whatever these posts are about.

 

Please give a short accurate reply that will maybe (tho I doubt it will happen) help you with your anguish or whatever!

Ahahaha! Prepare to wait for a long time. AHAHAHA! 

You are positioning yourself as a psychiatrist treating a patient. Hey, SJ, here is my advice. Go fly a kite, but a plane is more efficient.

Short enough? AHAHAHA!

6 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I don’t know which child’s cartoon book you took your diagram (above) from but here are the links I used to make a comment (not a Thesis!).

　

http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html

https://www.hearingaidknow.com/how-loud-is-too-loud-decibel-levels-of-common-sounds-2

I am still waiting for you to state what has changed since you moved to your location to warrant your present verbosity and what your proposed solution to your so called problem is.

Sorry, I do not feel the tone of this conversation is working for me. I have stated my case and multiple times. 

Incidentally, "thesis" has multiple meanings: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/thesis

Bye.

25 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I will type this quietly but 60dB is equivalent to conversational & air conditioner noise level and 70dB equals the noise level of your shower or dishwasher.

So what is your problem.

 

What is more annoying that plane disturbing one's sleep is people not substantiating their thesis with evidence. I will forgive you. It is a sign of the time.

My facts don't match yours.What is YOUR problem? Don't like atheists? Love baby crying and dog barking? Are you deaf?

28 minutes ago, Sir Swagman said:

Your proclivity for somewhat turgid verbosity, convoluting an unequivocal aviation contention that thrust equates to disquietude is rather more indicative of a surfeit of temporal lassitude, as opposed to an inclination towards erudition via this medium. 

Me? Verbose? That was not my intention at all, if I was.

I think you are confusing length/depth of analysis and style, but who knows. What are you referring to, exactly, anyway?

Incidentally, I am perplexed that you would accuse me of being verbose when you are using the exact style that you find "annoying"! But, since it is obviously intentional, it is odd.

Btw, is that a crime, a new law, a new forum rule that you are warning me about? LOL

1 hour ago, hawker9000 said:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.  'Some grist for the mill I guess.  But you know, without knowing or wanting to know all the details, there's something to empathize with here.  A 65yo used to being with somebody and not looking forward to spending the rest of her years alone.  Kind o' sad.

There is a nice functional post for once!

At least she is not sitting at home praying for a divine intervention to fix her problems.

8 hours ago, maximillian said:

Modern airliners are far less noisy then in the 1970ies and 80ies.

Remember the old Caravelle ?  The Boing 727 and 737 ?  The DC-10 ? 

I would not know, but thanks for the info.

Is that all elements taken into account? I mean if an airplane must flight at a lower altitude or have their route angle off in a different manner, that absolute value becomes a very relative number.

My meter shows 60 to 70 DB levels when they pass over houses in some areas. It is less than 80, I guess! Is it acceptable, though? Can it be mitigated (not at a personal level, but at a collective level)?

7 hours ago, maximillian said:

Living in Thailand means one has to accept noises either from cars, bikes, temples, phuyai baan's loudspeakers, markets, dogs, frogs, planes, parties going on for a week night and day and so on.

I live near a military airport. Twice a day between 4 and 10 fighter jets, causing deafening noise are passing over our house. Just wonder how the schools are coping with this.

Teachers will have to stop talking for minutes until the planes are out of hearing distance.

Nobody seems to care.

Thanks for that! Amazing the school situation! 

It is brainwashed into them by all the institutions and the culture. The temples? The monks? The metanarrative is repeated ad nauseam. It is in the West too, but to a lesser degree, I think. Still, look at the reaction here from many foreigners. Few do care. Many are seeing the issue as an individual one. Few care. I guess it rubs off after a while. It is hard to fight that collective force. That emotional control is very useful. Think pollution. Think blatant abuse or exploitation. Think censorship ... in many places (wink, wink). Emotions and communication are repressed or restricted. Dictatorships or oligarchies make that happen, of course. And let's not kid ourselves. Western countries are not immuned to these kinds of controls over-reaching in areas that were once private. The threat of terrorism has used the purpose of many. It is going to take a miracle, but I don't believe in those. It needs to start somewhere. I was just trying to assert the depth of the issue. Thanks for the anecdotes.

19 minutes ago, chingmai331 said:

Gad, this OP loves to type.  I'd say he is lonely for intellectual banter but has none just now in life.  In many respects he needs to be 'preacher of consequence', admired and obeyed.

A preacher of consequence. Care to elaborate?

