plachon

"Fresh water pla?...I wouldn't feed that to my cat. If you've lived in Central Thailand and tried the local cuisine you may know what I mean."

No, don't know what you mean? I've been eating it for 7 years with no ill effects, and if you think Thai sea fish (full of lead, mercury, etc) or prawns are any safer than F/W fish, then I'm sorry to break it to you. I used to try and feed pla thu (3 in a basket mini-mackerel) to my cat and she refused to eat them. Seemed like she didn't fancy the preservatives they lace them with (formalin i suspect). And it's well known that the Gulf of Thailand is full of mercury and other heavy metals which accumulate in fish flesh as it goes up the food chain (remember Minimata disease?).

F/W fish can be laced with antibiotics (esp. cage raised CP tilapia), but then so can prawns and some sea fish, like those expensive bass. It all comes down to rearing method or the "intensity" of culture. Intensive culture, whether practiced in cages or ponds, tends to lead to stress in fish, as it does with pigs, chickens, ducks, etc. and  the farmer tries to overcome the diseases thus caused by using various drugs, esp. antibiotics. In the West, their use is strictly controlled, here it's a different matter - just walk in any pharmacy and you'll get the picture, and it's the same for animal raising.  

If you follow my advice and go for semi-intensive (integrated farming) or extensive fish raising, you'll avoid the need for drugs or heavy use of feed concentrates and raise a healthy, delicious product (at least for Thais, if not yourself) - after all, I thought you wanted to raise for the market, not to feed you own family?! But still do lots of reading up and get advice from others already in the business. It is hard work and competitive, but a lot more rewarding than rice, if that's what the in-laws are currently doing.

PS. The fishery dept., run training courses too, which would be useful for your family. Good luck and don't write of F/W fish just cos of your own delicate palate!

Your best bet would be to go with your family around to your local provincial fishery station and ask them for advice, plus extension booklets that they normally hold on file. They'll also probably be able to give you the names of some other farmers who are already doing prawn farming in your area and then you can go and get some advice straight from the horses mouth (though you may have to take any financial figures with a pinch of salt).

Which brings me neatly to my next point. The black tiger prawns, so common in the coastal farms Edward B was referring to, are marine creatures, but can be reared in inland ponds, so long as brackish water is introduced which lots of Thais in central Thailand have done, made a profit and screwed up the local environment. With the best will in the world, your in-laws are not likely to be too concerned about the state of the environment, looking  more at the bottom line, but if they ever want to return to normal terrestial farming in the future, then i would strongly recommend you think a bit further than a few years profits. Why not farm just regular freshwater fish (pla nin, pla nai, pla tapien, etc.), which have less overheads, less risk, less profit, but are always in demand? You can integrate them with livestock, vegetables, fruit growing etc., giving lots of work and lots of fun!

Wahay Maichai! Dr PP's got the hump with you again and is stirring old s...t. At least he didn't wipe your posts off the board though (need I say more?). Coming from a "noisy" country and being one of the ones miffed about the jump in visa prices, I'd just like to say this once more. Thailand's economy heavily depends on tourism and ex-pats living here. Britain has a more diversified economy and can afford to lose some inflows from countries that are high-risk for coming for more than a holiday. We're all price-sensitive creatures and 400 % price jumps are steep in anyone's book (bar Dr PP's it seems). Some people will be put off from coming / staying, or others may just curtail their visit (cut out the extension). Ordinary people who rely on these people's income will be hurt as a result. The govt. may make some more income,but I doubt if it'll be plowed back into better service at the embassies / consulates. The price jumps are just the thin end of a very big wedge which is being driven in by the present non-laissez faire regime. Some may like it, others may not, we've all got our own opinions. But don't get too sanctimonious about other's Dr PP - I clearly remember you advising someone that a bottle of Scotch might do the trick in getting their visa approved in an earlier posting.

Wonder how long this post will be allowed to stay?

There's no need to sprinkle it on from a salt cellar, 'cos the food is so heavily laden with it already, from half a dozen sources/sauces! But what really has changed in recent decades has been the wholesale conversion of Thais to "pong chu rot" - the dreaded MSG. I love Thai food and think the combination of flavours are great (with certain exceptions like dipping fruit in sugar, chilli, salt mixture), but I'm now really starting to watch what I eat out the home, because I know that most restaurants are really ladeling the MSG in their dishes. There's a good chance that this maybe why intestinal related illnesses and cancers are on the rise, but it's likely to be a whole combination of factors.

