thailandchilli

Just to clarify the argument some seem to be having that the defense suddenly asked for the chain of custody documents to be handed over at the last minute so their expert could testify on it as if that was some sort of ploy to surprise them. The defense have been asking for weeks for this. The RTP/Prosecution has refused for weeks to provide. Go figure.......

This is just one of the reports but if you care to Google there are numerous reports out there highlighting the attempts to get this from the prosecution.

23rd July http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1437661326

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

unfortunately, so far the policy has been to close the thread between sessions, trolling or no trolling, so I guess we don't have much time left to contribute.

Thanks to everybody for sharing useful info, it sure is nice to have a place like this to follow the trial and share views.

I guess we'll talk again in two weeks, until then, take care.

I think the mods won't mind leaving it open if we can keep it civil not to argue with the poster just report them if they are baiting or trolling as chilli says it should work.

I agree and there's still news reports to come out from today's hearing along with plenty of useful debate among rational posters. I think its very important to keep things simmering

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

Any of the more knowledgeable folk here got any suggestions as to why the prosecution get 13 days and the defense only 6 days??

Not saying I'm knowledgeable but from what I gather it was the amount of witnesses, ie the prosecution submitted a list of 65 and the defense about 12 I think.

However the prosecution then in my opinion took advantage of that and took up all their allocated days + stealing a day from the defense and only producing less than half of the promised 65

Again we hear a prolific poster hold onto the DNA issue, when there is no chain of custody, results produced faster than even experts have stated, why wasn't the person who conducted these tests able to provide documentation and a schedule of events that took place the moment the DNA was handed over to them?

What were the instructions given as to the priority of those samples, also pretty sure that it was claimed that the samples actually went to Singapore as Thailand didn't have the ability to produce fast results.

Who signed for the samples on receipt of them, and who signed for the results after they were complete?

Far too many discrepancies with regards to simple hearsay that DNA was actually submitted, without any signatures and a chain of custody, these examples are the figment of imaginations, discrepancies in both autopsies should have been enough to make someone go " wait a minute, what's going on here" but nope, the results are dismissed immediately out of hand, that's not an opinion, that's an agenda pure and simple.

It is impossible to tell what the current position about the status of the DNA evidence actually is from newspaper reports of statements by "spokesmen" who do not know anything about what DNA evidence is, or how it is gathered , or how it is interpreted, made to reporters who are even more ignorant, and who are usually translating very badly and inaccurately into English.

I would say objectively at present there is no way of telling what DNA evidence there is, how it has been presented in the case, and what the future status of any presentation is going to be. I do not trust social media accounts, and I do not trust newspapers except in as far as they are directly reporting what has been said in court, not at second hand, but because the reporter has been present in court, and understands the language.

I think I believe at the very minimum that the defence has engaged one of the best known forensic DNA experts in the world, Jane Taupin, and that she has not testified, although she is ready to. I cannot believe that this has been made up, as this person is too well known to be the subject of false rumours.

The explanation given for her lack of testimony by Andy Hall is that the report on which the DNA evidence was based has not been made available, so she cannot give testimony on it. This also seems unlikely to have been made up, as it would be too easy to find out and report that it isn't true. In addition I remember reading that when the police forensic witness was on the stand giving testimony it was reported that she said the police refuse to make the DNA report available, citing a Thai law that prevents private information on individuals being circulated (!). This may well be false reporting however.

Now the verifiable fact that the defence have a world expert on DNA ready to testify and she has not been able to seems to require a LOT of explanation. If the police will not make available the report on which their entire case is based, that tells you something fairly significant. I have always thought that, even if the Thai police have fabricated every other item of evidence out of an arrogant and stupid desire to make their case better, then if this DNA evidence is true, they are probably on a safe and justified conviction.

It now seems to me more and more likely that this DNA evidence either doesn't exist at all, or is so compromised and inadequate that it doesn't even prove identity. What possible reason could there be to hide the only evidence directly linking the accused to the crime?

