John Kane

Some one said Madagascar has a flourishing sex work trade.  Not exactly.  The most common price is 40,000 ariaris for all night which is only about $12.  Like sex trafficking all over the world, it is difficult to find any victims because it is normal push/pull factors of migration that result in people taking great risk to go where things are better.  If you leave $12 for all night behind and get $35 to $70 for an hour, that looks pretty good.   And I assure you, living in BKK, even living on the cheap, beats living in Tana.  

But here these women, while not beautiful in the way we are used to, are struggling with imported racism.  By imported racism I mean whinny expats from all over the world bring their racial prejudice with them and show it off on ThaiVisa just as we can see here today.   

Thailand is de facto decriminalized now and it would be better if Thailand had the courage to simply be decriminalized regarding sex work.  Madagascar has legal prostitution.  Sex workers in this story face the issue of not having a visa allowing them to work here.  The other issue is anyone under 18 years old.  If those two factors are under control, prostitution is considered to be under control - at least here.  And that is quite normal all over the world.  

Oddly enough in many countries where real pay is extremely low for people we depend on at times for life and death situations corruption is accepted as a way too give more public money to people who are theoretically receiving the actual public service.   We are effectively being taxed (under the table) for breaking the law in some minor way to off set pay for people who can not live on what they get officially.  In Albania, when I drove Albanian friends they had no problem with police stops at lunchtime (for lunch money) as we approached each village.  Why?  Because my friends knew the police were paid, just as Thai police are paid, so little that they deserve (in the minds of the common people) what is effectively considered a reasonable tip.  If the minor corruption is eliminated no one will agree to be a policeman.  Raise the pay and the big corruption can be attacked successfully.   But if the police pay is raised all other workers will clamor for more too.  These are some of the complexities people don't understand when there is demand to just stop corruption as if it can be done by fiat.     

Wow.  This post certainly brought all the most cynical and snippy people out in force.  No, farangs do not need a certain amount of money to get a visa to Thailand.  That is only true if you plan to stay for an extended period.  Attractive, younger Thai women have the biggest problem to get a visa to visit the USA.  The reason is the faux issue of trafficking is riding a 15 year bandwagon of extreme exaggeration and moral confusion.  Consular officers have huge discretion to make decisions regarding any visa and it is safer for them to say "No" than it is to risk letting someone in who will make negative news later for any reason.  

I am attending a Masters program at Chulalongkorn, without doubt the most respected university in Thailand.  The cost by the semester is 80,000 baht for foreign people and 26,000 baht for Thais.  For me that is four graduate level courses.  But my program advisor almost demanded that I ask for a scholarship, even though I was willing to pay.  Big surprise!   I got a full scholarship for tuition, a 10,000 baht per month stipend, and a dormitory room, and one round trip per semester "home," although I consider myself to be home.  

Pretty damned amazing if you ask me.  What else should I be doing in my ninth year of retirement.  So I will learn some serious stuff at no major expense.  My goal is to be able to substantiate the things I might say here on ThaiVisa (and elsewhere) instead of being a irritating bar stool philosopher whining about Thailand, as so many seem to be here.   I will be a certified, educated, whining, bar stool philosopher.  

I have always thought that Thailand is a great example for the rest of the world regarding sex work. Technically, as I understand, prostitution is illegal but the operation of entertainment venues (places understood to have prostitution) are legally licensed. It is a sad commentary on the way women are treated. But the result has been de facto decriminalization. In that regard it works quite well. Worldwide there is huge exaggeration about violence and it is simply not true. Abuse of of "children" is another inaccurate narrative used by those who wish to oppressive women over the oppressor's sex values. But the numbers of those under 18 is usually shown to be very small when we hear reports of raids. Those "children" are almost always 16 and 17 year olds with children of their own. They are desperate to do what their older sisters do to feed those kids. In example after example there is shown to be a struggle of those who want to attack prostitution for moralistic and idealogical reasons and those who recognize that feminism is about the right for women to do what they wish under these difficult economic times. How many people stop to ask how much those workers in 7/11 are paid and how much sometimes quite attractive women working at heavy labor on construction sights are paid? Sex work is one job that pays more than any other option and the work is easier in most cases. The narrative that sex workers are anxiously waiting to be "rescued" is silly for those of us with any first hand knowledge of this issue. The USA has been on a rampage for 15 years to market their extreme conservative sex culture and it needs to be resisted. Thailand has great potential to be a good example by decriminalizing sex work as Amnesty International, the World Health Organization and many other respected group suggest is the best way to change the narrative that powers this social panic called trafficking.

