Loeilad

4 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I have stated that I come from a working class family, i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free. I presume you meant 'apply the correct upper-class accent when writing it, you are free to imagine whatever accent you wish when reading it. No need to be aggressive.

" i don't have a 'posh' accent but it is, I hope, accent free." - QED - this person has not even a basic idea about the English language, yet feels he can make  "pronouncements" on it

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, i agree, but i have certain standards of behaviour and i stick to them. I taught myself German 40 odd years ago with a girlfriend who spoke only high German (we lived in Bavaria) and a copy of 'The Pate ' in German. It took me several years to appreciate the soft beauty of the Bavarian dialect, i still have a slight Bavarian accent when i speak high German, but i frowned upon anyone who could only speak the dialect, someone only speaking Bavarian couldn't communicate with another German living in Hamburg only speaking platt deutsch. Language is about communicating and the more beautiful a language is the better the experience. It is also an important marker for their standard of education,although not always, and social standing, i come from a working class family but my parents were insistent that we spoke the 'queens English' free of accent, that isn't easy living in London. I find speaking to a 'chav' distressing and so i avoid it.

pretty obvious i'd say - and indicative of someone who would rather make assumptions and subjective comments than display any knowledge of English language or learning language - remember the plural of anecdote is not data.

12 hours ago, soalbundy said:

for me it has to do with standards, i wouldn't hold a conversation willingly with someone who cant speak properly, it shows a lack of self respect, when someone uses the 'word' innit i shut down.

There are several billion English speaking people who don't agree with you and might well consider you to be laughably out of touch.

Surely this is a signal that Thailand (and ASEAN) need to reduced their protective tariffs and allow the free movement of goods....and people?

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Oxford living dictionary. I sat there with my mouth open in horror, i didn't realize that standards had fallen so low. He also ordered a bottle of 'woh er' i had to translate to the waitress that he meant water, will we find woh er in the dictionary soon ? Ali G is alive and well

Nothing to do with "standards" and you are referring to the glottal stop and well known  characteristic of pronunciation especially in British English.

Merry Brexit Christmas to you all!......

Did you vote to leave? Then why not rejoice in the fallout this winter with the brand new... 

NOW THAT'S WHAT I CALL BREXIT CHRISTMAS!!!

...an incredible double CD compilation packed with all of your festive Brexit favourites, including…

On 12/6/2016 at 3:30 PM, GAZZPA said:

What? There are no versions of English. English is English. There are some slight differences on some words and some local slang but mostly it is purely accent, nothing more.

 

From what I observe thai people have a better grasp then the press would have you believe. Of course if you speak too fast then it can be a problem for some but generally its ok for basic things everyday.

 

However, neighbouring countries such as Singapore, Malaysia and particularly the Philippines are light years away with English language skills.

 

 

 

 

I think this statement shows a marked lack of prior research - the comments display a profound lack of knowledge of the English language and a large use of assumption.

23 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Bang on comment on the French part. Totally true! Their accent is perfect. Even my wife, who knows a few words here and there, pronounces them almost like a native-speaker. It is amazing. 

 

So, we do agree that the lack of a reliable spelling for the schwa in English, along with the irregular stresses, which the presence of the schwa would help indicating, is the problem. They can learn languages. They cannot learn a language that does not have a decent spelling system. The evidence is incontrovertible. I have posted the evidence. I have yet to have ONE English-speaker reply to my post saying. Yes, it is true that the English spelling system is a mess and we should fix it. NOT ONE! As I say, we can complain about the Thais all we want, we are part of the problem too and in some ways we are similarly lacking in transparency and maturity. There is still time before this threat closes to have one courageous English-speaker admit that the English spelling system is flawed and it needs to be fixed. Come on! It is not so bad! It is not you, your fault,...

I don't think that spelling is a huge problem for Thais....I don't agree that the language is a mess - I think this is part of the fluidity and flexibility of english that the spelling has arisen out of multiple sources, linguistic and environmental. It should also be pointed out that attempts to "make sense" of English spelling have usually fallen flat on their face.

Have you read "Spell it out" by David Crystal?

I think rhythm and stress present a problem just as tone does for English speakers learning Thai.

IA thai speaker may say a totally correct English word to me, but if the stress is wrong, I simply "can't" hear it. same goes for English speakers trying to speak tonal languages.

 I should mention that Thai is not considered to be 100% syllable timed, but it helps English learners to think this.

the schwa - is a most wonderful noise made by English speakers and teachers don't seen to spend much time on it - which is building up trouble for later.....

the number of times I've heard teachers mispronouncing vowels to a class because they fail to understand the use of schwa.

the indefinite article is schwa is it not" yet how many teachers pronounce it as "AY" in front of a class.