Anyway, I no longer regard Thai food eaten out of the home as a healthy option and get bored of telling restaurants to leave the MSG out of our food. The message rarely gets back to the cook in any case. Anyway, it would be an interesting piece of research for somebody to do for a PhD - are people really addicted to MSG and like other "drugs", does this mean that doses have been steadily rising over the years? We're the only h/hold I know that doesn't keep any MSG on our kitchen shelves. Eat in for healthy food!

Dexlowe, I think you're being way too harsh on Mark. I'm no expert on the Thai legal system, but I've lived here long enough to know that unless you have lots of dosh or good connections, there is very little chance you'll get a fair hearing, esp. in a case where it appears "the good reputation of Thailand" is at stake. Therefore, it is very unlikely that we, the general public, would ever get to hear anymore about this case again, even when in the mists of time it did come to court (has any clear timetable of the judicial process been given to Mark by the way?). Although, it is not the ideal way to present his side of the story, it probably is one of the best methods, given the limitations of the local press in covering such incidents, probably far more common than most people realise. One only has to pick up one of the more colourful and sensational of the Thai-language papers and one would realsie that knife attacks that lead to death and serious injury are all too common in Thailand, never mind the crime magazines (many committed under the influence of alcohol and/or hard drugs).

Mark, I think, has put across his side of the story in a calm and rational way, with his feet firmly on the ground i'd say. The loss of his friend's eye is tragic, but unfortunately in Thailand, in the greater scheme of things, this is not a major news story, and so what would have got extensive press coverage in many Western countries, is quickly buried and forgotten. Letting "justice take its course", as some posts have suggested is also a forlorn hope, I fear. Would that it were different, but don't get your hopes up.

This whole issue of land ownership and how it is rapidly concentrating in the hands of a few super-rich Chinese-Thai families (and perhaps a few Indian-Thai ones in select spots), makes a mockery of the standard answer why farangs shouldn't be able to buy land. The answer I've always read and heard from people I've asked is that "farangs are wealthy and if they bought land, then Thais wouldn't be able to afford to buy any". But as the vast majority of Thais have already sold their land and will never be able to afford any land due to the artificially inflated prices which occurred during the last bubble and are now here again, then it is largely academic what effect a few farangs married to Thais would have on the price of land.

I do know though, that as not only me but my Thai wife can't buy any land legally and easily, that I will never assist her to buy an immovable asset which i will never have any rights to, which thus deprives Thailand of a potential revenue source, not only from the cost of land, but the cost of building a house and any other investment in the future I might make there. It's the country's loss, not mine, as the present system will cause the whole pack of cards to come tumbling down one day. Meanwhile, the present Minister of Health can enjoy her 727 plots (no exaggerration) of land.

You surprise me Wolf, when you say you don't know Thais who eat salt directly. EVERY Thai I know eats heaps of the stuff daily, and I don't think it's just a regional thing (I live in Isaan). They eat it in salted meats, fish (pla kem) and vegetables (esp. preserved bamboo shoots). They have loads of it in their daily favourite - somtam, along with sugar, MSG, etc, in both the fish sauce (nam pla) and fermented fish (pla rah) - which is every b/g's staple diet. And most of the other Isaan dishes contain lashings of pla rah, while central and southern Thais compensate with the equally salty shrimp paste (ga-pee).

Then there are all the other sauces and dips which all contain varying quantities of salt. Lastly, have you not noticed the common way of eating fruits like pineapple and mango - dip them in a chilli, sugar and salt combination - rather than let then natural taste of the fruit suffice. The conclusion is most Thais are addicted to extremes of taste whether it's spicy, sweet, sour or salty. In the past, with a balanced diet around rice, fish, veg and small amounts of meat and plenty of exercise (in the rice fields), this was no problem and the salt was sweated out. But now, the diet's changed along (more junk foods) with the lifestyle getting more sedentary, and blooming obesity is the inevitable result.

In the West, it's just too much sugar, fat chips and MacDonald's burgers with a couch-potato lifestyle that's to blame. Is this what Thailand really wants to emulate?