Take a bus. They're great! Cheap sensible and they go to the center of town.

You can take more with you on a bus than you can on a plane. Less hassle all around.

The train really sucks. Very slow too. But you can send a lot of stuff cheaply by train.

Few more of these photo ops and that's human trafficking extinct. Can go back to normal where it still happens but America is eternally appeased.

You hit it on the head. "Appeased" is a good word for the issue we call sex trafficking. No one - except Russia who told the USA to take their TIP program and shove it a few years ago - can just ignore the most religiously extreme and politically correct yet wealthiest first world country.

In a way America needs to share its many social panic issues internationally to validate its own conception of moral greatness.

The International Megan's Law was recently passed and section seven (reciprocity) says other countries will be expected to create sex offender lists and place a stamp in their passport - as America will do - so countries can discriminate accordingly. Goggle Catherine Carpenter on YouTube to hear how sex offender lists have turned out. Like TIP, that too will soon go international.

One of the best ways to see where all this could be going is to look into some Sci-Fi books and movies like Elysium and Ice Piercer to see a world in the near future where the top 1% have everything and the rest of us are controlled. Amazing exaggeration about sex trafficking leads to new rules and penalties. They will join fences, walls, visas and passports as ways to control movement.

There is academic research making the rounds now in Thailand that 105% of sex workers may be subject to violence from customers every seven weeks. Of course that means we have to save the "girls" since we've already been taught that a huge percentage of the sex workers are under 18. Right? Take away the deliberate exaggeration like that and it soon becomes apparent that traditional laws are all we need.

I am beginning academic-style research into violence against sex workers. This is likely to grow into a Master or PhD thesis.

For background only, what do you know about violence against sex workers?

This is becoming an important issue. Thanks to the expose' of Somaly Mam (Newsweek, May, 21, 2014) we know that anecdotal stories and huge numbers are important to justify and fund "rescue" NGOs. Maybe the need for rescue NGOs and their use of funds should be reconsidered - either increased or decreased - as a result of better understanding of violence sex workers face.

Now there is a study making the rounds claiming 15% of all Thai prostitutes experience violence weekly. (The Nation, May 28, 2016) Yes, at that rate 105% of all Thai sex workers can be assumed to be subject to violence every 7 weeks. Does this sound about right to you? What are your qualifications to have an opinion?

Comments from the Thai farang community will be helpful for background. Thanks - -

There is an American living here since he was a teenager with his military family who, first, is now a billionaire and, second, is a long time Thai citizen. I would love to hear his experience in becoming a Thai citizen and how it compares to others. A newspaper article said he is lucky if he knows 100 Thai words. I often day dream about what my life would be like if I were in Thailand starting in the late 60s - and never left. Of course we all know America is the land of opportunity, not Thailand. (yes, that is sarcasm) But it worked for that guy and I am both jealous and proud of him.

I hate to say anything here because I will be bombarded with this issue. This isn't my issue but it is a social panic issue that deserve more than the bar stool philosophers that ay such stupid things here. I suggest many commenters here need a small awaking about how "sex offenders lists" have turned out in America, the land of the free. I strongly urge you to Google this

Catherine Carpenter: "Sexual Offense Laws and Constitutionality"

We might all have some kind of conversation online with a 16 year old, without knowing it is a fat old cop somewhere else in the world. In a social panic anything we might say is under the microscope. This is a "freedom of speech" issue like many others in a changing world where the result of a social panic issue dominants social media with little thought to old fashion freedom of speech, not to mention innocent until proven guilty. We are all on the edge of some crazy Philip K. Dick sci-fi envisioned society and just don't see it until we are all under full control of new laws.

