roath

I just go to BKK bank and pay for a new card 100 baht. No need for police report as they cancel the old card

Yes roath--very easy If you have a Thai card---impossible for me as I use my N.Z Visa to draw out cash--But I will learn someday

AND --to whom it concerns---I am not brain dead--just on holiday-- and not used to the system

yes quite right. forgot that wouldnt be as simple for non thai bank card users. if here regularly well worth getting one for cost for a single transaction on western atm card

I just go to BKK bank and pay for a new card 100 baht. No need for police report as they cancel the old card

As far as I am aware in extreme cases your British citizanship could be withdrawn I do not think running off with another guy would warrant this. Divorce is always hard but it happens and you have done well to get to 13 years of being together, when it happened to me I looked at it as being the start of a new chapter in a book ,take a trip to a lawyer and file for a divorce for the sake of the children's happiness try and come to an amicable arrangement with your wife good luck for the future !

If you could establish dishonesty with regard to the obtaining of the citizenship (e.g. if cheated on the English test, which used to be quite common before they brought in the more recent stringent checking) the citizenship could be revoked (although if you were aware of this at the time, then obviously that would make you an accessory before/after the fact).....

Just make sure that your wifes pp gets stamped at arrival airport. It cost me 5000bath for her to fly to bkk to get the stamp

Since customs cannot access immigration data. TIT

otherwise - no imortdjties on household goods if she has bee abroad more than 1 year.

Make sure she can proove with (old) pp

I shipped a house worth of stuff over without any duty (in Thai partner's name). She had lived in the UK for 12 years though which made a difference to how much stuff was being shipped. If away only a year, they don't expect so much stuff so that is something to be aware of.

Part of the problem is they are too cheap, or too "proud" to hire a NES to make sure the signs are in proper English.

It is there country. If you want to live here learn to read Thai. PERIOD.

many countries which have their own (non Roman) script and a large international and/or tourist presence (e.g. UAE and China) have (many) signs in english

Seriously? Signs should be in English? How arrogant!

How sensible - for a globally popular tourist resort, and a country about to open its borders to its regional bloc partners.

adding to that dont forget the official language of ASEAN is English

Todays comments from the U.K Independent newspaper concerning this horrific crime.

You need to go to the main page and then Asian News section as like yesterday the article link url comes back with a ''404'' notice.

One wonders why that should be?

http://www.independent.co.uk

Try to access the Daily Mail (UK) - the entire site is blocked completely!

I was refused to donate blood in BKK as I am from the UK and lived during the 1980s so I am (apparently) at risk of contracting mad cow disease

If you can manage it, keeping a spreadsheet of your wifes residency would be quite useful i.e. show periods in and out of UK (and evidence of better organisation gives better credibility with HO)

This comes up all the time and the answers dont change. bangkok bank provide an ATM account specifically for tourists. you just need resident proof (I used hotel receipt) and copies of passport. Kasikorn Bank neat T21 are also well known for giving atm accounts for tourists. TMB will give a bank account without WP if you can prove income from abroad but is best to have someone with you to persuade them as the default is often a simple no (and particularly if their English isnt good which means they dont want the aggro of going through options with a farang).

I had mine issued in Pattaya and replacement for stolen licence in Bangkok. Police report wad at Lumpini.

Many Thai's are not aware they can enter on a expired passport. Even personnel at some Thai embassies are not aware of it. There are many countries that allow their citizens to enter with an expired passport.

Info on extension. Many people have gotten it after entering on the wrong passport.

2.23 In the case of a person who used to have Thai nationality or whose parent is or was of Thai nationality visiting relatives or returning to his or her original homeland:

Each permission shall be granted for no more than one year.

(1) Must have evidence that the applicant used to have Thai nationality or that his her parent is or was of Thai nationality.

She could also apply for a 7 day extension, pay 1900 baht an get 7 days to leave the country. And then apply for the new 30 day extension on the 29th.

Just to let you know that my GF managed to get a one year extension today based on your advice so thank you.

On her second visit to Chaeng Wattana yesterday, she was pretty much told that she needed to go back to Buriram to make the application as that is where her family live and where she is registered for her tambien baan/Thai ID card. You may recall that on her first visit at CW, she had been told that she could only have 7 days and no more.

I thought that since CW didn't seem to be very helpful, a change of approach would seem to be called for, so as my GF's sister lives in Chonburi, I stuck my GF on a bus to Pattaya to meet with her sister at Jomtien immigration. I made sure she had a copy of the Police Order to which you have referenced above but they were apparently far more congenial at Jomtien and issued a one year extension without any quibble.