Ask yourself how many syllables in "dictionary"?....my Dad would have said 5...I say 3

A problem with a lot of TEFL teachers is that they really don't understand their own language - the one they are teaching........they learn through experience what "works" and what doesn't but few actually consider the why's and wherefore's of what they are teaching.

Thai people   can be phenomenally parochial in outlook - hence the anecdote about dubbed movies - and Thai is a syllable-timed, tonal language where all the syllables tend to be the same length, English is rhythmic, stress-timed language and relying heavily on syllable stress......(have you ever heard a Thai person speak French, which is predominantly syllable-timed? Their pronunciation is fantastic, because it is much more akin to Thai in the way it is spoken.

Trying to teach thais stress-timed language is a problem in itself - you have to get them to forget about tone for a start.

Their

There

They're

These words are pronounced exactly the same in English, but I've heard teachers say the 3 words and their Thai students hear three DIFFERENT words...Why? because the teacher's tone changed to emphasise these words were the same.He was using an ascending set of tones, but simply didn't realise

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

If you're not writing to me -- don't use the "Quote" button.

I'm not writing to jpinx, but I thought I'd use his post as an example of how people seem to misunderstand the use of quotations in a discussion. it says "quote" not "reply".

3 hours ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

I think that there are many factors at work explaining how some Thais struggle to master English.

 

1. It is not their first language.
2. The fear of losing face (especially when speaking) is making learning almost impossible. Practice makes perfect and if you don't practice, learning is not likely to occur much. (My wife knows a friend who is a Thai English teacher. I have met her a few times in the past. She hardly speaks English when we are in mixed company. In fact, last time, when on the spur of a moment, my wife invited her to eat for her BD, the second sentence was: "So, have you learned Thai yet?" The rest of the dinner took place in Thai, unless I interjected with a few questions in English, to wish she replied in English, but very succinctly.)
3. A few posters mentioned that there is this deep-seeded notion that foreigners are idiots. Some of us tend to act in a manner that Thai consider dishonorable (raising our voice,...). Whether it is a clever way to save face or not, I think many Thais believe the propaganda, especially the ones who don't speak English. It is true that --on the face of it-- people who do not speak any language might be easily perceived as being stupid, as it might be self-evident to THEM that we cannot even speak. We also look silly when we do not seem to get things that are so easy for them to get. Most of them might not have had to learn another language as well, which reduces understanding and empathy.
4. As others have pointed, subtitling movies is not the norm in Thailand. This would help, although that does create some problems. See next point.
5. English has one of the worst phonemic systems of all western languages as explained here, which has the pernicious effect of making spelling excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focused too much (or at all) on speaking mastery or of making pronouncing excruciatingly difficult to master/attain if one focuses too much (or at all) on writing mastery (spelling and grammar). As long as Commonwealth speakers do not come to terms with the obvious (see comment with data to prove the point), do not be surprise that native-speakers or not will struggle to learn English. It is hard to fault Thais (anyone really) when no one (especially the ones who should) is taking responsibility for fixing the underlying problem. 
6. A few posters made the comment that the Filipinos (to name one group) seem to be quite proficient in English (as a nation). I have not been there, but I know quite a bit of Filipinos in my country (an English country) and it is true that there fluency (accent and use of English) was better than the average Thais. I am comparing apples and oranges, if I compare local Thais with Filipinos living overseas. I wonder why that is. I could hypothesize that (and forgive me if this was replied to and I missed it) there is a rather large diaspora of Filipinos in English speaking countries. I suspect they go it and others get sponsored. I wonder if not most of the Filipino English-teachers haven't got their training (as it were) in English-speaking countries. Is it that the Filipinos do not have that culture of losing face or not to the degree that the Thais have it? Is the educational system different? Are they spending more time on speaking/listening activities in classes? Are the Filipinos seeing the advantages of learning English (so that they can make good money overseas)? (Not many Thais have that chance, unless you come from a wealthy family, it seems, even, in some countries, you have a house under your name, unless you are willing to part with your kids, which is often one of the conditions for getting a visa.) Tagalog has integrated 1500 or so English words in its 30,000 words (root words) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_loanwords_in_Tagalog#Spanish). There are 5000 words that are of Spanish origin. When one realizes that about 50% of English words are Latin/French, it might given the Filipinos an edge that the Thai don't have. In other words, comparing is not easy.
7. There might be too much teaching of the writing code by Thai teachers in regular public schools.
8. There might be a general reluctance or a clever strategy from the establishment to keep the system as is, giving the Thais who can learn English abroad or who can go to international schools an incredible advantage.
9. There are many countries where many speakers struggle with English pronunciation. Have you ever heard a French-speaker speaking English lately? An Italian? Spanish? Still, cross the border to Belgium and most Belgians, IF they are from Brussels and the north, have a much better English accent. That is not because there are smarter. We all know that speakers of Germanic languages like Dutch and German have excellent command of English as well. It is true that most of the Dutch teachers in Belgium would be quite good at teaching English, with the accent to match.