My previous quotes about Finland's education system is widely known throughout the academic community. Thailand is not a large country and has much to learn from Finland, but not the US, a country itself unable to learn partly due to the famous "if it isn't invented here principle, it must not be good." Somehow my second paragraph didn't appear. I referenced several authors to look into but Harvard's Tony Wagner in particular is a source for educational comparison in his many books on education. I suggest Wagner's The Global Achievement Gap as a good place to start learning about education worldwide. A quick look at Amazon.com will be useful for both we of the Forum barstool philosophers cohort and also the Thai government.

Interesting that a few people have commented on Bar girls etc not wanting to leave the game for "normal" paying jobs.

I had an acquaintance in the real estate business. He was fed up with employing University graduates with good English skills, basically they were lazy and their English was rubbish. He tried to recruit Bar girls etc because in general they were the opposite, incidentally he was offering very good wages.

It sort of worked for a while but all of them returned to the game, not because of the money but because they actually preferred the life, their words!

When they tell you it is all about sending money back home it is not strictly true in most cases, they do send some back but keep the majority for themselves.

I once listed my 18 reasons why women stay in sex work. In addition to the obvious ones, my list included ones like "as they get older this work affirms they are still sexy", "the hours offer great flexibility good for young mothers", and "there is no need for a resume and they get money in their hand as soon as they have their first customer.

Frankly I have the secret to explain all sex work in Thailand but, since I might do my PhD thesis on it and write a popular book too, I will keep it my secret.

GAATW is wrong! The more I learn about Thai marriage to farang men the more contempt I have for the so called "rescue industry" AKA the oppressive paradigm like the Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women (GAATW) who only sing American's tune attacking women in sex work around the world.

I think there are three kinds of marriages, maybe more. Women in sex work really do have a short cut to at least meet foreign men and some do get married. The romantic-based kind of marriage, so widely accepted in the first world, seem to be based on impractical ideas formed in movies and books and are the most likely to fail. Arranged marriages, common in much of the world, work very well and may be the most successful. A third kind are those with a large element of practical sharing of assets and expectations as we see between young Thai women and foreign men, sometimes much older men, but not always. The man provides an important upgrade and hope for the future for the whole Thai family with his greater resources. The woman provides in many cases a new family and missing social commitment that seems so hard to find in first world countries these days. When my children were gone from the home and my wife of 32 years had a great job she loved, she dumped me. Oddly enough I can find a replacement situation here that is attractive to consider with the same familial contact and nurturing I lost back home.

How many VISA readers are aware that Issan country music has at least seven popular Thai language songs that are very favorable about relationships with farangs. I am sure there are many more but I know of seven. In those songs a mother might sing to their daughters to find a farang man to take care of them. Some of the songs are funny, but none so far seem to be preaching negatively against relationships with farangs. By this I deduce there is a significant popular culture authenticating the very relationships these GAATW documentaries are attacking. I have lived in several other countries too - Albania, Dominican Republic, and others - and without exception women I met were very open about how they just did not like or trust the men of their own countries and thought foreign men were more respectful in every way. GAATW can spew negative publicity that largely remains unchallenged. It should be challenged! This is interesting: https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/voices/striking-defeat-us-government-s-anti-prostitution-pledge

The PM might be on to something. Finland is becoming quite famous as a country that leads the world in academic achievements of its students on international test results, etc. But Finland also starts school a year later, spends less time in classes, expects students to do less homework, and spends more time outside in "playground" between classes than most other countries. This has been widely discussed in American academic circles but, of course, the USA, being so widely known among its own citizens as already being exceptional, can not follow Finland's example. But Thailand might be able to ignore America's example in so many issues, and instead do what Finland does for better education.

The web address in the above comment is not the best. If interested in the report on the Supreme Court case go here - -

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(13)61468-3/fulltext?rss=yes

