brucec64

Interesting that the subject line uses the words "Prayuth" and "Voted" in the same sentence. Recent events have shown the two words to be contradictions.

In any case, what difference does it make who the PM is? Mere window dressing, or a veneer of decency. The dodgy new constitution ensures that the NCPO (Prayuth) get the final say no matter what.

'dodgy'?

May I remind you that the interim constitution is the law of the land, with H.M. the King graciously pleased to proclaim it?

I think dodgy sums it up correctly.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/24/thailand-interim-constitution-provides-sweeping-powers

According to the Human Rights Watch, there are many areas of concern with the new constitution. While "transparency" is the buzzword of the new regime, the reality is somewhat different:

“Instead of paving the way for a return to democratic, civilian rule, the Thai junta has granted itself unchecked authority to do almost anything it wants, including committing rights abuses with impunity.”

and concludes with:

“The NCPO’s claims that the interim constitution is essential for restoring electoral democracy and civilian rule in Thailand are a façade for continuing control by the junta,” Adams said. “By tightening their control, the generals are backtracking on their repeated promises to restore democracy in Thailand. This is a charter for dictatorship.”

Recommend a military dictatorship? Where did I do that?

Rube --it's a wind up, I went on a couple of threads to take the strain while you were busy and by god didn't I get them buzzing, you missed nothing, the same rhetoric. without you giving them fodder most would run out of customers.

Hope you typing fingers have rested and charged up for the next batch.

Oh dear. Your advanced years must be getting to your memory. Read some recent history, and let me know what kind of record the army has when in power here. Once you've done that, read some Plato and learn for yourself why a tyranny is more degraded system of government than a democracy.

You've been ridiculed by all and sundry in this thread for basing your arguments on mere falsehoods and refusing to answer pertinent questions that refute your position. You seem to slavishly follow one side, asking no questions of it, and accepting a censored version of the news as the truth, whereas a free press caused you to vilify the other side in the first place.

Now you are clutching at what appears to be your only friend here for support - someone who has openly renounced the free society that allowed him to survive a great tyranny perpetrated against his mother land not long before he was born. The defeat of this tyranny by those who value freedom allowed his parents to survive, and for him to be born, and to travel abroad and express this views here freely, albeit paradoxically in support of a political system that would have prevented him from being born in the first place.

The beauty of democracy is that it allows us to have conversations like this. Think how boring it will be when we are prohibited from doing so.

All of 33 years you say you've been here, and yet you think the army is clean? I don't believe you are who you say you are.

What a flaming saga, cut out the personal bits, my age is not your business.

Because of this my reply is short and sweet---- Past army rule I do not give a fig about.

Your agenda I do not give a fig about.

Your bad manners I give a fig about.

Your stupid comment about one and only friend for support JOKE. look how many support you and your rhetoric, and look how many are quite calm about how Thailand is at this minute. You have a strange % view of who is who.

in a few months we here on TVF are just being hit by pro Thaksin -anti army rhetoric, and it is spoiling the fun on this forum. You don't care you along with the few are relentless. Soon you will be on the forum alone with no one to argue with. So many are not here, the good ones that very rarely touched political topics are drifting away, an opinion is fine, but attacking people that are not being bothered by the army is crazy.

Do not bother any more, you can hog it with your agenda I'm out of here sick to hell with your clan.

I hold the view now that most persons in Thailand are comfortable with things now more than the last 3 years speaks volumes, if you think different you are a lost soul.

I think the military intends to preclude any further possible need of a coup, forever. I think the military means for this coup to be the last coup. The current military rulers and their "reform" councils are pursuing their unique and exclusive Thai ideology, which is the trilogy of Nation, Religion, King. A unique cultural ideology is nothing new in this region of the world, or anywhere for that matter.

http://www.nationreligionking.com/military/royalthaimarines/

The new Thai order that will emerge will present some kind of democracy, and almost any kind of democracy will appear to be legitimate as long as people can vote. This is what the OP writes about. While the OP says the purposeful result will, in the OP's opinion, be a glass that is half empty, I say in my own opinion the glass will be completely empty and here's why.

It's my opinion the current regime is in the process of producing a constitution that allows the easy first impression of a multi-party democracy, to include what will appear to be competitive elections. The elections will allow participation by one or more neutered but not puppet opposition parties. The reformers will then pronounce they have produced a Western style democracy and most casual observers will accept that pronouncement.