Very difficult to argue with such an analysis, thanks again for your post, probably one of the most informative posters at this stage of the trial.

Over 2 weeks till the next session. Lets try to keep this thread open and learn from our most previous example just a few posts ago, if a troll appears report, the mods are acting quickly

and who is A? the third one they talked about at some point (you have to agree that if there is a B and a C, it is because there is also a A...

Originally, they were planning on three scapegoats, preferably large ones (really necessary for it to be credible they could overcome two big Westerners). Mr A was the third scapegoat that they were, in the end, unable to produce.

The police originally arrested three men, the third one was let go because there was no evidence to implicate him with the murders. So the idea the they were simply out to get anyone and make them fit into a predetermined scenario is not just not supported by any facts, the facts contradict it.

Same as the theory that there was never any DNA evidence to begin with, a few days after the murders they announced there were two sets of DNA from Asian males, then they used that to test and clear out suspects for the next three weeks.

The idea that they would simply make everything up is absurd, what's the scenario? They just pretend that they have DNA evidence, go around making a fool of themselves by pointing fingers at this suspect and that suspect, backpedaling and then, after over three weeks finally bring the plan to fruition by this time pointing the finger at the men now on trial all that charade for the purpose of... what exactly?

Besides that people should make up their minds already, one year of hearing how the original police team was the real deal until they were pushed aside to frame up some innocent people, and now it was the original team that fabricated all the evidence in the first place? Which one is it?

Primarily the local police, with the connivance of elements of both the teams of senior investigators.

The third suspect at the time when it was the B3 was not charged because he managed to get through the torture he suffered at the hands of the RTP. So without that confession it would have been harder to also pin false DNA on him

Janjira Janpeau said Mao Mao told her he had also been beaten by police officers on Koh Tao during three days of detention and interrogation, and that one of the defendants, Zaw Lin, had shown him a wound on his chest after he allegedly confessed to the killings. http://www.greatyarmouthmercury.co.uk/news/hannah_witheridge_s_family_return_to_thailand_for_closing_days_of_trial_following_breach_of_legal_rights_claim_1_4245303

Its well documented that arrests had to happen as the world was watching, when the RTP could not or would not find the real perps they then went for the current accused.

There's a huge difference between accepting others views and accepting others false facts that are clearly not true and need to be challenged

More human rights advocates concerns

Mark Farmaner ‏@MarkFarmaner 2h2 hours ago

As Koh Tao trial continues, Thai investigation exposed as farce, Did UK gov know this and do nothing? Did they tell the families?

Washington Post

Hall also alleged that the whole process “from investigation to arrest to detention to prosecution” was violent or abusive, and said he had also experienced threats in connection with the case, including from the governor of the prison where the two defendants were held.The human rights investigator, Janjira Kanpeang, testified about how the commission investigated the case and found that torture had been used, said Hall and defense lawyer Nakhon.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/defense-in-thai-tourist-murder-case-alleges-unjust-pressure/2015/09/24/4a74cd0a-62ca-11e5-8475-781cc9851652_story.html

Question, has anyone ever been so scared because of threats of death against them, been humiliated, tortured and then paraded like sacrificial lambs for slaughter in front of the world's press that are clambering to take photos of them because of what they had confessed to do under torture?

Then are led into a fake re enactment where they have no clue what to do and are led by the puppet masters into a scenario that is complete make believe.

My deepest feelings go out to them, I can only imagine they would be in shock and agree to absolutely anything:

“We heard the translator ask one suspect: “What did you do with the hoe (the alleged murder weapon) afterwards?” The suspect says: “I don’t know”. The translator then says: “You put it under the tree didn’t you.” The suspect was clearly being led,” said the human rights activist.

Human Rights Thailand interviewed the defendants. They also interviewed their friend, Mao Mao, who had been with them in the early hours.

Do we really need to read all the details. Can you not subdue it a bit. Please. This is a young girl, loved by her family, Who are sitting there today. Trying to comprehend what happend to her and who did it. Have a bit of decorum.