I am sometimes sadden by Forum replies, but not the VISA itself. This small VISA article is important. Setting aside the puritanical nature of the Islamic world which we are all aware of, lets talk about the entire issue of sex trafficking, sex work, and sex tourism. I doubt one in a thousand VISA readers know that all of those issues are severely exaggerated and demonized by fundamentalist Christian puritanism and extreme feminism arising from America. George W, Bush had to reward conservative religious voters who elected him. He, as it turned out, was also a stooge for extreme feminist leaders. In 2002 GW Bush enacted the President's Emergency Plan for AIDs Relief (PEPFAR). The US became the world's biggest funder of humanitarian efforts to end AIDs. It was rife with problems. For example, if a group gave away condoms, they were denied funds or lost existing funding. Those who received funds had to take a pledge, built into the funding documents, to oppose prostitution and include a plan to aggressively attack prostitution. Remember the act of Congress is supposed to be about AIDs, but it was actually an worldwide attack on prostitution and remains so to this day. In 2005 an updated act required the same pledge from any organization receiving funds for academic research. Now the focus has shifted from AIDs to trafficking, but the goals remain the same - attack prostitution based on American sexual values often out of touch with the rest of the world. In June, 2013 the Supreme Court ruled this pledge unconstitutional - but only in the USA - http://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(13)61468-3.pdf - The requirement to aggressively attack prostitution remains in effect internationally. It is this that gives license to huge exaggeration about sex trafficking. It creates the social environment this issue lives in. It creates the market for inflammatory books, blogs, and movies. Keep this in mind in late June when the State Department's Trafficking in Persons Report dominates the news for a few days.

I compliment ThaiVisa. Any journalist or organization willing to provide any - ANY - honest point-of-view regarding sex tourism, sex work, or sex trafficking is okay by me and should be supported by us all.

It might be helpful to know that under the newly passed and signed International Megans Law, section seven, Thailand will soon have its arm twisted to create American-style lists of sex offenders. America will tell Thailand who America's sex offenders are by putting stamps on American passports. Thailand will be expected to reciprocate in kind. This man has been charged with "exposing himself" and on its face surely qualifies to be on a sex offender list. The globalization of American sex culture and criminal justice continues unabated. Good hearted people can become the biggest danger to freedom. Here is a different point of view regarding American sex offender lists and from this you can see the international danger that truly lurks behind the scenes of this cute story:

These idiots have no idea how much aid money US gave Thailand and continues to do so, not only that they help protect Thailand from threats and stability of the country.

These idiots have no idea how much aid money US gave Thailand and continues to do so...

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't have any idea either.

Posters in TV are rarely interested in tracking down facts to buttress their arguments. If you had googled, you would have discovered that in 2015 the US allocated a whopping $11 million dollars in aid to Thailand, which, given the size of the US economy, is about the equivalent of tossing a penny. Djibouti and Cape Verde received more, at $13 million and $14 million, respectively.

(Although some aid from various quarters of the US bureaucracy is unavailable, the $11 million figure is the best available data.)

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/politics/aid/140811/charts-us-foreign-aid-requests-2015

The US state department breaks down foreign aid into categories. None of the Thailand aid was in the "democracy, human rights and governance" category. Rather, all the aid was in the "peace and security" category. The largest part of the aid went for "stabilization operations and security sector reform". Obviously this is intended as anti-terrorism money.

Despite the fond delusions of many US citizens (often expressed in this forum), a huge amount of US aid has the purpose of increasing economic gains for the donor. In many cases, the aid is immediately turned around as purchases from US corporations.

I had a close friend (neighbor) in a country that will not be named. He was a long time USAID employee. He was close to tears one time when he told me about one of his projects. The small country was very isolated until Communism fell. For that reason the goat population was highly inbred and they needed new goat gene pools. USAID bought the goats. Of course they had to come from American goat farmers at outrageous prices. Then they flew the goats to XXX at great expense. About half the goats died on the plane trip. It would have been easy to buy goats from neighboring countries and delivery them by truck at less than a tenth the cost. But of course it is actually the American economy that is the real benefactor in all USAID "help" to developing countries. If there is a famine and people are dying food from America will drive in trucks past warehouses full of local food. Those warehouses may be full of food that could be bought locally if the people had the money to buy it. The result is that American food arrives too late to help and many people might die. The local food may rot in the warehouse with no buyers. This is called the issue of entitlement. There is plenty of food in the world but without a job or a healthy economy people stave because they don't have entitlement to food, in other words the money to buy it. Crazy! And people are supposed to love America because of our AID. Nope, it is a little more complicated than that!

This looks like a good place to repeat my Post Bag letter in todays' Bangkok Post:

Hypocrisy over freedom of speech

I can't think of anything more hypocritical that the United States Ambassador having anything to say about freedom of speech in Thailand as the BK Post reported on Friday in "US envoy rips freedom of speech curbs."

