thailandchilli

Another Facebook site but due to forum rules we cannot post from has a couple small bits about Gait Analysis some people may find interesting. CSILA

I wonder if our resident expert has watched it?

The prosecution case is filled with holes and to date they have not proved that the B2 are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. It doesn't even matter what the DNA proves or does not. It has to be excluded because there is no chain of custody. Without the chain of custody, no one can believe anything regarding DNA. The confessions are useless, possibly extracted by coercion; incompetent translators; and general unprofessional actions regarding the confession process. There was no logical motive that was presented by the prosecution. In addition there are questions as to the actual investigation itself. I don't know who may actually committed this horrible crime- but I do know that no one has provided a complete picture of the deceased's actions prior to entering the AC bar; what happened in the AC bar and what happened after they left. Did the defense conduct their own investigation; interviewing all witnesses and developing their own theory of what actually happened? The missing information centers on compiling a timeline for the deceased and the B2.and seeing where it leads. Without this information-the picture is incomplete.

The work of the defense is not to find who "really" did it, it's to get their clients free.

To that end the strategy the defense is using is called FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, to create enough of the three elements to discredit the work of the RTP and the prosecution case. The problem is that doubts and uncertainties are not the way one arrives to the truth, quite the contrary in fact.

Tell that dross to the prosecution, that's all they've provided so far, unsubstantiated uncertainties and doubts but plenty of finger pointing.

From the above article

"Thai authorities have not made their own report and photographs available, stating that they do not have the budget to print the findings, according to Andy Hall.

“They said they have all the photographs, but no budget, no money to print them out. We asked for them on a CD, but they said ‘no’,” he said."

Set them free! Find the murderers for God's sake. How much more unbelievable can this all get? Surely the parents can see though all this?

Just about everyone on this forum and beyond agree with you C&D. The Thai authorities should put an end to this madness and give some respect to the victims and their families. Start again, this time let the UK police actually investigate rather than observe.

(UK) Forensic Image Comparison and Interpretation Evidence: Guidance for Prosecutors and Investigators

3.4. Subjective Analysis Due to the absence of a suitable database of facial features and no universally accepted methodology as to how two facial images should be compared, the analysis aspect of facial image comparison (and many other image interpretation tasks such as vehicle identification and gait comparison) is considered a subjective process. Therefore the opinion given by the expert will be based upon their competency, training and study of the specialist subject, rather than objective measurements. (more)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405528/Image_Comparison_and_Interpretation_Guidance_Issue_1_160115.pdf

Exactly and why its so important their credentials are checked for their opinion to be considered.

Yes -- and who hired the specialist and whether the testimony of the specialist supports those who hired them should also be taken into consideration.

Well thats pretty obvious and applies for any witness or expert, the prosecution team or a defense team is hardly likely to call in an expert to testify on their behalf if the evidence goes against their case.

Oh wait, correction the prosecution had plenty of witnesses who helped the defense

(UK) Forensic Image Comparison and Interpretation Evidence: Guidance for Prosecutors and Investigators

3.4. Subjective Analysis Due to the absence of a suitable database of facial features and no universally accepted methodology as to how two facial images should be compared, the analysis aspect of facial image comparison (and many other image interpretation tasks such as vehicle identification and gait comparison) is considered a subjective process. Therefore the opinion given by the expert will be based upon their competency, training and study of the specialist subject, rather than objective measurements. (more)

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/405528/Image_Comparison_and_Interpretation_Guidance_Issue_1_160115.pdf

Exactly and why its so important their credentials are checked for their opinion to be considered.

It reminds of some people here trying to paint a bad picture of Andy Hall intentions and motives, seriously if he did all he does for the money, he didn't choose the right cases, and wouldn't have taken the risks he has taken in the natural fruit case.

Like someone said before, I strongly believe that without him, this trial would have been very very different, the B2 owe him big time. The coverage he has given to the case saved them so far.

The donations don't amount to huge sums and for such a trial, you need funds obviously, the 2 accused wouldn't have been able to fight the accusation without the generosity of many concerned donors.

