plachon

Interesting post Ken and to tell the truth, it doesn't surprise me a great deal. I have lived in Thailand for some 7 years, but over a period of 12, and have witnessed a gradual sea-change in the attitude of ordinary Thais towards foreigners in general and farang in particular. I put it down to a wide variety of factors, but amongst the young, I'd say it is a combination of a nagging feeling that the world is not a fair place and run by the West (reinforced by globalisation), and also the point already alluded to that experiences with meeting farang (often at a distance) in their home villages has not been altogether a positive image. (We've all seen the beer swilling farang with the b/g at Songkhran and other festivals breaking all the local taboos, and it's these images that stick in the mind for most). Furthermore, the local press and media often reinforce the negative, (not helped by toxin's recent outbursts!)

One other mitigating factor, assuming you live in Udon, is it's history as a US military base and the aftertaste of the Ugly American syndrome, which can often be seen in such tangible sights, as abandoned luk kreung who only recently gained any rights and recognition in Thai society. However, I agree the trend is not good and it's up to long termers (assuming we're allowed to stay?) to create a positive image. Learning fluent Thai is the best start!

More duckin', divin' and a'jiving i'd say Tuts, judging from the past 3 pages (or is it 30?) of nonsense. Still, I'm all for keeping things light and not reaching for the mogadon's............just yet!

PS send me a PM if you get the prawn thing going, or need some advice.

I'm afraid we are talking at cross-purposes and you're just not getting the bigger picture. don't take that personally, it's probably due to millions of factors, which would take too long to even start to go into here. But at the end of the day (I really hate that phrase!), we'll just have to wait and see what transpires in Thailand and let history be the judge.

Enjoy the rest of your stay in the south and hope the poor are allowed back on the streets of Phuket again to scratch a living. Pity the homeless, poor and street dogs of BKK, as they get pushed aside for the Assembly of the Rich.

Regarding racism, you had not much experience (only two years while my wife has lived here for 16 years), also the first years were not bad only recently racism has come out in Italy.

Also England does not seem racism-free considering for instance the two years ago's Bradford clashes.

What I meant is that thais are much more friendly with "farangs" than europeans with thais, at least nothing racism-wife.

For medical system, I don't see much difference between 500 hundred bath a year and 30 bath every time go to hospital.

And we have different experiences, for instance my wife's uncle which is a poor farmer in Petchaboon province, last year had a worm under the skin on the arm (one of those that spread to heart and brain). He went to the hospital and paid 30 bath. They gave him the medicines and cured him. With 500 bath scheme surely he wouldn't have had the money to pay the health card, and would have probably died.

Of course the health system should be improved, but how do you say? Rome wasn't built in a day.

Buasaard, if you'd taken the trouble to read my posting, I very carefully said twice "my wife's experience" is that she didn't come across racism in Britain. I wasn't for a minute trying to say that racism does not exist in UK, as I am very aware that it does, and entirely condemn it. But my purpose was not defend Britain's record, just say it wasn't an issue for my wife viz your wife. So you come out here each year for 5 months and get treated like a gent. That's great for you, but I can assure you racism is very much a part of everyday life in Thailand, though it is less directed towards Westerners (by the general population), than darker skin races. I have seen many instances of racism towards south Asians, and have read about some on this board including one not so long ago by a man who took his family to Pattaya and got refused entry to a hotel pool, which I guess your wife could empathise with. Anyway, this is getting off the point. Please just read my earlier emails more carefully, as I respectfully suggested back near the start of the thread.

Similarly, for the 30 baht scheme vs. the old 500 baht family card, again you seem to be ignoring the underlying message of the bigger picture I've been attempting to put across, but zeroing in on little things,that by your own admission, you're not very familiar with.  But I'll try to briefly compare the pros and cons in a nutshell.