Where did you get that figure from? i.e. 75 % of land owned by just 5 families? I've read before in a Bangkok Post editorial that 90 % of the land is owned by 10 % of the population, but then there's over 60 million people in the kingdom, which is a lot different than just 5 families owning three quarters.

However, neither of these stats seem to tally with my general observations in Isaan that most families own at least some land, even if it's mortgaged up to the hilt and the documents are sitting in the "tor gor sor" or money lenders office. I know the situation re. land ownership for villagers is much worse in central and northern Thailand, but as Isaan makes up a third of the kingdom, then this makes the figs of most of the land being in the hands of just a few, still seem pretty unlikely.

I don't doubt for a minute that with the way things are going under this present administration that soon most of Thailand will be in the hands of the super-rich and it will be another Scotland/Ireland 200 years ago, with hungry villagers roaming the landscape, desperate to escape to somewhere else, anywhere else. Trouble is there are no Americas or other wildernesses to absorb them now and the walls are going up round the West.

I'm in agreement with you there Mrentoul, tho' it seems no one else (so far) has had the same experience, or perhaps they just don't realise their posts have been erased? I can understand a certain level of prudent censorship on sensitive issues like the Royal Family, and have no objections there, but since when has Dr P had blue blood I wonder? Like I said, our posts were very mild and fair criticism, and could not be construed as insulting. The guy does have a tendency to savage others, often without reading their full posts or misunderstanding them, and then give extremely short answers, with very little constructive input. A contrast in styles to the helpful other moderators, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he should remove himself as a moderator. Perhaps just reform a wee bit and definitely refrain from draconian censorship, that benefits no-one but himself.

Still left wondering what though is the Forum policy on censorship. Who has the decision on what goes and what stays?

I've noticed a couple of times, messages I've posted being removed without comment, the last time being on a thread started by MaiChai about the general topic of Visa fees increase and his experiences at the Liverpool consulate. The person who posted after me ("Mrentoul" I think), also had his message deleted. The only possible reason I can think for this is that we both gave a mild rebuke about Dr Patpong's criticism of certain earlier posts. nothing personal or seditious, just general observation of style. Most of the posting related to other stuff totally unconnected to Dr P and of interest to all people I would imagine. But both postings have just been wiped away.

So, my question is this: What is your policy re. censorship and do the "panelists" confer before they take such a draconian action? It certainly seems Singapore-style extreme to me and would be interested to hear if anyone else has had the same experience on this Forum and if so, how much "free-speech" is allowed? Or does it come down to the sensitivity of just one member of the panel?

Hey guys, chill out and think this thru' calmly. What sparked this whole thread was the fact some govt. bigwig went down to Nana and claimed he counted "27 places" showing lewd or obcene shows. So in other words he was counting regular Go-Go joints in his total. He says they want to close down these places as they "bring the low life tourists that Thailand no longer wants or needs". So, if he's a man of his word he'll be shut them all down and bye-bye goes all the clientele down to Nana and anyweher else they decide to clamp down on. But TiT and he's a politician and this kind of thing happens all the time and pretty soon things return to normal again (any body been down Nana lately to report on reality, cos I haven't?).

But what's different with this govt. is the boss has an absolute majority, there's nobody challenging him and he rather likes the feeling of absolute power. this is a first for a "democratic" govt., and so there's nothing to comapre it with in the past. So let's just suppose that Toxin is a moral crusader and is serious about cleaning up Thailand's image for real, instead of just hot air, and he wants to show a squeaky clean image to all the boys and girls at the APEC meeting in Oct. Then Thailand might have a problem, cos he's going to naff off a lot of people beforehand, and then let down a load of people at the meeting itself who had Patpong very much on their itinery of "must-sees". If it's all sanitised, then they're going to go home disappointed, as i know even married, middle-class "repectable" British women who enjoyed the whole scene down there. Not my cup of tea, nowadays, but then I went there, saw it and got bored 12 years ago.

Of course, Thailand, is much, much more than Bangkok's infamous nightlife and the other things good about life here are why i choose to stay. But it's the other things that are also being attacked by this present administration, as it has such an outright majority, and it's these areas that i worry about. Unfortunately, this guy is in the driving seat for the foresseable future, so don't expect the "sabai, sabai" attitude to get any sabai-er any time soon. Think nationalism and erosion of freedoms.........................