The way some of you are talking about her, is disgusting.

Talking about her private parts etc, in such horrible ways, how dare you?

I'm sorry I don't see anyone talking about her private parts and if they did I'm sure the post would be quite rightly reported and deleted by mods.

Very strange nothing is mentioned of all the stab wounds to David's neck, throat, arm and the defensive wounds to his hands. Is this something that the defense wanted to bring up when it got the photos from the prosecution. Has the focus only been on Hannah's autopsy?

The focus is on that because the defense wants to cast doubt on the rape, because the UK autopsy didn't reveal rape related lesions. The Thai report doesn't mention lesions, only mentions evidence of rape and specifies semen traces, which are of course evidence of rape.

What semen? The semen the DNA match that has been reported by the RTP with no evidence to back it up?

And even if there was semen there whose is it? Oh the RTP said it belongs to the B2, but again no evidence to back that up.

If there was semen how is that evidence of rape.

Jonathan Head ‏@pakhead Sep 22Na Mueang, Surat Thani

@JQP6 Defence have requested these documents. Without them no DNA test can be credible. Hopefully the judges understand this.

Jonathan Head ‏@pakhead Sep 22Na Mueang, Surat Thani

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests

So current state of play of some of the more recent revelations that have been reported I'm sure I've missed a few, links for all the below available for reasonable posters:

Interesting from yesterdays hearing, the UK police are going to be making a complaint to Thai Authorities:

“UK police said they have never confirmed that it was David’s phone. They will complain to the Thai government on this issue,” Hall said.

http://m.irrawaddy.org/burma/defense-cites-serious-shortcomings-in-koh-tao-murder-probe-as-trial-continues.html

Very interesting shot of running man from a still that was taken from the movie shown at the trial by the Gait expert. Shows just how close he was to the mystery couple.

Good example of the attitude and disrespect shown for migrant workers on Koh Tao at the trial yesterday from the prosecutor.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153236354015677&id=675065676

I was absolutely horrified at the level of degregation or abusive nature of the Koh Tao murder case prosecutor questions to a Myanmar migrant defence witness today at Koh Samui court. For me, this is beyond the bounds of reasonable behaviour by a prosecutor, lawyer or thai government official…
As note talking not allowed in the court every word may not be 100% accurate and I don’t insist this is a 100% accurate recollection.
—-
Prosecution lawyer: where are you from?
Myanmar migrant: Tavoy region, Myanmar
Prosecution lawyer:you know Rakhine ethnic persons?
Myanmar migrant: only a few, one of my friends works on an overnight boat from Surat Thani to Koh Phangan
Prosecution lawyer: did you agree that Rakhine people like to kill others by beating them over the head?
Myanmar migrant: (cannot remember answer but pretty sure he said no)
Prosecution lawyer: did you know recently that a Myanmar migrant killed their employer
Myanmar migrant: i heard about that, not clear what place

A regrouping of certain posters will be on the agenda now planning their next strategy, criticizing of A.H. back fired so perhaps now it'll be a go at the UK coroner

So in the Thai news they say there's no evidence of a sexual assault. The corner has said why if she was raped as the RTP claimed is there no evidence of it. Which is why she has released the report.

Ask your partners if Thai to listen to this http://www.now26.tv/view/55814

I wish we could get subtitles on that but it clearly says they found no signs of rape.

Its also says that the bite marks stated by the Thai pathologist to be on Hannah's breast do not exist.

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Well that is the bombshell. No rape no semen, no suspects DNA. A cold-bloodied murder, instead, most likely carried out by a gang of enraged Thai thugs who attacked Hannah and David - with the victims trying to defend themselves with a hoe.

Explains why the DNA documentation has not been provided by the RTP. It's fictional.

