cumgranosalum

Only old Americans know anything about WW2, because they fought in one of the theaters, watched movie newsreels, read newspapers and listened to the radio during that era. Much of what they were told was myths, lies and exaggerations. There's a reason why WW2 documents have been sealed for 100 years. To give the allied war criminals time to die off. Today's generation of Americans don't care about WW2 anymore then they care about what is really going on at home and abroad. What they hear during 15 seconds of news watching as they are running out the door to work is enough for them. Many American kids believe, the U.S and Germany fought against Russia. Good luck with enlightening the Thai.

You might be right about a lot of the above. The last statement is humorous, and unfortunately, maybe true. I'd actually take it a little further by saying many American kids don't even know that Russia fought in WW II.

Oral history?

To some who don't understand thr study of history it may seem counter intuitive but........the reality is that although oral history has a place, the last person to "know" about any event in history is someone who was there - in reality our understanding of history gets better the further we distance ourselves - it give a better perspective, more objectivity and of course access often to documents that certainly weren't available to the man in the street at the time.

The truth of the matter is that many of the expats and nearly ALL of the tourists I speak to have absolutely no idea of what happened in this region during the second world war.....it even includes those who fought here..........most Europeans see the WW2 as a European affair and conveniently forget it was even at the time at least by the end called a WORLD war.

When it comes to the details of deaths and casualties most westerners have a lamentably lop-sided perspective - and that even includes US troops stationed out here....as for the "bridge over the River Kwai" - that was a movie based on a novel by a Frenchman with the name of the river changed by the local thai authorities and the bridge in the wrong location.......

Yes, there were huge numbers who lost their lives there - mostly Asian forced labourers - whilst not denying the sacrifice of the allied troops lets also try to get the facts straight ourselves before criticising those who were, for one reason or another, on the "other" side for not having the same perspective as a westerner of the conflicts of the 1930s and 40s....and after..........

Oh jeez, have to get the flail out again. I've only just put it away after the last self-scourging session.

And the award for the most facetious reply goes to.....

The truth of the matter is that many of the expats and nearly ALL of the tourists I speak to have absolutely no idea of what happened in this region during the second world war.....it even includes those who fought here..........most Europeans see the WW2 as a European affair and conveniently forget it was even at the time at least by the end called a WORLD war.

When it comes to the details of deaths and casualties most westerners have a lamentably lop-sided perspective - and that even includes US troops stationed out here....as for the "bridge over the River Kwai" - that was a movie based on a novel by a Frenchman with the name of the river changed by the local thai authorities and the bridge in the wrong location.......

Yes, there were huge numbers who lost their lives there - mostly Asian forced labourers - whilst not denying the sacrifice of the allied troops lets also try to get the facts straight ourselves before criticising those who were, for one reason or another, on the "other" side for not having the same perspective as a westerner of the conflicts of the 1930s and 40s....and after..........

Oh jeez, have to get the flail out again. I've only just put it away after the last self-scourging session.

And the award for the most facetious reply goes to.....

Here is a link to a Youtube video that covers everything that lead to WWll and everything that happened in the West and the East. This link is to the first of the 13 episodes covering the whole thing. Very interesting to watch and if you watch it with her you can explain some of the details as it plays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mFG0Du_DKU

It doesn't even go into any detail of the profound importance of the Balfour declaration or the reality of the Lusitania sinking, much less the jostling over Mesopotamia which is the linchpin of the story. Victor red herring claptrap to disguise the reality of ... oh never-mind. They won convincingly, both the war and the propaganda. To this day.

The pop version of history for people who want to eat cake only.

Those who rely solely on TV and movies for their history will NEVER get the whole picture.....to do that you need to read and be guided by teachers...there are no shortcuts to understanding.

More Thais, through forced labour, died on the Burma railway than all the Western POWs put together. The same applied to the ones who were forced to construct roads, such as from Mae Teng to Pai etc.

None of this was on any history curriculum during my educational years. Much was learned from post war movies, as previously stated. Also by my travels through Thailand.

From my experience of the educational system in Australia, much is made of this and of WWI, Gallipoli, on ANZAC day, without much referennce that in the latter four times more Btits died there than the total nomber Aussies and Kiwis. Its just the collective inferiority complex that drives the Aussies nationalist need for international regocnition that requires a white only history like this to be taught. Maybe a recognition of Marbo will be taught soon?