Third time lucky and thanks again for the advice which does prove the value of this forum! It is unfortunate that there are those who consider that clarification of advice being given is tantamount to ignoring such advice, and I would assure you that that is not the case. As I am professionally trained as a lawyer, I do tend to make sure that I understand the basis on which advice is being given, and its applicability, and "checking the facts" shouldn't be (and I hope hasn't been) taken as being discourteous in any way. It is simply making sure that I fully understand the advice and the applicability so that it is followed and applied correctly. As a number of posts on this thread have demonstrated, not all advice given, however seemingly authoritative, is correct or appropriate.

I appreciate also that I may have expressed frustration (and indeed incredulity) at the situation, but that is, I would have thought at least understandable. Anyway cheers to all who have been helpful, and apologies to anyone who has felt slighted in any way.

The ILR is superseded by citizenship as you correctly state. However, that does not "cancel" the ILR stamp.

I believe it does. At least, I have not heard of exclusion orders being made when Britons by naturalisation are deprived of citizenship.

It is not cancelled. It is superseded. There is a technical difference and a practical one (see my previous post). If citizenship is revoked you cannot revert back to ILR. I dont understand the relevance of the reference to exclusion orders as Citizenship can be revoked without an exclusion order being imposed.

Actually, the address in Bangkok can be a requirement for a 'Farang', dependent on the office. Lad Phrao, during the CW closure, required just that.

But she might have an issue when re-entering the UK, if she did manage to leave Thailand on her Thai passport.

That isnt correct. There would be no issue entering the UK. If using a biometric passport you go through an electronic booth which only checks the validity of your passport. Only Thailand cares about entry and exit stamps matching. actually it is illegal to even stamp an UK or EC passport on entry as that would imply immigration control over EC citizens

Your best buying a cheap Air Asia flight to anywhere and go out on the British one and renter on her Thai passport. Book an early flight and book the earliest flight back.

Agree if the girlfriend was going to be staying a long time.

Given we are looking at a 2 week overstay, then it is going to be 7k in fines or thereabouts. Might get a cheapy ticket to somewhere for 4 or 5k, not sure if it is with the 6 or 7 hour effort for the sake of saving 2k. Unless of course a short trip to Singapore for some shopping appealed.

For the two of us plus travel and accomodation it ends up being nearly double the overstay amount so you are bang on.

She has an ILR stamp in her British passport. The ILR remains technically valid even after citizenship.

I don't believe that is true. What is more to the point is that immigration officers don't notice that it has been superseded.

The ILR is superseded by citizenship as you correctly state. However, that does not "cancel" the ILR stamp. The UK authorities make no issue of the fact that both are actively used (i.e. using ILR for entry) even if they are aware that the individual in question has citizenship. As I mentioned earlier, many countries do not permit dual citizenship (China and India spring to mind, although from the above posts, Thailand may also qualify for some) in which case, if the ILR stamp were cancelled, it would cause serious difficulties for a number of nationals. The UK is very liberal in this regard. I personally know of someone who travels to China regularly and on at least one occasion was actively assisted by UK Border Agency officials to conceal the fact that she had left the UK on a UK passport rather than her Chinese passport by error (i.e. pretty much the same situation that my friend is in) based on the ILR stamp in her Chinese passport. I trust that this clarifies.

what do the actions and laws of other countries and what they would find unconscionable have to do with it?

Everything and nothing. That's pretty much the point...:-)

the point was : will there be a problem as per your top post. any comparisons have no purpose other than to criticize thailand yet again.

This isn't a playground. Comparisons have relevance for explaining the context in how the mistake was made (by making assumptions based on how other countries operate, and indeed how international law operates). What I posted would appear to be a common problem/experience for dual nationals, and apart from obtaining useful advice for my friend's situation, posts such as this can serve a useful purpose in educating others so that they learn from other's mistakes. No country is perfect, but highlighting discrepancies, inconsistencies and things which frankly make no sense logically or legally hardly constitutes "Thailand bashing" or necessitates trolling comments which themselves have no purpose other than to criticise the poster.

"I did say that she could try to enter on her Thai ID but she didn't believe me as her passport was expired and didn't think that it would be valid for entry which is understandable as in many countries an expired passport (or ID) isn't valid as proof."