Reminds me of that Thai motorbike gang of 4 who mugged 2 UK women the night before on the same stretch of beach, reported here

The women were robbed of their bags, cameras and iPhones by the group of four Thai men, according to James Isaacs, a British tourist and friend of the victims. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11111774/Thai-motorbike-gang-mugged-British-women-night-before-backpacker-couple-were-murdered-on-Koh-Tao-island.html

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

Have never believed she was raped from the beginning. Another storyline manufactured by the RTP and prosecution no doubt to fit in with the colossal cover up.

Correct I remember your posts on that many months back and you getting slated for even suggesting this

Human Rights Thailand accuse police of breaching legal rights in murder trial of Hannah Witheridge

07:56 24 September 2015

Sarah Yuen in Thailand

Human Rights Thailand has accused Thai police of breaching the legal rights of the two Burmese men on trial for the murder of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge, and deliberately leading the detainees during re-enactments of the crime.

Janjira Janpeau, a representative of the organisation, attacked police procedure while giving evidence in court on the island of Koh Samui.

She said it was abominable that both the 22 year-old suspects had been interrogated and made to participate in public and filmed re-enactments of the killing of 23 year-old Ms Witheridge, and fellow British tourist David Miller from Jersey, without any legal representation.

cont:

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/human_rights_thailand_accuse_police_of_breaching_legal_rights_in_murder_trial_of_hannah_witheridge_1_4245303?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=dlvr.it

from that article -

“We heard the translator ask one suspect: “What did you do with the hoe (the alleged murder weapon) afterwards?” The suspect says: “I don’t know”. The translator then says: “You put it under the tree didn’t you.” The suspect was clearly being led,” said the human rights activist.

thanks Stealth - out of likes.

we're all outta likes I think

So on another Thai media website it goes into more details on some of the points in the UK autopsy report that has not been reported in the English press, probably because of the graphic nature and out of respect for the victims families as AH mentioned, but I can summarize without going into details that Hannah displayed no traces of rape. I'll get my Thai wife to translate it a bit better when she gets back tonight.

She is extremely well-known, and what's more crucial, a genuine leader in her field- amazing that they got her (I have her book : Introduction to Forensic DNA Evidence for Criminal Justice Professionals 2013).

There is now no doubt at all if the report is made available this witness will be able to discern any discrepancies or inconsistencies without effort. She is a much greater expert than Pornthip in this field.

It still troubles me she has been called, is waiting to testify, and the defence have not yet established whether they will even get the report. What's more they need to be able to call the lab personnel who did the original testing, because the questions that will need to be asked will be too technical for anyone else to be any help.

Yes and so therein the defense has a major problem, if the prosecution does not show the documents required then having this expert testify is next to worthless apart from making a general summary with no reference to the chain of custody and records.

Another poster here suggested the prosecution may make the documents available but not till its too late and she has gone. But who knows, the fact we do know is that withholding these documents from expert scrutiny is more than highly suspicious and can only lead to one reason assumption. They are deliberately hiding evidence.

It seems to me the defence have been on the back foot for weeks. There are only 3 days left, and any time during that three days that is not devoted to discussion, cross-examination and validation of the DNA evidence is utterly wasted time, that possibly leaves the accused open to a clear guilty verdict.

I simply don't understand what they are doing giving hours of evidence on working conditions of the Burmese, and video evidence that isn't even accepted in western courts as being anything but subjective and questionable, like "gait-analysis".

I wonder if they are competent, or merely just at the mercy of delaying tactics? But again, why didn't they make requests for the actual DNA report the absolutely central part of their case from day 1? Are they really going to wait until the time assigned to the case has run out and then say, we couldn't get the report, so we couldn't cross-examine?

In parenthesis it is very hard to think of any rational, unsuspicious reason, why, in a case being watched all over the world, the police will not give the defence any copies of their post mortem report, or the DNA report. Even if they are not obliged to by law, why would they not, except if this evidence could be faulted and they don't want this to happen?

They had an expert for this from Australia but:

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Jonathan Head‏@pakhead

At #kohtao murder trial today. Defence have Aust forensic expert but she can't testify till police show documents that back their DNA tests