How much do you know about the history of Thailand?

Maybe the age gap between you and your tgf, and relevant number of years of both your countries history should be considered?

You are right about the maths at Gallipoli, and the fact that there is a lot of misconception about what happened there.....but that isn't what Gallipoli is about for Aussies....it is far more connected with National identity....something that is still not put to rest a century later.

I had UK comprehensive school education 60's early 70's and history classes only went up to around the Henry VIII era so modern history (as it was then) was not on the syllabus. Surprised that PresburyPark had it on his syllabus as I thought the history syllabus was the same all around the country.... obviously I stand corrected!!

As for Kannot and Russia's millions of deaths ..... whilst some contributable by War I think that their very own Mr. Stalin in his quest to change the Peasant style country into an Industrial powerhouse to rule the world may have had a far greater contribution to the demise of many a Russian life..

There are many people here who seem to be forming opinions out of their own ignorance of WW2.

Their Euro-centric view actually blinds them to the realities of this conflict to others---the theatre of war in Europe is as strange to Thais as is the war in Asia to these people - to the untutored European Hitler started the war and the British won helped by the Americans.....this is just pure nonsense if you look at the situation throughout the world over the 30s, 40s and 50s...and beyond...

Also despite living in Thailand, it seems many expats haven't a clue about Thai history or Thai behaviour, preferring to make arrogant judgments about how "uneducated' or ignorant Thai people are and by implication how superior they are all based on their own distorted view of history that they call WW2.

Before you condescendingly "explain" WW2 to a Thai person (I'm guessing you don't differentiate which), you need to make sure you actually understand WW2 yourself......living in Thailand since the 90s has enabled me to seriously review my perspectives on what we in the "West" call WW2....

I and others know the other historical reference..... But that doesn't make it any more palatable in a modern context.

And it's not just the modern era Nazi symbol that gets used, but also likenesses of Hitler as well... And he has no context in Sanskrit.

...apart from the fact that "Sawasdee khap" and "Sawastika" are the same expression?

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Those books are illegal here and I cannot even say why. Even semi fictional films concerning historical Thai figures are still banned here.

Some books are banned here.......not all good history books are banned - I have read alot of books over the years that have turned out to be banned in one place or another - the great thing is you can't unread a book or actually effectively ban it. In fact you could argue that banning a book only makes it more powerful.

There are some pretty draconian laws in this country regarding freedom of expression and they aren't getting any better.....but they do not to any great extent account for the western perception of lack of knowledge of WW2

but why would a 35 year old thai be interested in adolf, winston and josef?

Perhaps the answer to that questions is found in the various versions of the following quote

“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

That's why you've got Thais running around using the Nazi symbol and such for pop culture or business purposes -- because they have no idea what it means, or what occurred under those banners.

Perhaps that's also why some countries end up with a succession of failed governments and military dictators, because they never learn from past history that such things usually end badly for their people.

But hey, why pay attention to history, why look back at where we've been and how we got to where we are today. That's just complicated, boring old stuff... We really don't want to focus too much on what's gone on the past 85 years or so.

"“Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.”

― Edmund Burke

“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana)

which is precisely what the USA is trying to do now.

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Just because there are books out there that may tell a reasonably accurate version of history doesn't by any stretch mean that that is the content being taught to students in Thai public schools.

It's also been my experience that the ordinary Thai under say 40 years old -- not bargirls and such -- is woefully ignorant of even the most basic elements of history involving things such as WWII.

So... it's one of two things.... either schools aren't teaching that content... or the entire country sleeps through history class in school.

From the Thais I've spoken with on the subject who attended and graduated from regular Thai public schools and public universities, 20th century world history didn't seem to be much present in their curriculum.

------------------

I should have added...to teach about world history, you kind of have to have some idea of what and where the world is... like... what/where is Britain, Germany, Europe, France, Austria, etc etc etc.. In equal measure, most ordinary Thais seem equally ignorant about world geography.. Australia... Austria... same same... right?

so your premise that they are "not allowed" is wrong and as I pointed out earlier just because they don't know the same memes as you it doesn't actually confirm their ignorance so much as your lack of understanding.

This of course is not the case - there are a lot of history books and papers both in Thai and English that lay out some very interesting interpretations of Thai history. Whilst it is true that these books often fall from favour or even get banned from time to time, the research and resulting information is there to be read. There are in fact some very good Thai history books that can be bought "off the self". as well as Universities that continue to teach history as it should be taught. Just as in other countries they are often criticised rather clumsily by the local media or the authorities.