Lets talk about censorship. Another significant issue affecting Thai economy is sex trafficking. When President Bush declared War on Trafficking in front of the UN General Assembly in 2002 the tap was turned on to a seemingly unlimited supply of funds to attack not only trafficking but all prostitution even in the many countries where it is legal. In order to receive US funding for either humanitarian work or research recipients must sign a pledge as part of funding paperwork that they "do not promote, support, or advocate the legalization or practice of prostitution." Failure to "have a policy explicitly opposing prostitution and sex trafficking" will result in summary rejection of the funds. This censorship has resulted in deliberate skewing of all understanding of both trafficking and prostitution. Nevertheless there is significant research showing that legalizing or decriminalizing sex work can have very positive results.

As a token of cooperation with Thailand, maybe Ambassador Davies can join in opposition to this blatant US Government censorship which drives and controls only one understanding of this international issue.

JOHN KANE

none of the above makes any sense...at all.

missed the point where human trafficking has anything at all to do with legal prostitution, which can be controlled. Human trafficking is something altogether different. Without recognition of what human trafficking is, there is no talking.

Many countries (Amsterdam, Germany, Australia..etc)...have legal prostitution without human trafficking.

Yes, Mr Slippery Lobster, you did miss the point. The point is that the US Gov is deliberately conflating (confusing, combining) the two issues as if they are the same thing. As part of the process to do so they censor any NGO work or research that may provide positive information about prostitution or sex trafficking regardless of legality of prostitution. This is under attack as part of the US War on Trafficking which is not over yet. Any NGO or academic research with any US funding dare not say anything positive about or help any sex workers under threat of loosing their US funding, AKA their pay check. As I read this "Pledge" began with the 2003 President's Plan for AIDS Relief, AKA the Global AIDS Act. In 2007 the ban was extended to research. This is on pg 64 of Robert Weitzer's book "Legalizing Prostitution, From illicit vice to lawful business". Also in Melissa Ditmore's "Trafficking and prostitution reconsidered," article edited by Kempadoo in "Trafficking and Prostitution" 2012, pages 107-155. This censorship in the USA has been challenged in court but not internationally. My second quote is directly from the act as passed by Congress. Yes, sex trafficking and adult consenting prostitution are NOT the same thing but try telling that to GW Bush and his friends. We are living with his legacy. Thanks for giving me the excuse to explain further - -

This sounds exactly like the Mexican workers in poultry plants in the American midwest - exactly like there.

I wonder if America will pitch in with new demands for Thailand and other countries to solve this labor trafficking issue just like America HASN"T.

Can you give me more info?Maybe i will join))

Me to. I just took a couple of days in Siem Reap on my Honda CTX and want to go some where again soon before it starts to snow - or wait I forgot for a moment that I'm not in Cleveland anymore!

So, yes, more information on participating please.

Compared to Western girls of the same age, 17-18 year old Thai girls aren't as mature or experienced!

Me thinks you are a tad naive my friend...many young Thai women have been sexually active for years by the time they reach 18 years of age...and look forward to making money off of their ass-ets...

They are not interested in someone filtering out a particular age group...they have the prerogative of saying no...if they are not interested...

You may think you have the moral high ground...but your logic and facts are delusional...best to mind your own business...

No I'm not naïve

Speak to a "typical" 18 year old Thai girl and a "typical" 18 year old American, British or European girl.

Ask questions about their attitudes to sex, love, marriage and children.

The Thai girl will giggle uncontrollably on matters of sex while only demonstrating any vestige of maturity when it comes to family.

The Western girl will speak maturely on issues of romance, the need for condoms and the need for respect for her right to choose.

The old men here claiming that there is little distinction between Thai and relatively mature Western teenagers are the same ones who - in any other setting ( ie away from the back room at their favourite knock shop) will describe Thai girls as childish, immature, concerned only with consumer crap.

How is it that are they able to ascribe such diametrically-opposed attributes to the same people?

Because one set of attributes is being used to support their right to defile what are - mentally - little more than children.

Everywhere on this forum, there are anecdotes discussing what farangs see as the childishness of the Thai people and their apparent inability to take responsibility for what they do.