30 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

But I moved from San Sai where I lived for a number of years so both ends of the runway are in my knowledge base.

I see. It seems that  times have changed a bit since, as explained in detail on one of my posts. Sansai is a big area anyway.

33 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

I am not sure about here in thailand, and specifically Chiang Mai but where I lived in Brisbane, Australia they do this on purpose. Why? To share the noise around. If they took the exact same flight paths the same people would get all the noise so they do alter the flight paths slightly to share the noise. I am referring to low landing and taking off aircraft. I always wondered why we often went a different way on coming into landing in Brissy so I did some research and hence my comments here. There is a website you can go onto in Brisbane and see live sound levels at certain points on the flight paths. 

Very interesting! Thanks!

I guess that would be quite "fair".  And maybe they are doing the same here. My wife noticed that they avoid "hospitals", which is preferable (LOL). Of course, hospitals have ambulances that are noisy, although I notice that they are quieter here. Maybe they have other no-fly zones, grey-zones, and go crazy-zones. The no-fly zones would be high-ranking officials and people in the know.

In the oversea city I lived, there was a whole ocean for the planes to land and lift off from. No such luxury in CM, of course. The bowl like structure probably makes things worse. The only option is earplugs, white noise (fan, a/c), hearing loss, choosing an area (but it will be a compromise and difficult to achieve optimal or near optimal levels), and/or building using the best soundproofing methods (room within a room seems to work in most cases). In spite of all that glass, they can soundproof airports, albeit with background music playing and tons of people speaking. 

36 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

Like I mentioned, after awhile I did not really notice them even sleeping. I never used ear plugs but mostly kept the doors and windows shut with the AC on when sleeping. I had lived in  a couple houses in that mooban and in the first house my wife left the bedroom balcony door open at night for fresh air but the noise from the bars on top of Maya kept me awake more than the aircraft did. Go figure.

Thanks. Oh! Sorry! 

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After awhile I never really noticed the noise levels in Nimmarnhemin. Mostly only “noticed” when I was watching TV and intently listening at the time an aircraft passed over. 

I was perplexed that you would notice them more when you watching Tv than when you are asleep, trying to,.... 

I can only hope that my hearing goes for the worse, buy earplugs, or hope for a new airport to be built. Not likely given the number of politicians being on the wrong side of town, country, or penitentiary. Some of them have been shot, which does not help either.

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

You did put the word Help! in your original post.

You are a farang. You don't even have a vote in Thailand. How are you going to bring democratic change when it is none of your business.

Having wasted my time reading my way through your self-centred monologues, yes you may well be an atheist.

Enlightened is not the adjective i would use for you.

Okay! You are pissed off at the comeback I made of/to your post. I did not started.

Sure! The forces are always against change. Always. At home, it was other excuses. Here, I am a foreigner. Change, full-sweeping changes takes time, but it has to start somewhere. It starts with Thai wives or friends. It continues with them talking to others. It is called Malcom Gladwell's Tipping Point. If everyone slams me, it won't happen, of course. I do not have --according to him-- if I recall the required personality and lifestyle (hundreds of friends here or there). But, maybe someone here does. It cannot be done alone. Of course. 

That I use the word "Help"? I did, but there was no exclamation mark! You are making it sounds like I was asking for help. I wasn't. Context is everything. 

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To make matter worse, these airplane do not fly the exact routes going to the same place (which could help in choosing dwellings to live or rent). Is it because weather and wind conditions precludes them from doing so? 

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

Hold on the EA. Take a deep breath. I am am of the same persuasion (religiously) as your good self. 

 

As for Scottiejohn; he is a cradle of knowledge, wit and humour unlike many on TVForum (not you and me of course). Although he doesn't need me to speak for him one little bit.

 

Have a glass of single malt whiskey; and chill!!

 

And I have just noticed that the little pic' under your pseudonym is indeed Charles Darwin. Respect bro!!!

 

2D communication is very dangerous. I get no non-verbal and prosodic clues. One must be very careful to interpret, but I do not want to be the proverbial rug without me knowing the insider's jokes. It felt you were trying to bring me down, in a very subtle way. The last sentence did not jive with the rest and then made the other parts look like less friendly. Now, I do get what you were saying. You wanted interesting topics. You were not complaining about this being one.

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Carry on the good work EA. More interesting topics please.

My apologies.