Without having read the entire tread, I just want to say this. You must be a patient person. It is totally impossible. Just see their vision for Hitler and as they behave. Most Thai do not know a damn thing regarding world history. Most they do not even know what's going on in their own country. So why should they know what is happening and has happened in the big world.

Which is just the same fopr expats, it's just they have this arrogant assumption that the history THEY know is "better" than the history Thai people know - talk about the blind leading the blind.

I'll bet if you asked the average Thai what the vast "Victory' Monument in Bangkok was all about they wouldn't be able to tell you, or they would say it was to celebrate a huge victory, victory over who they probably couldn't say either.

If you should state that it was a series of minor skirmishes in which a grand total of 59 Thais died fighting a colonial force whose mother Country had been overrun and it resulted in the regaining a of a couple of Cambodian provinces ceded to the French some 40 years before they probably wouldn't believe you. Then if you stated that after WWII those same Provinces had to be given back to Cambodia because Thailand lost, they probably would be incredulous.

Victors write the history books and the losers try to hide their shame. It's happening today, I doubt you find a text book with the name Shinawatra in it in a Thai school today.

think the above poster has missed the point to many Thais this is a source of embarrassment - a reminder or throwback to the fascist/imperialist policies that got them nowhere during WW2.

many Thais will avoid confrontation on this kind of topic and simply ignore or change the subject. .....Especially if someone appears to be using it to take a dig at their country.

There is also the perceived impoliteness of broaching this subject. It is not a particularly great era for Thailand and many Thai people may simply not want to enter into a discussion, so for the sake of Kreng Jai they will just say "i don't know", which in thai terms is acceptable way of ending that line of conversation. I find women are more likely to do this too,

There is also the perceived impoliteness of broaching this subject. It is not a particularly great era for Thailand and many Thai people may simply not want to enter into a discussion, so for the sake of Kreng Jai they will just say "i don't know", which in thai terms is acceptable way of ending that line of conversation. I find women are more likely to do this too,

Given Thailand's collusion with Japan during WW2 it is probably no surprise that the subject is not spoken about in Thai schools.

Umm, you sure? There's a small museum in Phrae dedicated to the memory of the Thai underground anti-Japanese resistance in WW II. They taught British and American intel agents how to survive in SE Asian jungles, engaged in anti-Japanese sabotage, and radioed information on Japanese military activities and troop strength in Thailand to the Allies in Sri Lanka (Ceylon).

The Thai government was given an offer they couldn't refuse* by the Japanese, who were headed to Burma from China, but I wouldn't say Thailand 'colluded" with the Japanese.

* Basically, declare war on the Allies, or else!

That "offer they couldn't refuse" was the same one given to Belgium, Holland, Denmark etc. wasn't it? Somehow those nations did refuse.

And no, Thailand did not collude with the Japanese: they joined them and became full allies and declared war on the western nations, even to the surprise of the Japanese!

That underground anti-Japanaese resistance was the Seri Thai, the best equipped, best communicating, best organized, best supported, and least effective of all anti-Axis resistance forces in all of World War II. They did radio information about bomb targets and damage reports, and rescued a few downed airmen, but caused no damage to the Japanese forces whatsoever.

Yes - The situation between Thailand and Japan as a member of the Axis - was not the same as Belgium, Holland and Denmark - who incidentally were not the same as each other either.....this is in reality an example of how little even westerners really understand the events of what we call WW2 in Europe, let alone Asia.

Apart from our own home countries, it would seem our knowledge is in fact usually very scanty. Time and again, I meet expats who have absolutely no idea whatsoever of Thailand's role in WW2 (or WW1). There was in fact a recent thread on ThaiVisa started by someone who seemed not even to know which side they were on.

Get the movie Bridge on the River Kwaai with Thai sub titles sorted

That's not a bad idea. Many Thais died working on that railroad system. But as far as explaining WW2? Most Thais really are not taught much about the outside world. They don't have an appreciation of the size and scale of things. One girl I was with thought Thailand was so big. She was genuinely stunned as I showed her maps of the USA and how big some of the USA States were, with several being larger than Thailand. The ideas of thousands of ships and planes and millions of men and different ideologies would be a tall order to try and explain

Although I agree that many Thai people can be astoundingly parochial, it needs to be seen in context - during my travels in the States and subsequent dealings with US business people in Europe i found myself plumbing the depths of parochialism in a way that made Thailand seem positively cosmopolitan (a word that most Thai people sadly don't understand). You will also find that most Brits are shocked to find that Thailand is twice the size of UK with a similar population - they don't even know the relative size of next-door neighbour, france with a smaller population.....Parochialism is not the preserve of Thailand.