Guys,

I always knew this forum would get to the nexus of the problem of Asian living one day. For a moment there I was worried that Joern was going to run off without washing his hands, after all that elaborate ritual, but he saved himself in the nick of time.

Firstly, I don't think the left hand is as popular for doing the biz as people are making out. Thais are pretty ambidextrous people and I'd say there are at least as many left handers around as in the West. But they are also fastiduously clean, so either they're doing spotless shits (and having no hair in that region eminates any unwanted cling-ons) or they all carry secret supplies of soap and bog paper around on their person and just don't let on. Coz the public dunnies upcountry lack both half the time. It might also explain why they don't shake hands at all, but wai instead.

Secondly, I get round the problem during journeys round the sticks by eating vast quantities of kao-nieow (hard to avoid here in Isaan), which blocks me up for days on end, with no seeming ill-effects. At the end, I just switch back to kao-jao and..... Bob's your uncle - regular as clockwork again. No worries about crappy khazis and no matter what other creepy crawlies and asstd. wildlife you eat, it's all bound in there like magic for the duration.

Agree too with posters who think that Asian squat jobs are superior to the Western ones, but I just wish they'd teach Thais (& Japs) how to use the latter ones at school, which would save the next person the disgusting sight of finding footprints all over the seat!

Am really glad someone has broached this topic at last. It's long been a plausible sounding story that Singha put formalin in their beer to preserve it, even before Chang, Leo, Beer Thai, Heineken, Carlsberg, etc. came on the market. After all, it does a bloody good job in preserving corpses down the mortuary and animal specimens in bottles, and it's well known that unscrupulous market traders use it on veggies and other perishable goods to keep them looking fresh, so why shouldn't

it be put in beer to stop it spoiling? After all, look at Singh and Chang's  shelf-life in the shops, often kept in the direct sun for months, if not years!

I gave up drinking Singh about 7 years ago after experiencing one too many killer HO, and have never liked any of the other beers on the market, bar Heineken, Carlsberg and Carlsberg, which are OK, but nothing great. I'm sure Chang is full of Formalin too, as it's got that same bitter taste as Singh and lasts forever. The only 2 decent beers ever brewed in Thailand were Amarit NB (impossible to find) and Black Tiger Beer, common around 3-4 years ago, but now like gold dust, at least here in Isaan (a few places in Nong Khai serve it, but 300kms roundtrip is a long way to go for a beer!)

In desperation a few years ago i got a family member back in UK to send a Boots beer kit out to Thailand and made 40 bottles, about half of which exploded under the stairs. The rest was not half bad and left a great smell round the house that made me "kidteung" my local pub back home for weeks. Anybody know where to buy beer kits in Thailand (business idea for someone!)

Cheers,

Plachon

Good on ya Si! You showed some faith in her, a good time for a while and gave her a job and so far, she hasn't let you down, apart from perhaps in the bedroom dept., but that's not so important as long as she's not the possesive type, & there are plenty more fish in the sea, anyway. The point is it has proved all those doubters wrong, who all along insinuated that every Thai girl is just out to rip the farang off, when this just ain't true. Just cos some people open themselves up to be ripped off, while others are doing there own "ripping off" without acknowledging it, shouldn't mean half a nation should be tarred by the same brush.

Faith in human nature has been restored!

Morning glory - "pak boong" (just to be a pedantic bastard)- the veg that grows in lots of polluted canals and ponds with arrow-shaped leaves and is a must with somtam and lots of other Thai dishes.

But more importantly and back to the original thread - Si43 have you made this chick a "decent" woman yet and is it a happy ending? We need an update methinks.

BTW, there are millions of decent girls out there and they're not hard to find, but just like anywhere else in the world, you've got to wade your way through a healthy pile of them, before finding your soul-mate. Bars are just a welcome diversion from the task! Don't give up hope Si43, even if this one didn'twork out and ignore the cynical bastards who think all Thai girls are the same. I like your attitude to life and agree she is/was worth the risk. Now, what's the story morning glory?

Why do they say that same 180 baht helmet is "peng", when they've just bought a 35,000 baht motorbike, and then only wear it, when they think there's a chance of a cop pulling them over?

Why do cops (upcountry) pull over the driver if he/she's not wearing a helmet, but ignore pillion riders (like their heads don't crack on impact)?

Why can't farangs ever figure out that some things are inexplicable and so why do they keep asking so many dumb questions? "Just you, baby, shut your mouth" D. Bowie - China Girl.