2 hours ago, CNXBKKMAN said:

Three flights last night between midnight and 6am, all A320's and all departing to China. They will have been at 6000 to 10000 feet over Maejo same as always. Chiang Mai is only airport with night flights in the whole of northern Thailand above Don Muang. Hundreds of thousands of square kilometres and to find yourself 10km from that one airport is it just bad luck? 

    Why do some many people move to Chiang Mai with it's convenient airport and cheap flights (and associated noise) but dont want to live in places like Nan, Phrae, Fang, Nakhon Sawan, etc which have almost no aircraft noise? 

Thanks for the info.

In some ways, those are not so bad as everyone is asleep, but who knows ... maybe that might explain the odd times I wake up in the middle of the night, when I never used to. I intend to change the situation soon.

Some of us, as stated in my lengthy post, could not predict the turn of events, as stated. CM is not what it is used to, but can it be made to be better? If one does not ask questions, one does not get answers. Of course, the naysayers like to shoot down anyone who asks because they know all of the answers. They always do. When is the next Manu VS Chelsea match? Now, that is worth pondering about!

2 hours ago, portroyal said:

Air control staff k’now that they have to order to the plane

Do you suggest they have to modify angle descent for your convenience ? In what world do you think you live ?

"Order to the plane"?

Not for my convenience. As stated (how many times do I have to), there are potentially hundreds of thousands of people affected and they will not rock the boat (or the plane, rather). Right?

I was just trying to find out if they were doing this deliberately to save fuel. Time?

29 minutes ago, Dazinoz said:

After  OP I have watch my Flightradar24 app for a time. Without knowing where original poster lives exactly it’s hard to tell but most flights seem to be around the 5000 to 8000 feet. I used to live at the north end Nimmarhemin road right under the flight path and only about 2 km from the end of the runway. Quite noisy there but I lived there 3 years. At that points most aircraft are at 2500 feet and climbing over 3000 fpm. Around the San sai area the climb rate has dropped down to around 1500 fpm. I would suggest it’s probably the number of flights that has increased the noise level not the altitude or climb rate. 

 

After awhile I never really noticed the noise levels in Nimmarnhemin. Mostly only “noticed” when I was watching TV and intently listening at the time an aircraft passed over. 

Thanks. 

It seems where I am some of them feel so close, but then 120 DB does travel far, reflects and goes through a lot of material before it is mitigated.

How about sleeping? You used ear plugs or came back to sleep when they were not flying. How about the morning? 

3 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Enlightened Atheist (EA). I applaud you. You walk it as you talk it. I agree with everything you say. Not only that but Atheists are far more truthful.

 

I am a Dawinian or Darwinist; and proud of it.

 

Carry on the good work EA. More interesting topics please.

A Darwinist? :) 

And a bald eagle as well! :) 

Wow!

Superlatives fail me!

So, you have decided to answer questions on this very topic, but are now judging it to be not at your just and right level of enlightenment? :) 

Like what? Ah! Yes! Like a topic asking people to comment on football?

Impressive!

That's an interesting topic!

Trying to spare hundreds of thousands of people the annoyance of noise (which is a health hazard) or commenting on football! 

I am impressed by your self-endowed (high, of course) prowess! Go for gold! Go for the first post on the 1700th page!

GULP!

That would be a great accomplishment (but don't forget to belittle others' topics [one-liners will do] and answer the wrong questions on topics,... that --of course-- are trivial, but that you follow! Like Scottiejohn, your friend!

GULP!

You are so smart or so YOU think!

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

I'm somewhat puzzled by the OP's request for help. What kind of help does he want? If it's information about flight paths and flight levels into CM, the local control tower could probably supply that. But how would that be useful to him? The aviation authorities are not going to change their procedures for one person.

So, you are "puzzled" by my request for help [sic(k)].

I did not ask for "help". It seems many construed my OP as seeking "help". I wanted to know more about the subject so I can explore the issue or not.

TO ALL: While I appreciate the many comments answering the questions, I did not appreciate:

1. the egomaniacal types, in general, (usually cheap one-liners that are in keeping with the shallowness and their desire to boost their self-esteem at the expense of others (read below),
2. especially if you factor in #3, 4.)
3. the ones that remarked that I should have foreseen and extrapolated:
   • the making of the movie that would be one of the catalysts that has made CM a popular destination for Chinese, 
   • the multiple coups that would come about after I visited CM, which was a democracy at the time, and a general (pun intended) worsening of the situation,
   • the heavy floods in BKK that would be the catalysts for some of the population there to buy real estate to relocate when the going gets tough and wet,
   • the notion that airplanes, even 10 km away, are still noisy,
   • that flights' routes are highly variable,
   • that there are little checks and balances, concerns when it comes to flight angles and routes,
   • that GPS will/should be a newer way for establishing routes in the future (and know whether or not this will be adhered to in Thailand),
   • ...
4. the ones that remarked that I should:
   • relocate, which would be a great advice IF I did not have a wife, children, bought property here, etc. Some of it being true, which make the advice a pretty dumb one, in hindsight, don't you think. This was a common advice. (Some people fight and some people don't. Of course, some will say this is a quixotic fight. It is. It looks like it is at this juncture. Some people choose to fight the easy fights and some the quixotic fights because sometimes they morph into regular fights: slavery, women's equality, nationalisation and decolonisation, equality, liberty, ... But, why are you acting like a dictatorship? I thought you don't like dictators?)
   • relocate in town away from the routes, which on paper would make sense (even though that was not the main driver for the question. This would be like a smart advice, but as others have pointed out airplane noise in Thailand is the least of your worries. Hints: dogs' barking, temples, chicken, pigs being killed at 6 a.m., deaf neighbours living outside with a TV continuously working, partying/shouting/fighting by other neighbours, frog calls, 
   • I am --of course-- so extremely unreasonable that I would complain about these happening 24/7! That's quite a supposition, but the worst type make YOU a smarter person at all OP's expenses (you are next, unless you never ask any question because you know it all.  
   • not complain, but deploring the idea that idea is a dictatorship. (Is that dictatorship of the masses or the dictatorship affecting all of the sane people?)
   • phone the local control tower. (Really?) And then state, in the same advice, that this is futile advice since "the aviation authorities are not going to change their procedures for one person". DUH! Have you heard about petition, democracy lately? Google it. It is an interesting concept! Elections are coming. And don't tell me it is futile here so you can justify your beer drinking and self-centered lifestyle.
   • not complain because it was my own choice to move under the flight of the plane (which is a dumb statement if you read some of the items in #3, and ADD, that living in Saraphi or Doi Saket does not suit my lifestyle. But, you know, if you re-read the OP, my intentions are less personal as I figured hundreds of thousands of people are also affected. I guess they could also move. Is that your advice. I guess they/we could put up with it. Well! Duh!
   • move away from the airport, when the OP clearly state that I am complaining about the noise 10 kms away!
   • Buy a jack-hammer and move the airport (Sorry! I made that one up! The jackhammer idea, that is!),
   • seek a shrink because HE has never heard one airplane where he lives (which his near the airport, which is not the question),
   • pray (since I am an enlightened ... atheist).
5. the ones that remarked that I should not:
   • seek help! I will infer that this is the personal type of help. Please, read my username: I am "enlightened"! (There is another word that follows. You have to contextualize.) Second, read the OP. I am not seeking help as much as I am seeking information.

Thanks for the advice, but there were many that were of the wrong types, that were off-topic and off course (if you get the pun), of course.

15 hours ago, owl sees all said:

Could be a religous slant to this. But no!! Enlightened Athiest!!

 

Just concern for the Thai people; like me.

I am concerned about Thai people being exploited by others as much as I am concerned by some of my kind exploiting others. Plane noise at 12 a.m. and 6 a.m., when we know how important sleep is for humans and health, concerns me as much as pollution levels above the 100 mark. Noise is also a pollution. We all know how some people behave when they are deprived of sleep.

As to my name exposing my "non-religion" whenever I post, I chose it because we do not have the marketing power that temples, churches, mosques (and all of the other symbols, acts --auditory and visual-- use to proselytize their convictions. My name is a pale reminder that we exist. I hope this is not viewed as a violent crusade against the holders of the truth. I say "non-religion" because some people can get visas to "study their religion" * (I doubt atheists can) and, in general, start organizations (that have tax-free status) in the name of religion, etc. That I chose to put enlightened as a qualifier is to challenge the so-called holder of the truth's and of the enlightenment's thesis that they are the only one who are.

* to perform missionary work or other religious activities with the concurrence of the Thai Ministries or Government Departments concerned (Category "R") and 

to study, to come on a work study tour or observation tour , to participate in projects or seminars , to attend a conference or training course , to study as a foreign Buddhist monk (Category "ED")

10 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

I live on the final 1km approach from touch down in Chiang Mai every landing passes 2 houses down from me been here 3 years and never notice them and have never seen a passenger yet alone a waiving one.

Yes, but the OP talks about a different location (10 kms away), so ... your anecdote --while interesting-- does not confirm or contradict mine.