Did I miss any points mentioned? I will update or make another post if need be.

 

Re 4 - I was talking to a Thai university student a few years back about visiting America...I pointed out that whereas in Thailand you can meet a lot of people who understand a bit of English, virtually no-one in the USA would speak Thai.  this seemed to surprise him as so many Americans in the movies spoke such good Thai.

^ - Philippines - as Philippines was both a Spanish and American colony there is a centuries long tradition of learning western Language and Tagalog has western phrases in it.

many Asians find learning Thai much easier than westerners because there are commonalities....its like a westerner learning Spanish, which is reputedly the easiest language in world to learn.....however Spanish speakers seem to have a lot of trouble learning English in Europe.

It is not "third world" it is a sign of Thailand's development. 

A clearly identified sign that a country is "developed" is the changing attitude to telephone and power cables; in a developing country they are a clear sign of progress, proudly showing to all that an area now has "electric",  "phone" etc., but as a country develops the sights lose their novelty and become regarded as both ugly and a nuisance.

It is clear from this article and a plethora of others that Thailand is now entering the "developed" era.

On 12/7/2016 at 6:56 AM, Estrada said:

Based on your poor grammar and misspelling of the subject word "Abysmal" as "Absymal", I suggest you find a better English language school to teach you English. I hope that you are not an English Language Teacher as "If the teachers haven't mastered the language, then how are they expected to teach their students?!?!"

It's difficult to respect the opinion of someone who can't tell the difference between and typo and a spelling mistake.

One of the great things about English, and something that makes it very difficult for foreigners to fully master is the nuance, subtlety and shades of meaning and implication that words carry.

2 words that come to mind

These words can often backfire in the hands of the "bootless and unhorsed"

- e.g. ......

"common" when used to deride another person - actually reflects more on the person using the word than any insult or derogation intended by that speaker.

"pompous" - used often on TV in place of argument, usually by someone who finds themself intellectually out of their depth

More silly photos from the Police station

why is it that the police always present their case - or several versions of it to the press

1 - Before the investigation is complete

2 - before it goes to court?

6 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

 

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

Some people need to forget what they were erroneously taught at prep school and re-assess their  perception of their own knowledge of English before criticising the language.

And you could look at this....

" perfectly respectable writers employ this disputed usage, and have done since Anglo-Saxon times."

"You could also refer to the fact that you’re in very good company (examples can be found in the work of writers such as Susan Sontag, Vladimir Nabokov, Kingsley Amis, P.G. Wodehouse, and Albert Einstein) and that highly respected grammar and usage guides (such as Fowler and Garner) all agree that it’s a perfectly acceptable practice."

So…can we start a sentence with and?

6 hours ago, William C F Pierce said:

 

Despite what you think, you should try reading the daily UK news papers. There is not one editor that does their job of editing mistakes or making sure the articles are up to standard. As children grow up they read their parents newspapers and start to learn the same mistakes. International reports continuously prove the UK is declining in basic education compared to other countries. Even Thai English language newspapers frequently commit the same mistakes as English newspapers. The number of times the word "and" is used to wrongly start a paragraph in a newspaper is indefensible. The word has a meaning of in addition to one or more items before it in  the same sentence followed by the final item, with no comma before the word "and". SUCH AS:  Red, green, blue, puple, black and white were the colours of the exhibition painting. I suggest you give a reason to qualify the statement you have made.

I take it you're not a fan of James Joyce, then?

2 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

Widebrows wonder whether Clever Trevor's clever
Either have they got, nor neither haven't not
Got no right to make a clot out of Trevor

 

Brilliant post, thanks...

Ian Dury was a brilliant wordsmith and had an outstanding mastery of the English language - it is people like him who show what the language is capable of doing.

Hoist on one's own protectionist petard?

5 hours ago, JAG said:

 

In the British Army the ability to speak (and write) clear concise and accurate English is an absolute requirement for officers. It is needed to issue clear unequivocal instructions and pass accurate information, and in the stress of battle can be a "life saver". It is taught, and assessed in your professional education - hence the often mocked "Sandhurst accent", (an accent probably regarded as anachronistic in today's diverse BBC)!