Mention sex however, and suddenly, 17-18 year old girls are highly-mature, fully-cognizant and able to fully comprehend the hornet's nest of emotional problems that could potentially arise from spreading their legs for a disgusting old man 40 years older than they are.

As I said earlier on in the thread, I didn't expect to receive a warm welcome on a forum of ageing sexpats who are here to exploit the locals even at the risk of doing serious emotional and mental harm to another young human being.

Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral

I live in a university dorm where students start school at 17 years old. I see very innocent looking girls running around here who look they would be American high school students. But a friend owns a local convenience store which has the obligatory condoms on the front counter. I was told they sell well and so do birth control pills kept behind the counter. I often wake up when I hear female students coming to their rooms at 3 or 4 am.

On the other hand that same school did some research with my help and discovered the average age sex workers in Nana Plaza lost their virginity was 17.6 years old and they were paid for sex for the first time on average at 23.1 years old. The vast majority, like 70% came from happy normal homes. All of this flies in the face of what those who are spreading around their moral shame want us to believe. I can refer you to quickly 7 or 8 websites, some for very ligitimate organizations, that make the claim that sex workers are paid for the first time at an average of 12 years old. The whole subject is rife with self serving baloney designed to keep traditional shame and morals in place for the control of women. Yes, to control women. Older women are the first t help.

Sometimes we all let our emotions and our prejudices get in the way of understanding that things are just different sometimes. I lived in Albania for three years. There were some nice bars but any single women who were with friends, but not fiancies, would start disappearing at about 9:30 to go home. For quite awhile I thought those were really "moral" women who were happy to be in their own bed at home by 10 pm. Only later did I discover that most serious dating took place after work where "meeting for a coffee" could mean anything from meeting for coffee to going straight to a short term hotel. We start to understand these kinds of things better when we are able to shuck off this talk about morals and exploiting and realize that sex is becoming accepted as simply another form of entertainment. Some money, no matter how it is given, is an equalizing factor often when there is an age difference, but in many other ways too. Hey but what do I know?

There are plenty of older women who would set the age that women must be for older men to be "with" Biblically as about 50 minimum and no younger. There are extreme feminists - Dworkin, MacKinnon, Farly, etc - who would say that no woman should resort to being with any man. So, it is a flexible question. There are men who point out that the new age of 18 being illegal as trafficking under UN definition is to high. Age 18 is illegal only because it is the age when first world children are required to stay in school. That is hardly practical for third world children who often can only afford to go as far as primary school and must get on with their lives in more traditional ways. What an amazing topic! How old must women be to be legal for an older man? Is no one asking how old or young must men be to be legal? No? Well, why not?

What first world country requires children to remain in school until age 18?

Certainly America, for one! In the USA that is a state issue, not federal so it varies by state. Young people can often drop out early, but the expectation and often the law too is to stay till 18 years old.

There are plenty of older women who would set the age that women must be for older men to be "with" Biblically as about 50 minimum and no younger. There are extreme feminists - Dworkin, MacKinnon, Farly, etc - who would say that no woman should resort to being with any man. So, it is a flexible question. There are men who point out that the new age of 18 being illegal as trafficking under UN definition is to high. Age 18 is illegal only because it is the age when first world children are required to stay in school. That is hardly practical for third world children who often can only afford to go as far as primary school and must get on with their lives in more traditional ways. What an amazing topic! How old must women be to be legal for an older man? Is no one asking how old or young must men be to be legal? No? Well, why not?

The child was British and abused in the UK. Get the story right. He wouldn't have been extradited and tried in the UK, if it occurred in Thailand.

Yes he could, if it occurred in Thailand. Under new trafficking laws you can be arrested at the border of your home country, usually the USA but Britain too, if you committed a sex crime in another country. I suppose if it were serious enough you could be extradited. There are examples of 17 and 18 year old boys having a sexual relationships in a foreign country with a willing girl under 18 in that country and the boy is arrested when they return home. This requires that the local country learn about this relationship and notify the US government, usually the embassy, about it. This could play out if, for example, they were caught having sex in a public place, for example on the beach. This has nothing to do with whether both parties are over the age of consent in that country. Sex with a girl under 18 is automatically "trafficking" per the UN definition. Crazy but true! And we all know how the USA is on its big white horse to attack trafficking everywhere especially if those laws can be used to also attack prostitution.