thailandchilli

Cheers for clarifying a few things. Obviously a stressful time.

First priority, get your daughter out of there. She's no.1 . In your shoes I can't think of anything that could be more important than my daughter. Tell work you have an urgent family issue to deal with. Ask her if she'd like to stay with daddy and when she says yes which from what you've said will be a cert, pick her up the first opportunity you get. Night time when your ex goes out is likely a good bet.

After that, you're lucky that you're in the UK. Compared to Thailand there are many more support options open to you and places you can turn. That includes child protection agencies, helplines, teachers, police, social services etc. Thai society offers nowhere near the same level of support. All of these would be decent options to turn to for help. Pick one to start with and contact or go to them for help as you do need help, and each of these supports will be trained in how to deal with suspected abuse cases.

Frankly the nationality and culture issues are not the main issue here, though they may add some additional considerations. FWIW I asked my Thai wife and she said no way in your case would she leave her daughter with two teenage boys who are not her biological family, as there could be all sorts of issues, jealousy etc, particularly with what you described She says it is common place in Thailand and says it would be more common than UK. Not the norm of course, but such she wouldn't take the risk. You only need to read Thai news to see what can go on - her words. In reality it can happen in any country. Thailand as I mentioned though doesn't have the same level of support to deal with it, nor the same level of action to deal with it, prevent or deter it. Hence while in the UK it could be dealt with by professionals with repercussions, in Thailand there are few professionals to support and lax law enforcement, less education about such topics etc. No coincidence Thailand unfortunately does attract paedos more than developed countries.

All those are asides though:

Get your daughter out of there and turn to someone in the UK for professional support. Myself I'd call someone like Childline, NSPCC etc first, for guidance as what to do next, rather than jumping to more formal solutions, like police, and then help and talk through whats the best course of action.

Cheers

Fletch

Good advice, urgency here is the key to save her from any further abuse IF it is happening, but you must assume currently that it is. Work is important to you but your daughter currently needs your help to keep her safe, this is the priority.

The child welfare agencies mentioned can offer immediate advice, call them. EDT (emergency duty team) of the Social services child protection are also available 24/7.

As mentioned in my last post expect a full investigation, this is why you need to take care of your daughter because the welfare agencies will NOT allow her to be in the same house alone with those boys until an investigation has been completed. If they feel she is not safe they will take action themselves and put her in temporary foster care.

Address this now, a 6 year old girl, your daughter could be in serious danger

The bottom line here is a responsible adult should be looking after your daughter at all times.

You need to fix that immediately.

i have spoken to the 2 twin boys, they have been left under no illusions of what the consequences will be, though i worry if this would stop anything happening. my wife has the mai pen rai attitude when i talk to her about my concerns, she brushes it off. i allways just wonder my my daughter hates staying with them , its wrong. my ex wife needs to go to work to support the kids and i allways now take my daughter but i will need to gom away to work soon.

when my wifes friend told me that abuse is rife amoungst thai teenagers and especially when its with their ( not full sister ) this scared the sh*t out of me. now im more paranoid as ever which is probably a good thing so i allways ask my daughter everyday if she is ok etc and look out for any signs though sometimes she does seem to be withdrawn.

there has been a good few times ive went round to check on my daughter when my wife has went to work and the last time was 8pm at night , i asked one boy where is his young sister , he shrugged his shoulders and said he didnt know where she was, i told him it was dark outside and never leave her outside alone ( dumb stupid little ********** ) its as if they just dont care . lucky my wifes friend a neighbour had her with her at her home. i told my ex wife about her sons letting my kid out at that time and her reply was " yes i yak him because he stupid ) thats not a good enough excuse, though i suspect she didnt really shout too much at them .

wish i had of left them back in thailand years ago, i fought through 3 high court cases against the border agency to let them join their mum in uk but really ive regretted it ever since. seems they do not give a sh*t about much. one was suspended last week for fighting in school. the other has been in constant trouble for being disrespectfull to teachers and telling one teacher to f** k off. all this after the money and heart ache it cost me to get them here.

im living on my nerves everytime my wife has to work.