I have to say that I wasn't aware that the British Army had a PR department as such. Some "Staff jobs" required interaction with the media, ( limited training is given for that), and specific operations and deployments would lead to the creation of Media Ops Teams, largely staffed by called up reservists with relevant civilian experience. Such PR staff as there are are civilians employed as such by the MOD. Nor have I ever come across a "divisional radio station", although overseas garrisons are served by the "British Forces Broadcasting Service" (BFBS), again staffed and run by civilians employed by the MOD.

 

I think the British army are the last one would listen to regarding education - I have "friends" (school chums) who went through Sandhurst and cae out with nothing more than the funny voice - they were still two short planks, but now they were Captain two short planks.

38 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

In general life it really doesn't matter if the grammar is incorrect.

 

It does however matter if foreign students are taught incorrectly as per the simple sentences in the OP.

 

 

When you learn a language you learn how to deduct what is right - I think that as said there was some deduction but the wrong answer arrived at...

50 minutes ago, car720 said:

 

Does it matter if they are fake or not?

These days universities in the west are all charging huge sums of money for a genuine degree that is in fact a fake by its very nature.  It simply bears a legitimate seal.

For instance, my daughter has just finished a 4 year degree in accounting at a Queensland university which cost X dollars whilst my Chinese step-daughter has been offered the same degree as a South Australian university which runs for only 2 years and cost 3 times X dollars.

The Australian government has even publicly stated that they cannot afford to lose this multi billion dollar export to Asia.

What my step daughter learns in Australia will of course be useless (read fake) in China but it will qualify her for a high paying job because she holds a degree (read fake) from a foreign university.

Thailand is no different.  All they do is cut out the Australian middle man.  Rather enterprising one could say.

di you go to University? 

I also think that holding up Australia to make a  point is a bit shakey - I went to Uni both in UK and Oz 

1 hour ago, Ajahnski said:

You are correct.  Well is proper English.  However, the language changes over time and there is increasing backlash against rules like this that come of as pretentious.  (I haven't seen any disagreement on this particular rule, but, for example, even the legal writing manual that I use as my primary grammar guide roundly condemns the 'never end a sentence with a preposition' rule.

Well is an adverb - originally and good is an adjective.....except we chose quite legitimately not to use those words in that way all the time....

explain "I am well". or  "Quick, come here"

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I liked your post very much however i feel, like the correct matching of colours, there is a natural beauty in a language when it is spoken correctly (correctly is more than mainstream or common usage) consider Richard Burton's rendition of reading the Letter reporting the defeat of the British forces at Natal at the beginning of the film 'Zulu' and compare that with the way a Londoner of today would freely describe the event, even the most poorly educated cockney could appreciate the beauty of Burton's rendition, it is beautiful because it has a feel of correctness about it, why do for instance the colours pink and grey go so well together, no reason, it just looks correct. As well as appreciating the English language i can also delight in well spoken formal German, even the well spoken dialect Bavarian, they all have their own natural order which sounds correct no matter how much they may 'evolve' on the street. In my opinion the English language hasn't evolved so much as degenerated. One can express oneself just as exactly in a crude manner as in a 'correct' manner of course but as Oscar Wilde once said, 'A man who calls a spade a spade should be made to use one

Beauty is largely subjective - I think the popularity of English as an international language is down to convenience and the USA's grip on the world economy.

I am firmly of the opinion that EL has EVOLVED - in fact I could spend a lot of time deconstructing that Burton speech which of course is in a Welsh accent, but if you look at how pop music is totally dominated by English you can see how the language is eminently suited to poetry and lyrics. None of the "old stuff" (burton, which is audio) and Shalespseare (which is written) is lost - it is still there and in the bank as it were but because of its flexibility for so many uses EL is growing in popularity and influence (BTW German is the second biggest alnguage in science - but still a long way behind English. 

Recently sited problem with Thai research was that although Thailand does more scientific research than its neighbours there is too little satisfactorily translated and published in English - as this is the standard science language these days.

the wonderful thing about English is that if you need a new word, you can make it....Shakespeare is credited with about 5000 new words, but things like "bling" "Selfie" all meet a need as did that wonderful Aerican invention "commuter" o r the new usage of "hotel" these are not degradation they are meeting a need.

as for grammar...well the EL has been degrading Grammar since Anglo-Saxon times - which is one of the reasons it is so easy to use on a basic level - few declensions cases or paricles and participles. One of the most difficult things for ESL learners is not as most suggest the tenses but prepositions 

"Fake diplomas and degrees touted openly online"

It is about fake degrees etc available online - and this is particularly prevalent in Thailand - but it is not just Thai people who take advantage of this it is foreigners as well - at least part of the reason for this is the authorities and employers do not take the problem seriously.