30 baht scheme - sounds like a good pro-poor idea, wins votes at last election. However, causes more adminstrative hassles for hospitals, who take longer to see any money back from the govt., and encourages doctors to drain to the private sector. Similarly, diverts much needed funds from the public to the private sector, to a few selected private hospitals, who's skins are saved by a murky system and further demoralises the over-worked under-payed state sector. Poor are not better served and there is a general decline in service.

500 baht scheme - a long running scheme, more decentralised and not introduced just to be a vote winner by past administration. Village headman writes list of low income families in viillage and gives to health authorities. They pay just 500 baht for all the family for all the year. If you never visited the hospital, maybe not such a good deal, but then you're blessed in other ways and are still contributing to society. But if you're sick often and need treatment, probably a better deal than lots of 30 bahts, which can soon add up for a 10 person family unit (not uncommon). And in any case, the standard of service and doctor: patient ratio were better under the old system, esp. in rural areas.

Take your pick as to which is better. One other point not mentioned is that there are always huge admin costs in changing over any given system, and the 30 baht scheme was no exception. Why can politicians never  remember the old maxim: "If it ain't broke, then don't try and fix it". Lastly, Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was it destroyed in a day either. By the time it was sacked by the Vandals, it had been on a long, slow and steady decline for several hundred years, if my history serves me right. The present decline I anticipate being considerably faster.

ChiangMaiThai The point is that you have no standing. And that  point galls you.

I can appreciate that. But you know what? Who cares?

You would rather whine and complain rather than get motivated and do something. Like most people have to.

Then you feel this need to take shots, because of your fears and insecurities rather than seek solutions. You certainly did to me.

You're called on it and so now you punt with more idealism.

That's not going to work and the sooner you get off your butt and show what you're REALLY willing to do to secure that place in life, the more enlightened you may find yourself to be.

Well higher powers are now making the decision for you now. The freedom you thought you could have, doing a minimal amount of effort, isn't there after all and it hurts. And you're angry and afraid.

When the going get's tough the tough get going. Stop snivelling and get going.

If you don't think you can learn something from people who produce, and who work #### hard to do so AND try to make suggestions to help based on experince, then don't expect kindness when you very ignorantly insult people. It's can be a hard life. Better get a helmet is the best case reply you'll get after that..

I wish y'all the best, but really, nobody cares if you don't.

Mr Vietnam  

You are the most arrogant, conceited, self-satisfied jerk, I've ever had the fortune not to meet. No wonder your country is in the mess it's in, deluding itself that everyone loves it really, and really is only jealous of it's money and success (both monumental illusions, as is being proved in Iraq and elsewere around the world). It's called the Tigger syndrome.  It's you who are afraid and insecure pal.

MRENTOUL logic is not part of the equation in the debate here. In the past we have agreed to disagree, but I am with you here. Not one poster ever talked of the possibility of any happening to him or his family that might need a little nest egg to carry them through. Maybe the self sustaining  grower can do his own quad bypass.

You guys are just unblievable. It's got everything to do with logic, plus what is reasonable, fair and just. It's just a pity some people are too myopic to see that, and deign to dictate to others what they think is a "proper" amount to live on in Thailand. Mr'toul and others thinks 40,000 is fair and anyone on less than that is "dregs" (a semi-retracted statement), others including myself (who can quite easily support my family on less than half that amount), disagree. My wife would be the first to say "get me out of here" if she thought so. But is this really only about money and income? To the Thai government probably that's what it mainly comes down to, but there is another element, not yet considered.

The govt. here is vast top heavy machine that is going through the process of "modernisation". Lot's of offices are computerising and proceedures are supposedly being "streamlined". This raises the spectre than suddenly all those paper pushers are going to be without a job and shunted into the Min. of Inactive Affairs. \For some that might mean a nice early retirement package, for other younger ones it might be scary. So, what does one do? Simple, increase the regulations and rules and create more work for the boys, albeit more computerised. Everyone's a winner, baby! Think there's anything in it?

By the way Doc, he had the quad bypass done already - in Thailand (yes, helping the Thai economy don't forget!) and now is doing just fine. Right here in Thailand and doesn't want to move anywhere else.