But it is easier to attack the messenger than it's message I guess...

It looks like the Prosecution has picked up on some of the ugly rumours surrounding Andy Hall which were started by a certain element within the expat community on Koh Samui, one of whom was posting on this forum until very recently. Their motives for perpetuating these rumours is beyond my understanding. Human nature is vile sometimes

I doubt the prosecution have just taken the word of some expat, there is no problem setting up a fundraiser in Thailand but if you are not spending that money for what it is meant for then it is fraud, so for example you can't ask for funds for a fair trial then use that money to set a propaganda machine with websites and forums to try discredit reputable forums the prosecution and try and push the blame on to innocent people, that would be classed as fraud.

Its not for the prosecution to take the word, its for the judges sorry, why do all your posts center around trying discrediting Andy Hall by the way?

You don't even have to be an expert to find out, do a run barefoot, then do the same with flip flops, I guarantee that you will run differently.

For starters when running or walking barefoot you don't have to worry about the flip flops flying off at the end of the leg extension.

Besides that when running people tend to instinctively straighten their feet so that the run is more efficient the muscles and tendons in the calf work as springs, absorbing energy during the contact phase and releasing it to propel the foot in the direction it is pointing at. That is why you can see people walking casually with their feet pointing outwards but when running they point more straight ahead.

In any case the differences would be quite small, and using a grainy, dark CCTV footage as a basis for analysis is basing things on shaky grounds.

The reason Gait Analysis technology was created is specifically for the reasons you mentioned above, where its difficult to identify the witness with poor cctv. A professional makes allowances for all scenarios including footwear, he would not be an expert if he did not. A fact you seem to overlook despite being a self professed expert on the matter.

Now your discrediting the profession because it does not suit your opinion.

Of course our resident expert would also be aware that gait refers to movement of the limbs and is far from restricted to footfall. It also involves mechanics of movement of the entire body to establish patterns and matches..But of course you know that already AleG as your impressive qualification you posted show. Be careful AleG as maybe,just maybe there's a person on here who actually does know about Anatomy and Gait!

Yes our resident Gait expert also failed to notice that a real expert was able to make a professional opinion on this cctv without going to Koh Samui prison and taking video of the suspect running or walking as a comparison

So you haven't any then and are just making up stories like the prosecution and RTP are doing..thought so..at least we know though !! You've asked many times for posters on here to justify themselves and qualifications and opinion and I have asked you to do the same and you can't...okay that's fine and I understand why for sure !!

My guess if Aleg is the authority on gaits as he claims he would offer more of an in depth analysis than just making an empty claim about implied differences between a running barefoot gait compared to a walking flip flopped gait. I for one have no idea but i reason the legs and feet based on structure will still have the same sort of position in movement (direction toes point)

But i am also convinced that video is fresh milk so whadda I know.

You don't even have to be an expert to find out, do a run barefoot, then do the same with flip flops, I guarantee that you will run differently.

For starters when running or walking barefoot you don't have to worry about the flip flops flying off at the end of the leg extension.

Besides that when running people tend to instinctively straighten their feet so that the run is more efficient the muscles and tendons in the calf work as springs, absorbing energy during the contact phase and releasing it to propel the foot in the direction it is pointing at. That is why you can see people walking casually with their feet pointing outwards but when running they point more straight ahead.

In any case the differences would be quite small, and using a grainy, dark CCTV footage as a basis for analysis is basing things on shaky grounds.

The reason Gait Analysis technology was created is specifically for the reasons you mentioned above, where its difficult to identify the witness with poor cctv. A professional makes allowances for all scenarios including footwear, he would not be an expert if he did not. A fact you seem to overlook despite being a self professed expert on the matter.

Now your discrediting the profession because it does not suit your opinion.

Fantastic work... comparing a walk on flip flops with a barefoot run.

I take it your now also an expert on Gait technology and base your comment on a handful of stills without seeing the movie or hearing the testimony from the "real" expert

Actually I am, indeed, an expert on the subject.