Please stop wasting any further time on this forum. Your daughter is your priority and at 6 years old it already sounds to me that she may well have lost her innocence due to the 2 older boys. This is heartbreaking and the damage has already been done if correct. Please immediately remove any further risk to her. A 6 year old should be feeling safe and secure not scared and abused. This forum may have helped you decide to act, I hope so but act you must. Call your local Social Services Child Protection services immediately, they have a 24 hour number in the UK.

Expect a full investigation to be carried out by them and quite rightly so. To avoid more unnecessary risks and separation issues for your child be prepared to take time off work to look after her. This is very serious, please act now. Yes I am qualified in this and why I am giving you advice, please take it.

Boomerangutang mentioned: "Thai investigators (like all Thais, are deeply immersed in superstitious beliefs) have, by all indications, been intent on not looking for evidence (no bloody clothes, no phone data, etc) and/or trashing any evidence which implicates people they're trying to shield."

You just posit the bold part as the true.

Are you asserting the above is not true?

Here are some other things that, by all indications, the RTP haven't looked at or looked at and tossed in the waste can because it implicated the people they're trying to shield:

>>> CCTV from the two beach bars

>>> other CCTV near crime scene

>>> altercations at the bars on that night

>>> Sean's knowledge of or involvement with the crime

>>> The couple (farang man, Asian woman) near the crime, just before and after it happened

>>> People familiar with Nomsod who could shed light on his whereabouts that night, and the next day

>>> Speedboat operators (saying they were 'too drugged to talk,' is a soggy excuse for not questioning them thoroughly)

>>> searching Mon's room, and where he does laundry

>>> body searching all 'persons of interest' as soon as possible after the crime

The list could go on and on Boomer but here's a few more:

Investigate exactly what was the evidence that some Thai's had apparently tried to destroy and the misinformation they had given to hide the real killers

Investigate the very serious allegations made by the taxi driver on KT that he was beaten for not agreeing to be a witness and was also offered 700K

Explain why when the RTP had the opportunity to independently verify the DNA samples when the UK police were here they chose not to do so? The eyes of scrutiny would have been put at ease.

Bow to the pressure of their own Human Rights advocates and also international governments and NGO's why the RTP has not independently investigated the serious allegations of the suspects mistreatment and alleged torture.

The above are all perfectly able to be carried out even now, but we all know its not going to happen

There have been about 80 or 90 people who have commented on the murder threads over the last 6 months. There are 4 people who are 100% sure the Burmese are the killers and are prepared to listen to no one who disagree with them.

10 or 20 who don't have a view as to guilty or not.

50 or 60 who believe the police have the wrong people.

For me 3 of the 4 are desperate for the Burmese to be found guilty. One even would refuse to believe they didn't do it if found not guilty.

I do wonder why they need the Burmese to be found guilty. They don't just want them found guilty they need them to be found guilty.

Please tell us all, exactly which "4 people who are 100% sure..." are.

In fact, while you are at it, please include a list of each group, including those that are positive the Burmese are involved in some way.

You did demonstrate the group narcissism so aptly pointed out above.

I think most people have seen your taunts and that of AleG as a sign of desperation. When you struggle to win a debate on the battlefield you resort to labeling, diversion, even swearing. But don't worry when we see that the rest of us know you've obviously lost the argument and have nothing else to use other than CT. B.S. or now the new one which by the way could easily be mirrored to you - Narcissism

There have been about 80 or 90 people who have commented on the murder threads over the last 6 months. There are 4 people who are 100% sure the Burmese are the killers and are prepared to listen to no one who disagree with them.

10 or 20 who don't have a view as to guilty or not.

50 or 60 who believe the police have the wrong people.

For me 3 of the 4 are desperate for the Burmese to be found guilty. One even would refuse to believe they didn't do it if found not guilty.

I do wonder why they need the Burmese to be found guilty. They don't just want them found guilty they need them to be found guilty.

Thats a good question but the answer eludes me as to why some people will be little any remark, statement or report that could be considered as endorsing the defense of the B2. They appear to be like hawks waiting for the moment to jump in if they see any post that contains a snippet that they can discredit. One even has an obsession with bestowing on us Freudian based theories and physicological inadequacies particularly within group dynamic situations to try to explain why we are all apparently acting as we do. Quite astounding really.