Hey! I've got an ancient IBM Thinkpad and it looks like the hard disk has given up the ghost. Not in the market for anew laptop (yet!) and like this old behemoth, so anyone got an idea of where I might be able to locate such a thing?

For what it's worth, it's got a Model No. DTCA - 24090 and has a 4090 MB capability. Cheers for suggestions of shops, outlets which might have one!

n peace with our family, and they say to us go away ...

On the contrary, my wife in Europe (I'm italian) is not always properly treated. In public offices, she's always looked down. She has italian citizenship, but everybody assumes that she is foreigner (she can't change her face fortunately) and ask with bad manners the residence permit.

A friend of her were refused ID card, because they wanted the residence permit (also her friend has italian citizenship), and no matter she insisted, they didn't believe her.

When my wife sits on a bus, she's always required to leave the seat for older people. Ok this is normal, but not when there are on the same bus younger people than her(she is over 40).And this happen often.

One time, awaiting the bus she was approached by a woman who spat on the pavement in front of her, telling her to "go back home".

Did you say about regulations? Foreigners living in Italy have now a residence permit connected with the job, if they lose their job they have to leave the country.In addition , when they require the extension (every two years now but until two-three years ago every year)they cannot leave Italy for at least 6 months because this is the time needed to deliver the new permit.

To stay in Italy every foreigner needs a place where to stay and and an income. Does any country allow foreigner to stay without an income and a place where to stay?It doesn't seem to me that Thailand asks more.

Right, I'll indulge you B'sard. You've neatly described that Italy seems to be a very racist place in yours and your wife's experience. I've said my wife and myself's experience in Britain, is that it is not so, and what's more she has been given rights and benefits very quickly after arriving. What's more, BOTH our wives have been given residence status in the respective countries, without major hassle, expense and heartache in our case. But the same is not true for me coming to Thailand and I can neither afford nor envisage being given residence status in the expensive lottery here. So, your assertion, about Thailand not seeming to "ask more" in reciprocation for residence does not sem to hold water, unless you can enlighten us?

As for the other point about the 30 baht scheme, again i'll have to reiterate some things already said. It's neither popular with doctors, nor patients who have not seen any improvement in service since it was implemented, and those i know prefered the old schem under Chuan. But the fact, that doctors are bailing out in their droves, especially in the rural areas where the patient:doctor ratio is appalling anyway, is the best testament to it's failure. The private system benefits, because certain private hospitals have been selected under the scheme to offer "service" to the public. It's an open secret that they treat the ordinary 30 baht punters with contempt in their rich persons hospital, give them shoddy treatment, then charge the govt. a mint (=loadsamoney) for the second class treatment they've given. Unfortunately, my friend's wife could have got the same treatment (or lack of it) for 30 baht, had they known where to go, but instead he was skinned for 8,000 baht. But such is the life of the poor in LOS.

Twix,

If I was you and believe it's your baby, i'd get over to Thailand, give her the support and help she needs up to birth, make sure everything's OK, then decide between the two of you if you want to go back to your home country and raise the kid there. If not and you're hooked on your job and life back there and moving here's not an option, then your time here will have been well spent in learning her circumstances and can pay an appropriate maintenance. But don't leave her holding the baby, what ever you do!

PS, with your name you want to hope it's not twins!

The fact that doctors do not like is not a guarantee, infact in my opinion (I might be wrong), most of them would prefer a 100pct private health system to earn more money.

With regards to my previous message, I wrote a lot of Italy because I just wanted to show that farangs are not treated worse than how thais are treated abroad.

Finally , I don't understand why you are so hard with me. It doesn't seem to me, I offended or was hard to someone.

If I did, I apologize it was not my intention, maybe my english is not so good to express my intentions correctly.