AFAIK in all countries a citizen of that country will always be allowed entry.

"but really this is bonkers to charge a Thai for "overstaying" in her own country. In the UK, this would be unlawful, regardless of what passport the person entered on."

Are you sure about that? She is here as a UK citizen, not Thai, and I would presume it would be the same in other countries.

On what basis did she ask for extension today? Sounds like maybe she pissed of the officer (he being jealous of her living in the UK could have been enough for that). But as Joe said, if she applies for an extension based on being Thai that should be ok. Even her old passport and valid ID card should be enough proof of that.

very funny and crazy answers here,

a thai national dont need to pay overstay, and can not overstay,

she can leave on thai passport, if she has a new passport it is a valid document and

nobody can stop her on the border only if there is an arrest warrent on her name,

Previous posters are quite clear in stating that that that is not (apparently) the case. My friend was told by immigration this morning that if she doesn't extend, she will need to pay overstay on leaving Thailand even though she was at immigration to collect her brand new passport, has a Thai ID and a tambien baan. So Thai Immigration seem to concur that a Thai national needs to pay overstay regardless of being a Thai national if they entered as an "alien".

When your wife was granted ILR, she should have been provided with a letter confirming ILR. This letter can also be used as proof of ILR. If lost, you should be able to apply for a replacement (or get the Home Office to write to confirm ILR which would then become proof of ILR). Provided that your wife has not lost ILR through being outside of the UK for an extended period of time (as stated above), ILR continues until death effectively. You only need the visa stamp if you leave the country but it would retain validity in an old passport (although you may wish to transfer to a new passport for convenience). Many nationalities need to keep their ILR stamps if their "home" country forbids dual nationality (e.g. China) so it is far from uncommon for people to hold onto their ILR stamp in their "home" country passport even if they acquire British citizenship. Generally, the Home Office tend to be very tolerant of this. I am not familiar with the new requirements, but law is not retrospective in the UK so whatever changes are wrought would only be applicable going forwards (and if not, would be open to an application for judicial review, and have been done so in the past)

what do the actions and laws of other countries and what they would find unconscionable have to do with it?

Everything and nothing. That's pretty much the point...:-)

Before coming to Thailand, I was a lawyer in the UK for 25 years and was dealing with immigration law for 5 years so you may wish to think again before posting comments as to what may or may not be difficult for someone else to understand particularly where your own understanding may be flawed and/or wrong...

Come to think of it, you are absolutely right. Any person of sound mind reading your comments quoted below would immediately realise that you had not the slightest difficulty understanding and acknowledging the fact that Thai immigration expects a Thai/UK dual national who elected to enter Thailand on her UK passport to use the same passport upon departure from Thailand.

...really this is bonkers to charge a Thai for "overstaying" in her own country...

...You are not correct about her being here as a British national...

...I still think that it is legally wrong regardless of which passport was used. I doubt that the powers that be care too much and probably take the view that if she lives abroad, she can afford to pay so what's the problem? As always TIT...

I do understand and acknowledge the fact that what you state regarding entering and exiting on the same passport would appear to be a/the requirement in Thailand. At the very least, this would appear to be the practical requirement, although no-one has quoted the law which means that what may be insisted at by immigration may not actually be what the law demands. My friend's experience today at immigration where she was refused any sort of extension when according to the posts, she should have been offered a year extension, would bear that up. It does, however remain the case that many countries do not have the same requirements as Thailand, and indeed could not do so. Furthermore, many countries would find the idea of fining their own nationals for "overstaying" because they entered on the "wrong" passport rather unconscionable (and indeed, it would illegal in many countries, and certainly the UK). I do not think that stating such a view means that I am "struggling" with reality or whatever is being implied or expressed. There have been some very helpful comments, for which I am obliged, and which deal directly with the situation without having the need to pass judgment or pontificate on the mistakes or misunderstandings of others (something which we are all guilty of at some time or another). Anyway, I hope that that clears the air. Cheers.

Might have to fly out and in just avoid real trouble or just pay the overstay of two weeks...

Don't push them or they can make it nasty for her...

They can't make it nasty. The Immigration act applies to "aliens", but she is not. One does not renounce nationality when entering with a foreign passport. Legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

Best not push this one too far; as I understand it, Thailand doesn't recognize dual nationality, although it may tolerate it.

.

Thai Nationality Act B.E. 2508 Chapter 2, Section 22 as amended by Acts 2, 3 B.E.2535 and Act 4 B.E. 2551.