Just found a fitting quote for those of us who feel injustice is lurking in this case:

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”
― Desmond Tutu

A non-verifiable claim on an unofficial social media page.

Are there now official and unofficial media pages? The social media mule is on the ground - are you still beating it?

Social media, Thai-Visa included, is a means where all sorts of people can discuss things. Some are pure opinions, some are facts, some is nonsense, some is ranting, some are tidbits put forth by experts in the field being discussed. In other words, all sorts of things.

If your 13 yr old daughter went missing some dark and stormy night, there might be a clue on social media to her whereabouts. Social media has potentially millions of people with eyes and ears and minds. The local police station might have four people.

No one is saying social media has all the answers or that everything posted on social media is gospel. Instead, some of what's posted on the media may have credence. Re; to the KT crime, there have been some interesting postings on SM which may prove to be true. If they incriminate the B2, so be it. If they incriminate Nomsod or Mon, or any of their associates, so be it. I'm open minded and sincerely want the real culprits tried. If found guilty (in fair court proceedings), I want to see the full weight of punishment put upon them. If that happens to the B2, so be it.

Its the RTP that needs to learn something from this, not social media. Blaming social media when you are at fault because of uprofessional police statements is a little primitive. A full working Social Media Policy guide should be created for the RTP to avoid such a shambolic investigation and limit statements to just one central person.

Social Media, Police Culture and the Koh Tao Murders

http://www.cgmoore.com/blog/view.asp?id=792

In developed countries social media is harnessed as a positive tool not something to be scared about. Not so in Thailand apparently

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2011/03/30/social-networking-tools-help-missing-children/

Oh wait, so the RTP does harness social media when it suits them: Tourist Thief Struck in Phuket, Nabbed by Social Media in Songkhla cant link to this one but its in Phuketwan dated 20th March 2015

My non-long-winded point of view: If this thing is a hoax in that those at the top of the Prosecution chain if not top-to-bottom know for a fact that the 2 accused are in no way complicit in the crimes for which they are charged, then I don't think those down in Samui even with direction from Bangkok are good enough to pull that one off given the international attention this trial will receive.

Your statement would have some credence if it didn't use superlatives like "....know for a fact that..." "...are in no way complicit..."

When I was in jr. High school, there were gals who had a world view something like this: Everything, certainly every boy, was either 'super dreamy' or 'yuksville.' In other words, everything was either excellent or horrible - no middle ground. We don't need to stoop to that level. It's Sunday for Kryssache.

For example, when I discount what the RTP have done in this investigation, I don't assert everything they've done is off-base and unprofessional, .....only some things.

Did you make it past jr. High school? Either the B2 are complicit in these crimes or they are not. I don't see that there is any shade-of-grey in that matter.

It's not that simple. While I don't think the B2 committed murder, I am positive (by their conflicting 'whereabouts' statements) that they know or are aware of what might have happened that night. As do Mon and Nomsod (for their suspicious behaviour) - and I don't think they are murderers, either.

It was reported (and hushed up) that a 'biker gang' assaulted and robbed two female tourists on that very beach, the previous night. Is that a coincidence, or could that same gang have been involved in these crimes as well?

I see plenty of shades of grey in most aspects of this investigation, often or not with conflicting information that has been bandied around ad nauseum. The main culprits being the RTP media reports.

Good post stephenterry. I'm currently in the same camp as you unless we see further evidence either way materialize which I now doubt is going to be the case. Confusion and contradictions are the order of the case not only from the Prosecution and RTP side but also from the very limited snippets we've had from the B2/3. The defense is keeping whatever they have or not have as the case may be very close to their chest, quite rightly so.

I'm very disturbed by the early RTP investigation and anyone that is not needs their heads examined. The historical evidence of the RTP using migrant scapegoats is well documented and in the early stages of this case the indications of this were more than evident, not just in their racist statements but also in their actions, ie rounding up migrant workers, male and female for DNA testing before doing the same to the local Thai population. Added to that the speculations made by the RTP regards Chris Ware appeared to be a direct attempt to pin this one anyone other than a Thai.

Then we have the concerns about DNA, evidence planting, and even witness bribery. It all hardly makes for a trustworthy investigation that people can be assured of is fair.