If you were indeed an expert then you would have offered your expertise any time up to a year ago when the cctv of running man was first put out there in the public domain. Somebody with that skill would have offered this at the first opportunity possible. Instead you make a stupidly childish comment about wearing flip flops and implying that this discounts a professional gait analysis.

Then after discovering that a real expert for the defense in Gait Analysis who has "real credential" testified in court and gave contradictory evidence to the RTP line you create a breaking news story by making an unsubstantiated claim that you are indeed an expert also! AleG we are not that gullible although you and the RTP would wish it that way.

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Some Acume Forensics pictures gait analysis stating running man not Wai Phyo uploaded here https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153235423705677&id=675065676&ref=m_notif&notif_t=tagged_with_story …

Fantastic work... comparing a walk on flip flops with a barefoot run.

I take it your now also an expert on Gait technology and base your comment on a handful of stills without seeing the movie or hearing the testimony from the "real" expert

The media are quite capable of reporting themselves and do. They have reporters directly in the court. I know you feel the reports are one sided but the truth hurts sometimes.

EDIT

As for the prosecution witnesses not making statements or giving interviews, put your brain in gear. They would be torn to shreds by the media after the first couple of questions, do you not remember, they "don't know" anything! Apart from pointing fingers and saying it was them.

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Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

@JQP6 Defence have requested these documents. Without them no DNA test can be credible. Hopefully the judges understand this.

2 or 3 posters here fail to understand this but yes lets hope the judges do and also keep up the critical thinking BBC

This is so sad

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/2015-09-15/moving-video-tribute-made-to-david-miller-from-girlfriend/

This is real life horror and tragedy. Pray for justice whoever the killers are.

I believe we have a certain poster on here that must have everyone on ignore apart from one or 2 buddies coz he sure as hell takes no notice of the facts presented by other posters and is unable to comprehend basic logic. An I don't care attitude that is echoed by the RTP from the beginning of the investigation right through to the end of the prosecution case. Get a conviction and disregard all else. Fair trial......whats that, their just a couple of migrant scum in their eyes. Human rights defenders an inconvenient distraction but ignored never the less. Evidence that contradicts their case, we don't care.

Pure evil in my opinion

Well, and as I said in the very first place, and will repeat again now, I am not interested in anything that goes on behind the scenes if it is not presented in a court of law and used as evidence. Even Forensic Experts have a right to their own opinion.

If she has some damning evidence, which has been claimed for months, then present it to the court. That is if she is not breaking any UK Laws, which she should check first. But go ahead. I am all ears. Let's see what she has. Or is all that just more smoke and no fire?

Yes all ears do you have anything inbetween?

Back with the insults again are we?

Try reading the last posts on this and then get back to me with the truth rather than your fabricated fantasy, it has been presented to the court............read man

Well, not really. I still think that OJ was guilty. But then I am not the court. What is the most important is what the court thinks and not me. That they have not been influenced by the media and social networks. I hope they believe innocent until proven guilty, which they are sworn to do.

But the Prosecution has made there case already, and whether you believe it is strong or not, they point to the accused guilt. So now it is the Defense Team that has to dispute this, which I believe they are doing now. They have to create reasonable doubt. If you believe reasonable doubt has been created already, then good on you. But I don't. .

So GB if that was one of your sons in the dock would u be happy for the police/courts to send your child to their death on the evidence submitted so far??

Straight Answer Yes/No

As a side note I did provide you with the coroners details and you have chosen not to follow it up so I have done it for you. A copy is posted earlier on this thread. At least then we can put you straight.

Well, and as I said in the very first place, and will repeat again now, I am not interested in anything that goes on behind the scenes if it is not presented in a court of law and used as evidence. Even Forensic Experts have a right to their own opinion.

If she has some damning evidence, which has been claimed for months, then present it to the court. That is if she is not breaking any UK Laws, which she should check first. But go ahead. I am all ears. Let's see what she has. Or is all that just more smoke and no fire?

Yes all ears do you have anything inbetween? Obviously not able to read the last posts on this subject are you?