Great joke that, Thetyim. I made me "yim" anyways.

But as for Muay Thai's paranoia, I've got two things to say. Firstly, you credit your "dream girl" with not only amazing powers of scheming, but also that she just so happened to have the right breed of dog at her beck and call to scam her pet ATM. Especially, a Shitzu cross, hardly the most common dogs wandering round LoS, eh? Nah, get realistic!

Secondly, not only are farang-type dogs going to cost you an arm and a leg in vets bills and food in any case, they also mostly also have long haired coats, and just end up panting in a shady corner (bit like some farangs over here, I guess), while other dogs enjoy life. Mongrels are the way to go boy. They're smart, street-wise and hardy. Look at the odds they're up against. And that "accepted wisdom" in UK bit is bullshit. Get a healthy street dog and you won't regret it, and you can test your gf's loyalty at the same time! It's a win-win situation.

woof - woof!

Wow! 147 posts and 13,000 + hits on this thread, which has gone skidding around all over the place, but has kind of lost the plot as far as visa cost increases go. Is it time to wind it up, or is there somebody else out there wishing to add their 2 cents worth? And has the reality finally sunk in and we're all ready to accept whatever the powers that be throw at us? I suspect that as usual, we have absolutely zero choice in the matter, and by the time that visa applications do go down, that cause and effect will have been forgotten by those who dreamed up these crazy jumps. And remember, I'm not talking about the tourists who come for less than 30 days and will be unimpacted, but the long termers, who watch their bucks carefully and can decide which country they want to retire / settle down in out of a fair few. Still, maybe, Thailand can live without them, but I reckon it'll be the thin edge of the wedge now for a whole load of other price jumps. (If the govt. thinks it s OK to put up prices 4 times for farang to live here, then why don't we?). Trouble is, one never sees the stats on no. of visa applics or overseas residents living in Thailand, bar wooly figures on illegal immigrants, like an estimated 2 million Burmese (poor sods).  ???

So, new post or carry-on on the original topic?

Pschef & lopburi3,

Cheers for the advice guys and i might just go down to Penang next time for a year's visa, rather than the single O they give at VTE. The only trouble is, it's a dog of a journey down from Isaan by coach/train, while Laos is just up the road. Do you know if Khota Baru also offers the 12 month multi-entry O's, as well as Penang? It's also a nice place and same distance. Still, I'd save on 4 x $30 visas for Laos, I guess, which would ease the pain of the journey some....

Massein, old bean, sorry to inform you but those nice immigration officers must have seen you coming a mile off and will carry on squeezing your juice until you either complain to their superior (assuming he's not in on the deal, which is quite likely), or find another friend in a high place to pressure them to lay off. Your officers get 2,000 B in their mitts and a free KFC to boot, Chuwit's guys get > 80,000 B/month and some free massages. Same story, different place. TiT.

Contrary to Dr pat Pong's rather smug comments, berating people for having the audacity to complain about the institutionalised racism and bad deals as foreigners people experience in LOS, and saying the visa jumps are justified as they haven't been raised since 86 or sometime way back, I'd just like to add a few words in the moaners defence. One, is that this is part of the idea of a board like this i.e. to let off a bit of steam to a wider forum than over some beers down the bar, which is fine as long as you don't insult anyone (too much). Secondly, is that jumps of 400 % are very steep at one go and will hurt people like myself, with a Thai wife and kid to support, and make us question whether this is the place we want to live. Tourists are fickle creatures anyway, and it won't be the visa fees that keep them away, but other factors like Sars, terrorist threats and the experience / service they receive when in a country. If Thailand can still offer a good deal, the grockles will still come. But the people with family and ties here are slightly different. I could live in UK or I could live here, renting a house, spending my small income in the local economy and hopefully creating a positive impression of "farang" with the people I meet (who mostly have a fairly warped one at present). I can't meet the requirements for a one year multiple-entry O visa right now, so I'll have to continue leaving Thailand for VTE, every 3 months, to get a wee stamp in my passport that will now cost 4 times more for the same lousy service and hassle. This is not the way to keep people in your country, although admittedly the high-end earners and people with residence books already (Dr PP I suspect) are unimpacted and laughing and can afford to be smug. But don't be surprised if you see less of the rest of us around in future.

Much longer than I intended this to be.