In light of all this and much more I fail to see how people be it on social media, forums, or in the established media cannot but carry on asking questions, trying to find out if there's any other 'mistakes' the RTP have made that they haven't admitted to or attempting to find anyone else that may have been involved.

I do not for one moment believe the B2 are solely responsible for this crime, but I also do believe they know something about it, have information or may even be involved in some way.

I keep thinking back to the dear leader when he said that this investigation was going to be carried out as scientifically as possible we do not want to rush the RTP as they may arrest scapegoats if we do that. If somebodies DNA does not match then they are not suspects.

Well if the RTP investigation followed his words of advice then we can see one of the major flaws of this case right there.

Over 11k GBP now raised for Hannah's family to attend the trial in July, great achievement, lets hope they get to see a fair and transparent trial http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-32022526

BBC 23rd March

From the post above: That may be a belief by thousands, but the only conspiracy is the very few men at the top. Who is going to go over the heads of the top brass to scrutinize the DNA and announce the top brass are wrong? A junior officer? A reporter? You or me?

No -- the defense.

The top brass?

You

Me

The techs

The Thai government

The UK government

The UK police

The families and friends of David

The families and friends of Hannah

The witnesses (60) for the prosecution

The UK press plus the AFP CNN al jazeera etc

The Thai press

Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

All have to either be in on your conspiracy theory or are complicite in it.

You claiming only a few doesn't make it true.

All have to

How do you know what David and Hannah's friends think about the case

They haven't gone running to the press out of respect of their friends and their friends family.

You know nothing about what they will say when the case starts and may even be part of the defense teams witnesses.

Just another of these lines you run by us where you say something so it must be true.

<snip>

If you are pushing that this is a conspiracy to scapegoat the 2 Burmese defendants, the silence is meaningful.

Not one word of any of the tripe trotted out by the conspiracy theorists. Nothing about a conflict during the night before. Not one word about the person some of the posters here are intent on blaming being present on the island. Nothing from the friends at all.

The family however has spoken, asking the conspiracy theorists to stop with the speculation. They did this through the FCO. Meaning....

Lets keep this balanced shall we, the FCO have raised their concerns in the strongest terms possible (while keeping within diplomatic relations) about this case, corruption, unverified DNA, abuse of suspects have all be mentioned by them along with the need to investigate those allegations.

The UK police statement after they had actually seen the evidence which none of us has, was that what they were shown was confusing and contradictory.

Let's stay balanced, " strongest terms possible" is your characterization.

Keeping within diplomatic relations yes, expressing serious concerns of corruption, expressing concerns at the lack of independent DNA evidence, expressing concerns at the mistreatment of the suspects, is pretty strong terms in my opinion.

From the post above: That may be a belief by thousands, but the only conspiracy is the very few men at the top. Who is going to go over the heads of the top brass to scrutinize the DNA and announce the top brass are wrong? A junior officer? A reporter? You or me?

No -- the defense.

The top brass?

You

Me

The techs

The Thai government

The UK government

The UK police

The families and friends of David

The families and friends of Hannah

The witnesses (60) for the prosecution

The UK press plus the AFP CNN al jazeera etc

The Thai press

Etc etc etc etc etc etc etc

All have to either be in on your conspiracy theory or are complicite in it.

You claiming only a few doesn't make it true.

All have to

How do you know what David and Hannah's friends think about the case

They haven't gone running to the press out of respect of their friends and their friends family.

You know nothing about what they will say when the case starts and may even be part of the defense teams witnesses.

Just another of these lines you run by us where you say something so it must be true.

<snip>

If you are pushing that this is a conspiracy to scapegoat the 2 Burmese defendants, the silence is meaningful.

Not one word of any of the tripe trotted out by the conspiracy theorists. Nothing about a conflict during the night before. Not one word about the person some of the posters here are intent on blaming being present on the island. Nothing from the friends at all.

The family however has spoken, asking the conspiracy theorists to stop with the speculation. They did this through the FCO. Meaning....

Lets keep this balanced shall we, the FCO have raised their concerns in the strongest terms possible (while keeping within diplomatic relations) about this case, corruption, unverified DNA, abuse of suspects have all be mentioned by them along with the need to investigate those allegations.

The UK police statement after they had actually seen the evidence which none of us has, was that what they were shown was confusing and contradictory.