So many times what we assume to be "general knowledge" - is in fact a culturally based meme. - To assume that because someone doesn't know something you know, they are ignorant is actually a sign of one's own ignorance, not theirs.

Given Thailand's collusion with Japan during WW2 it is probably no surprise that the subject is not spoken about in Thai schools.

Apart from a resistance army of about 90,000?

Loads of great documentaries on youtube regarding world war 2. Best way to explain it is to watch some with her.

Do they have subtitles in Thai? or are they dubbed?

Did you not notice that I said watch with her.

Why would they have to be in Thai or dubbed?

I'm pretty sure the English speaking OP can explain it to her if she is unable to understand English, but by the OP stating she is educated and intelligent I'm sure she can understand spoken English considering he has already been trying to explain it to her.

Always has to be at least one foolish comment in every topic, and yours seems to be that one.

As someone who has taught at Thai universities I can tell you that most students do not have the language skills to explain historical theory in fact I'd say that most expats don't either, in their own language, let alone in Thai.

Didnt do WW2 in school, they focused "history" on ancient history and upto the time of HenryVIII.

Everything I know and learned about WW2 I probably gained from TV documetaries and particularly movies.

Like, Battle of Britain,Dam Busters, 633 Squadron, Great Escape, Reach for the sky, longest day, and so on.

A regular Sunday afternoon movie feature on TV.

Took a Thai history class when going to University here in Thailand

Also confirm no mention of world

War 1 or WWII it went straight from ancient times into more recent past

Only part that was included was the names of kings and PMs that were in charge in the early - mid 1900's but no discussion of the details of what was going on during that period

you should have changed University.

Why?

I wasn't majoring in Thai history or world history ...

It was a basis 101 course and free elective ..

Was quite happy with the quality of the core course

so not really in a position to make a nationwide judgement then?

Loads of great documentaries on youtube regarding world war 2. Best way to explain it is to watch some with her.

Do they have subtitles in Thai? or are they dubbed?

This person can't be very educated as you say.

When I was speaking to an educated Thai professional about WW2, he knew quite a great deal about it.

He was also fully aware of Thailand's appeasement of the Japanese and was quite ashamed of this, however

he did make me aware of a Thai resistance movement I knew nothing about.

Not all Thai people are as ignorant as this person.

That's absurd!

I don't think the OP meant "educated" in the sense of being well-read on the intricate details of WWII theaters in Southeast Asia and historical geo-politcal agendas.

Please give the OP the benefit of doubt and try to be more constructive with the rather interesting aspects of the story you bring to this topic.

My question to you, how old was this educated Thai man you are referring to? What is his interest, pastime, and profession?

To explain the OP needs to realise that East and West perspectives on that period in history - from the 1930s to the 1950s after quite different and he seems to expect this person to see it from a European/Western perspective - so he probably needs to reassess his own perspective of "WW2" - first.

This person can't be very educated as you say.

When I was speaking to an educated Thai professional about WW2, he knew quite a great deal about it.

He was also fully aware of Thailand's appeasement of the Japanese and was quite ashamed of this, however

he did make me aware of a Thai resistance movement I knew nothing about.

Not all Thai people are as ignorant as this person.

Your 'professional' I suspect is one of very few.

One does not have to be uneducated to know little or nothing about history.

There is some research (cannot be bothered to dig out the detail) conducted among Western youth which challenged their knowledge of modern history.

The outcome would accord with your belief that those who do not know are, ipso facto, uneducated despite being able to display great knowledge/skill in other subject areas.

I think that in reality if you assessed comparable demographics in both East and West, you'd find that lack of knowledge or understanding of WW2 is about the same....the difference being that European and Americans THINK they know alot about WW2 but in reality all they know is from movies and TV.....a media based perception.....Thailand is in their own way, no more guilty than the west of spreading disinformation as and when convenient.

(snip)...Thailand is much older than Australia...

I think the Aboriginal Australians might disagree with that statement.

I think SL's post is another example of the Euro-centric perception of history.