The new constitution will certainly not produce a totalitarian government nor will it produce an authoritarian one. It will not produce a one party state nor will it necessarily produce leaders from the military or the police, although having the latter appears to be inherent to Thai culture. All the same, the new constitution will appeal to enough of a broad and diverse electoral base (central and southern Thailand and some in the northern swath) to support claims it will be democratic.

I am certain the embryonic democracy being created would include the overarching fraternalism that the Thai trilogy commands. So the new constitution will produce a political and governing framework to implement the unique Thai social and cultural policy of solidarity and transcendentalism, a transcendental solidarity that goes beyond individual or temporary human concerns or interests, and which are beyond discussion.

In short, the new constitution will promote a new involuntary fraternity which is based on a constitution that will enforce an artificial social cohesion. It will have democratic features and characteristics but it will be democratic in name only. The new pseudo democracy will use camouflage rather than coups to present itself as legitimate.

The mere process of voting establishes the basis for change. Just look how Thailand started to move to policy based manifestos instead of charismatic leadership of old.

It certainly caught the democrats out, who largely had no policies or were simply tweaking PTP policies.

Once that is established, the problem starts that essentially the army and the establishment want to have the right of veto over any policy. For all of you who believe that the rice policy has bankrupted the country, relax, it has done nothing of the sort.

In comparison with disastrous political policies, the rice mess doesn't even figure in the top 20 on a value or damage basis. And yet the media had everyone believe that the sky was falling.

The big change will come when the people are able to listen to the candidates and analyse what they say. That will take about another 100 years because that doesn't even go on in the west. I mean honestly, the worlds biggest economy has been cutting taxes for business and the rich for the last 30 years and the wonder why they have an enormous defifict.

So expect the cycles of coup and election to continue.

I agree with the statement about the rice subsidy being blown out of proportion. It accounted for about only 7 percent of total government spending on a yearly basis and did not even come close to bankrupting the country. The energy subsidy, which has been around long before thaksin, accounts for at least what the rice subsidy costs, but is never an issue because it has been shown to benefit the rich much more than the poor.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/The-long-term-effects-of-energy-subsidies-lessons--30196787.html

How refreshing.

 

The qualifications required for the previous regime for the majority of ministers was being a relation of thaksin or at least having a strong connection to him. 

 

This alone highlights a more democratic approach by the Junta and shows they certainly do not hold the population in contempt by putting unqualified yet "connected" people in to positions of power. 

From today's Nation: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Doubts-over-junta-panels-30240985.html

"Critics have pointed to the fact that advisers to the ruling National Council for Peace and Order (NCPO) were appointed to all 11 selection committees. Its advisers top the list of each seven-member committee and thus are poised to lead each panel. Critics see this as designed to allow the junta to influence the NRC's final line-up."

Also

"Thammasat University political scientist Attasit Pankaew said there were no clear selection criteria for NRC members and there could be doubts about the transparency of the process."

"Khon Thai Party leader Utain Shartpinyo agreed, saying there were no clear selection criteria, not just for the NRC but also for the National Legislative Assembly.

"No one can explain why there are three members of the Wongsuwan family in the NLA. There needs to be clear explanation for each member's appointment," he said"

Looks like we are back to cronyism and nepotism.

Not so refreshing. The more things change...

Not that it really matters in this discussion, but of course I'm just reminding him.

So, till now it seems the interim constitution doesn't bar Gen. Prayuth from being appointed PM. That has nothing to do with how one looks upon such appointment, nor does it have anything to do with some thinking the interim constitution to be 'of lesser worth'.

It seems that there is a fundamental conflict of interest.

The premise behind the reform process is that all involved in creating the new constitution are not allowed to be involved in downstream politics for a period of time to avoid allegations of conflict of interest and self-serving. It seems that this philosophy should have been integrated into the interim constitution process - those involved in the creation of the interim constitution should be barred from participating downstream to avoid allegations of conflict of interest and self-serving.

The previous government was vilified for acts that were illegal, but also to a great extent for acts that were not illegal but ethically dubious. One would hope to see an ethical approach as well as a legal approach during the reform process. To simply say it is legal because the recently created law makes it legal does not necessarily make it right.

Considering that he basically wrote the constituion I can't imagine it will put up any roadblocks!