A person of Thai nationality who has been natuarlised as an alien, or who has renounced Thai Nationality, or whose Thai Nationality has been revoked, shall loose Thai Nationality.

This assertion comes up regularly, but is not a valid assertion as the law was changed quite a number of years ago. Dual nationality is permitted and perfectly legitimate. Previous threads give the legal authority for this if you need to check. You can revoke Thai nationality if you want to once you obtain another nationality, but it is not a requirement and would be rare in practice (perhaps to avoid military service or extradition or some such extreme circumstance).

Good friend of mine has a Thai partner, she did exactly the same thing and entered Thailand on her European Passport, as her Thai passport was expired and she also was unaware that she could still have used her expired Thai Passport.

She went to her local immigration and was given a one year extension of stay, no questions asked, based purely on showing her Thai ID card and copy of her name entry in a Tabien Baan.

Suggest your friend either:

1) goes back to her local Thai Immigration and asks for a one year extension which she is definitely entitled to, which I guess would fall under National Police Order 327/2557 Case 2.23.

2) Flies out of Thailand before overstay and re-enters on her new Thai passport (showing the old one for the exit stamp if necessary).

If your friend remains and goes into overstay on her UK passport, then she will definitely be charged at 500 THB per day up to the maximum of 20,000 THB - that's the law.

I appreciate the advice. However, she was told that she would have to go back to Buriram to make any application as that is where she is registered on her tambien baan. The immigration officer was very unhelpful as I mentioned in previous posts. If she goes back to Chaeng Wattana tomorrow, she might have better luck I accept (although it really shouldn't be about the luck of the draw - yes, yes, TIT, I know).

Ultimately, between the cost of the application/s and the travel involved (and definitely if she does have to return to Buriram to get an extension), it is just cheaper to bite the bullet and pay the overstay at the airport and learn from one's mistakes (and hopefully others will too from this post). Cheers everyone anyway.

Roath, this may be difficult for you to understand, but by presenting her UK passport to the Thai immigration officer on her arrival in Thailand your friend made a formal request to be granted permission to stay in Thailand in her capacity as a UK national, with all the rights and duties that this may entail. It was your friend who made this choice, not the immigration officer.

It was your friend's right as a UK national to enter Thailand on her UK passport and exercising this right she entered into the obligation to leave Thailand on her UK passport. As I said, this may be difficult for you, and impossible for your friend, to understand.

Having said that, there have been cases reported by Thai dual nationals who entered Thailand with the foreign passport and left with a newly issued Thai passport, but that was before the introduction of biometric passports, and they planned never again to travel to Thailand on either passport.

Before coming to Thailand, I was a lawyer in the UK for 25 years and was dealing with immigration law for 5 years so you may wish to think again before posting comments as to what may or may not be difficult for someone else to understand particularly where your own understanding may be flawed and/or wrong.

I fully appreciate that regardless of what common sense may dictate, and indeed regardless of what the laws in Thailand may actually state in reality, the practice of immigration officers when dealing with dual nationals can and does vary (just look at numerous previous posts), and there may be lacuna such as the requirement to enter and exit on the same passport (in respect of which I assure you is not a requirement of many countries which permit dual nationality.

Your post seems to suggest that one is an "either/or" citizen, and that you choose your citizenship at the point of entry, which is simply not correct. There may be an issue regarding the choice of nationality at entry but that cannot (or should not as a matter of citizenship law) impact on your rights as a citizen of that country. According to your logic, my friend should be arrested for overstaying if she does not extend her visa, which of course is a nonsense as she has an absolute right to be in Thailand once she is here.

In the UK, it would be unlawful for any government agency to seek to charge a citizen for entering and remaining in its own territory. Clearly, that is, for whatever reason, and however reasonable and unreasonable, is not the case in Thailand. I have sought some practical advice for dealing with this, and pontification is neither helpful, appropriate, nor correct in this instance.

... just shows how silly some rules can be...

There are indeed quite a few silly rules in this world, but in this particular case there is nothing at all silly about the rule; it is the dual-nationality traveller who was silly or stubborn or whatever you want to call it.

To say that a national can be fined or arrested (for being on technical overstay) whilst residing in the country of which they are a citizen is something out of Monty Python. In fairness, not many people would know that they can enter on an expired passport (and in fairness, in many countries you cannot). Live and learn and I am grateful for the useful information provided by others on this post.