Stealth, I admire your optimism but it's not realistic. No heads will roll, no face will be lost, and no changes will be made. They couldn't care less about what we think, it's all about Thailand.

Steven , I understand your reasoning but I am still not that convinced that nothing will happen.

Surely PM Prayuth will take some action as he is the one who said something like "they better not be using scapegoats"

I also have high hopes on this however its not so much to do with the dear Junta. The judges now have the UK autopsy report which according to the defense contains significant new evidence that will discredit the RTP case.

The judges know this will be made public in the not too distant future and will need to consider it carefully before making a decision. Otherwise this whole thing will blow up again right in their faces. Perhaps they don't care about that? I hope they do.

Defence lawyers working on the trial of the two men accused of murdering David Miller in Thailand, have alleged police incompetence and mishandling of evidence.

Now they have enlisted the help of a CCTV expert in Britain to look at footage used as evidence, who will be giving a statement today.

http://www.itv.com/news/channel/2015-09-23/lawyers-in-thai-murder-trial-accuse-police-of-incompetence/

Thanks for your predictable reply.

Maybe I should have limited my post to ask for a Yes/No answer, to avoid the inevitable deflective, non-commital response. So, 'Balo', I ask you now whether you agree in principle (putting aside all the other issues) that the Thai police investigation should be re-opened if the B2 are found not guilty. Please answer Yes or No this time. Thanks. The same Yes/No question and answer also goes to AG, Goldbuggy and friends.

Of course it wll be reopened , I thought that was clear , YES, but if RTP decide to reopen the case there will be not a lot of RTP believers on this forum.

A new investigation under that scenario will probably a dead end, there will be no DNA evidence (hypothetically having already been discredited), it will be a very empty slate that, as you mention, would only please the alternative theory crowd because they'll have an empty canvass on which to draw their own ideas.

It's been a year since the murders, the alternative crowd has produced exactly zero evidence to support a case against anyone else and that is not bound to change, regardless of the outcome of the case; the only real evidence available is the one that the police has assembled. By taking the knee jerk and prejudiced stance of completely discrediting the RTP work the end result will be, as I mentioned before, that the baby is going to go out with the bath water.

I think the families would disagree and would want a new investigation at all costs

So apparently from the witness list, the Defense will be presenting no witnesses -- UK, Thai, or otherwise -- who were at the scene or vicinity of the crimes on the night in question and who who were in the company of the victims who can testify as to the doings of Ms. Witheridge or Mr. Miller in the hours previous to the crimes.

Which is odd because I distinctly remember them claiming that they had witnesses that could prove the two defendants innocence, including eye witnesses.

More memories by you that are unsubstantiated. I'm particularly interested in this little gem " including eye witnesses" Please go ahead and prove me wrong with a link that states they had these eye witnesses who were going to attend the trial. Other than those who were to afraid to attend.

"U Aung Myo Thant said one of the eyewitnesses saw the men who accompanied the British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller from the hotel shortly before the murder. Another witness said he had seen the rape by the light of his motorbike."

I'm sure you are quite satisfied in believing the reason these supposed witnesses don't seem to have materialized is because they were scared of by some vague but nefarious group, from appearing in court... or recording their testimony outside of court, or anything at all that would point to their actual existence.

Read my post, I'm fully aware of those witnesses and yes they were to scared to return to Thailand. Next time try responding to what I asked for.

Yes I'm also satisfied with the explanation given by the defense I have far more trust in their honesty than I do your RTP which you base your complete trust in to provide evidence that is honest and reliable

Can somebody on this forum who knows something about DNA kindly explain this?

Mr Waiyawuth said that a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile but that did not mean he could be included as a suspect. DNA experts agree that DNA profiling demands a 99.9999% accurate match.

What is meant by "a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile"? Does this mean that the partial profile was from someone of the same ethnicity, i.e. Asian, as one of the suspects?

No it does not.

A DNA profile can be thought of in simple terms as a set of 20- 30 different numbers, depending on whether the UK system (10 pairs of markers) or the US system (13 pairs of markers) is being used.