 

Yes, there was some fraud related to this program

 

 

Understatement of the Year nominee

"some" = "the scheme caused 500 Billion Baht  (US$15.5 Billion) in damage to the country"

http://www.chiangraitimes.com/thai-anti-corruption-agency-finds-yingluck-guilty-in-rice-pledging-scheme.html

 

 

that's quite a lot for "some"

 

The error in the statement is that the 500 billion baht was "damage" to the country. This was a subsidy program and the funds were not lost, they were distributed to the farmers. A subsidy, by defintion, is not a profit making measure. The junta even claimed that distributing the remaining 90 billion baht would give a 0.2% boost to the economy:

"Air Chief Marshal Prajin Juntong, who is overseeing economic matters for the junta, told reporters after meeting top civil servants that the rice payments could add 0.2 percentage point to economic growth this year.

He said that would be on top of forecast 2 percent growth. That is the middle of the range forecast by the NESDB planning agency, which compiles Thailand's GDP figures."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/26/thailand-politics-economy-idUSL3N0OC24Z20140526

Therefore, by that logic, if 90 billion added 0.2% to the economy, then 500 billion added over 1% of growth to the economic growth. This program was no different than any deficit financing program used by most countries in the world to stimulate economic growth.

Your defense of the PTP being more democratic by comparing it to a Junta who never purported to be democratic inadvertently highlights that the PTP are not democratic.

Thank you for assisting my argument.

BTW the Separation of power with checks and balances is laughable. NACC budget reduced by 60% a month after the PTP promised to tackle corruption. The UDD and PTP urging yingluck to ignore the courts and NACC rulings.

The NACC is still there. The courts are still there. The checks and balances have not changed. In fact if anything they have strengthened as the Junta have empowered the NACC to scrutinize all projects which the PTP would not allow. In fact the Junta have shown that they will in no way interfere in the checks and balances at all and proved that by allowing yingluck to travel even in light of recent "checks and balances" guilty verdicts in rice cases against her. The PTP respect the checks and balances so much yingluck decided to attack the checks and balances by questioning the NACC's practices three days before the guilty women left for her unelected, accused mass murderer, accused terrorist convicted criminal brothers birthday. What quint words to describe law abiding upstanding (yes yes elected) citizens.

I could continue but I think everyone gets the point.

Funny that a Junta that never purported to be democratic can be more democratic that a government that only spout democracy (well 1 principle anyway)

<EDIT> Freedom of speech - haha. Might want to ask Akeyuth about that? Yes, yes, it was the driver!!!!! In fact the "missing and murdered" outspoken opponents of thaksin under his rule is more than under the current Junta which is currently zero! There were a lot of angry robbing drivers under the thaksin regime heay!!!

"The NACC is still there. The courts are still there."

The following article discusses a fast track project that was pushed through.

http://en.khaosod.co.th/detail.php?newsid=1405581604&section=11

Therefore, the NCPO stated, it is necessary to suspend a number of laws and legal requirements to allow Mahidol University to push forward with the project.

The laws suspended are the 1992 Building Safety Control Act, the 2013 Bangkok City Planning Ministerial Regulation, the 1991 ban on certain types of construction in the area west of Chao Praya River imposed by the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA), and the 2001 BMA Ordinance on Building Restriction.

The NCPO did not explain why the project pursued by Mahidol University was fast-tracked.

Since staging the coup against the elected government on 22 May, the NCPO has assumed full authority of the country's administration, virtually without any check on its power, and has outlawed any criticism of its missions.

Checks and balances seem to have been overridden, and transparency is zero.

However, look like cronyism and patronage are alive and well:

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/Eight-medial-schools-deals-call-on-govt-to-resign-30224752.html

"The deans of eight medical schools are calling on the caretaker government to step down and pave way for the establishment of the "provisional government". Dr Udom Kachintorn, dean of the Mahidol University (MU) Faculty of Medicine Siriraj Hospital..."

Hi,

Is this bike still for sale?

thanks,

Bruce

I think the rules are that you can stay 90 days in a 180 day period. If you leave for 30 days at a time and stay 30 days you should be fine.

Had to renew my visa earlier this time, I used ThaiVisaRun company again on Sunday for a border run, no problem. Ask them about the new rules, they were all laughing and booked me a seat for my next run.

now I know why they were all laughing.

I don't think there will be much different at the border until mid to end of december. Immigration stated that the rule change was not retroactive so no one will be hitting the 90 day limit until end of december. Visa run people may not be laughing so much then.