I'm not being "hard" with you, I'm just saying check your facts before spouting off. Toxin is the architect of nearly all the new plans coming thru' these past 2 years, which is 'cos he's in a position of almost absolute power - even your Berlusconi would be jealous of hjis alter-ego! But back to the health care system - of course, doctors would prefera 100 % private one, if their only motivation is to make money. but you seem to be suggesting that a health care sytem is set up only for the benefit of the medical profession, not the general public! As the majority of the general public in Thailand are not well off and can't afford a private health care system, then for every doctor that leaves the public system it is a loss to the poor majority, who have to put up with long queues and indifferent service and treatment as it is. There are some good state hospitals in Thailand, but for the majority up-country Thais, they never get to see them. Lot's die first - heard a heart-breaking story from one ordinary poor Thai a few days ago, who's 37 year old wife couldn't get treatment in the state hospital after her appendix burst and ended up dying in a private hospital after receiving next to no treatment. She spent one night there and for this, her husband was charged 8,000 baht. He was too grief stricken to argue, even though it was a rip-off.

And for the record, my wife spent 2 years in Britain, where she never experienced any overt racism, was able to work without problems, was given residency within months, never had to leave the country on a visa run and enjoyed full benefits under the NHS. I could go on, but perhaps you start to get the picture.

What I am saying is this would prevent poorer foreigners from staying, and re enforced the Thai view that they only want rich foreigners. This is really ugly, and I feel sorry for the hardship it would create between families.

What I don't understand is what is the motivation for making these changes? What is the underlying reason?

I think you know the underlying reason already MaiChai. It's been stated enough by plenty of folks these past few weeks.

But it's not only families that may be forced to upsticks as a result of these changes, if and when implemented. I know an elderly American gentlemen, living in the Isaan hinterland for the past 9 years, who practices a form of self-sufficiency called "permaculture". Totally peacefully, he consumes little, grows most of what he eats and practices the King's philosophy 100 %. The PM would hate this, as he's not adding much to  the cash economy and is not bringing in large amounts of loot, even though he's soaking up lots of other people's CO2 with all the trees he's planted. Thing is, will he be allowed to stay under the new criteria? He has a retirement visa, so satisfies the present immigration rules, but I fear he may be ruled out if the crossbar changes height. Just one more potential example of an "undesirable" in the new order.

Forget the condo, I have a bar to sell  

Much better investment  :laugh:

Not pulling up anchor already i hope 'fly? Still a bit fo breathing space to go, i would have thought? Or are just getting business in order first? Looks like 'toul has really copped out on the other thread, huh?

Unfortunately, Buasaard, you're way off with this one. The 30 baht scheme was one of Toxin's election promises if he got in. He did and he introduced hencewith. The old scheme was a 500 baht family "health card", that gave everyone on that low income person's house registration the right to "free" medical treatment at their local hospital. So Toxin, salesman that he is, tears that one up and says now "raksa took rok, 30 baht". Great, only trouble is it's cost a fortune to implement, has taken money out of the public health system and plonked it into the private one (as some private hospitals also participate) and the service has got worse, not better. however, the best test is the fact that doctor's themselves don't like it - to bureaucratic and has made work more dificult for them, which is reflected in the fact that doctors are leaving the public system in droves. (reported recently in the press) TResult is, people go to the private system more, costing them more money than before. i.e. poor get screwed, as I said in my posting. This is not speculation, I'm seeing it in practice with my wife's family and other aquaintances. You're OK, as I'm sure you use the private health system, which to you as a foreigner seems cheap. To the poor majority of thailand, it's crippling, sometiimes literally. Please, stick to talking about Italy and things you have some knowledge of.

Rinrada, my Khun Wifey, is also pretty apolitical, but saw through Toxin long ago and likens him to some of the less savoury dictators of the past. So do many well-known Thai social critics, like Thirayuth Boonmi who headed the students movment in 1973, so it's not only the FFF sex tourists who're worried.

moodaeng is obviously a pseudonym for another regular poster on this forum, who for some obscure reason, wishes not to associate himself or herself, with their former identity. I have a shrewd idea who, but will keep it to myself.