At each marker you read two numbers. In every person these numbers at each marker can vary between say 5 and 20. It's like a combination lock of 30 numbers long with each of the 30 values having at least 10 possibilities. Finding the combination by chance would have a probability less than one in 50 billion.

In exactly the same way, a DNA profile with all 30 numbers identifies a person absolutely: it is just impossible for two people to have the same set of 30 numbers by chance, so this is a perfect identification system.

BUT if you can only read 20 out of the 30 numbers , or 15 out of the 20, how good is the identification? Only being able to read some of the numbers from a DNA profile is very common indeed: when the DNA is in low amounts, when the DNA is a mix of many people, when the sample is very old and cells are degraded, when the sample is from a rape kit where the swab was taken a long period after the crime and the suspect's sample has been degraded by body enzymes, and so on.

So this is what, in general terms, is meant by a "partial profile".

The situation is even more uncertain here because they are talking about Y-chromosome profiling. This is often done when the DNA is in very low amounts, or is contaminated with huge amounts of victim DNA (as is often the case in sexual assaults), and you can't do a 'proper' 30-marker identification profile.

Because only men have the Y-chromosome, testing for a Y-chromosome profile eliminates all female DNA without having to do complicated chemical separations on the sample that can destroy much of it if the quality or amount is low.

BUT Y-chromosome typing is NOT good enough for identification purposes, because the Y-chromosome, unlike the markers used in the 13 marker profling above, does not change enough over time to be useful. All male relatives: fathers, brother, sons, paternal uncles, will have identical Y-chromosome markers, Also in some populations, especially where there is not much migration, it is possible for the same Y-chromosome profile to be present in as many as 1 in a 1000 unrelated people. So even a complete Y-chromosome profile is not good enough to prove identity.

Its main use is to exclude suspects. If a marker is present with, say, value 20 in a suspect, but the crime scene DNA has the value 11 at this place, this proves beyond argument that the DNA is not the suspect's.

A Y-chromosome match of 25%, which is being discussed here, means that only one quarter of the markers were the same. This means nothing at all about identification, as the witness said. No markers were readable that excluded the suspect, and a match of one quarter of the markers with the suspect gives no indication at all about whether it is his DNA, because this same match could have been obtained from any random man off the street.

Not often I'll bookmark a post but this is one I will. Informative and authoritative post, many thanks

So apparently from the witness list, the Defense will be presenting no witnesses -- UK, Thai, or otherwise -- who were at the scene or vicinity of the crimes on the night in question and who who were in the company of the victims who can testify as to the doings of Ms. Witheridge or Mr. Miller in the hours previous to the crimes.

Which is odd because I distinctly remember them claiming that they had witnesses that could prove the two defendants innocence, including eye witnesses.

More memories by you that are unsubstantiated. I'm particularly interested in this little gem " including eye witnesses" Please go ahead and prove me wrong with a link that states they had these eye witnesses who were going to attend the trial. Other than those who were to afraid to attend.

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Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

Wait a second. Is this some sort of tactic to keep expert witnesses from testifying? Where are the damn documents? What the hell do the police have over there....this is i'm...utterly speechless.

I really hope this lame excuse doesn't work....

Please more commentary...why don't the defense have this documents already....and why do they need them? To show the lack of a match or what.

Its beyond words to express how outrageous this tactic is being played by the prosecution. Using every tool in their arsenal to stop a fair trial and ultimate justice for the victims

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Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

Oh brilliant, how much more of this ludicrous situation can be taken and the families are there witnessing this for gods sake!!

I think it's obvious that it is a different one and is broken across the blade.

What appears obvious for the majority of reasonable minded people such as a seriously flawed investigation and trial is not obvious for those who for whatever reason seem hell bent on backing the official RTP "story". Its worth noting however that such a minority of people who believe this story all seem to have connections to K.T.

Those two pics are the same hoe

Sorry not sure what pics your referring to but I've re posted the 2 separate hoes below.