Yes and no, MD2, you've got it right and wrong about Thailand and expats reasons for wanting to stay/live here. You can't generalise or typify - there as diverse as any multi-national population would be. But, I can assure you, the incumbent PM is as different a character as has ever lorded it over this country, as chalk is from cheese, and he's picking on those least able to defend themselves in his vision of "development". this includes low-income foreigners, but also includes the majority poor of Thailand, who have been fooled into thinking he's supporting their interests (30 baht scheme, debt holiday for farmers, 1 million baht per village project, etc), when he is actually condemning them to perpetual poverty. The Assembly of the Poor, (a small minority of Thailand's disenfranchised), have seen clearly through Toxin's empty words and promises and now find he's a hungry wolf in sheep's clothing. It will take a bit longer for the majority to find out the same ultimate truth, and then...........who knows what will happen?

christ! you're a bit prompt aren't you Chonabot? Or maybe you should have mentioned that the meeting was 300 kms away across country and you're going by bus............

PS. most Isaan males I know are not averse to a bit of dogmeat, especially of the older generation, as long as they're not the ones to catch, kill and prepare it. But when at some one else's house and the lao kao is flowing freely, i've come across it on several occasions, far from SK Province.

Pity it's stuttered to a halt again, just when it was starting to get interesting. Guess we're all agreed then: There's  nothing to worry about, things are going swimmingly with the Thai economy and there's absolutely no chance of an economic crash sullying the pristine waters we're sailing on, coz Captain Tox is in control of this Ship of...............

But stop throwing your toys about, ummmm, lads!

This thread has zig-zagged all over the place and people's replies have reflected (not surprisingly), their own individual doubts and fears as to how they will be affected. however, make no mistake that many people will be affected when these new regulations are implemented (and I believe the source is high enough to suggest they will), that making advance preparation and contingency plans is prudent, to say the least. If that means postponing buying that house or bringing over a pile of capital 'til after next year, then I would say that could be wise. And if this impacts measurably on the property market in certain popular areas, then that would be a good signal to at least local authorities, that overseas potential reseidents do make a difference. however, for the scattered and statistically insignificant spouses of Thais up-country are affected and gradually pull-out as a result, then unfortunately, we're not numerous enough to make a big enough difference to more than a few immediately around us. It's just a sad, economic fact of life, that the racist and elitist law-makers can afford to ignore us. But Pattaya, Chiang Mai Phuket, and a few other localities are  something different and it is these areas that will be the litmus test of future events.

So, you you're coming round to ducks eventually are you Tutsi. don't say you haven't been warned!

I It seems very little thought has gone into them, and the people drafting them have little experience of the real world (eg outside Thailand).]

The scary thing is MaiChai, is they have. (foreign educated and frequent foreign trips for all cabinet members) But it's not your and I's "real world", where money is tight and has to be carefully budgeted. They move in a rarified world of VIP lounges, first class travel, purchasing luxury goods from cosmopolitan shops around the globe -- and mostly at some one else's expense, either the tax payer or their corporate sponsors (imagine going to look at buying those second hand Swiss tanks or German subs). They're divorced from reality and it shows up in all the hare-brained policy changes cropping up with the present PM, who has the power and mandate to push them through. Ideas only get rammed down from the top, they rarely get fed up from below.

Mrs F,

The north and south have beautiful scenery, so virtually any province could be attractive. Isaan is not so hot for scenery, but has a certain charm all of its own. Central Thailand is one big polluted dump, to be avoided at all costs. BKK, though is one big party zone, so it does have its draws.

Walking, though, is considered a strange activity, strictly for eccentrics only, so be prepared to be branded, unless you can locate yourself right next to a beach, or a national park. Even then, be prepared for hordes of pick-up driving louts taking the party to the countryside every w/end. Then it's time to head for the city..............it's all totally subjective, swings and roundabouts in other words.

In conclusion: Come out, travel widely, and settle where your spirit takes you. Enjoy it.