Wilson Smith

1 minute ago, Rugon said:

Quite right. What do you mean by REAL alcoholic? You either are or aren't.

The point is, which step talks about "kicking" someone out?

Ok so let me guess that you are referring  "we" in tradition 2, the group conscience. Lets read the complete tradition 

For our group purpose there is but one ultimate authority—a loving God as He may express Himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

Some how to do not envision a loving God expressing the word "kick out" Sounds like your personal fear issue. Read tradition 3 in the 12x12.

Plus there all ready 14 pages discussed here.

2 minutes ago, Rugon said:

We can't kick ANY alcoholic out, but we can kick non-alcoholics out, obviously.

You sound like a beacon of happiness. Read the text, its an inward journey, the problem is not outside! 

14 hours ago, mogandave said:

 

Yes, but we reserve the right to kick them out if the don’t appear to be the “right” kind of alcoholic.

 

Not sure if your comment is meant to be sarcastic or you have missed the whole point of the AA movement. 

4 hours ago, Rugon said:

There are many nuts in AA and especially in Thailand.

The AA meeting will be a representation of the community it is in. As many "nuts" or not "nuts" some how they are stay sober which generally makes things a lot better then if they were drinking. 

42 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Quick update, had my first beers in 44 days last night & feel bloody awful (hangover) this morning.

 

Never my intention to become a non-drinker, but the 6 weeks not drinking has given me the opportunity to look at my non-social drinking habits (E.g. Bottle of wine or 2 when home alone) & make some adjustments.

 

Have to say I'm eating a lot more though so will have to get back on the booze before I get too fat (am semi-joking, I do find myself eating a lot more now but not as bad as when I stopped smoking & ballooned to 100KG)

 

I hope the hangover is not to bad, I sure do not miss those. I had quit drinking many times only to start again for whatever reason. After a long pattern of stopping and starting I learned it was hard to stay stopped, a friend would visit, I had a bad day, something good would happen to celebrate and I would make an exception to why I could have just one night. Once I got into this battle I enjoyed my drinking a lot less and never liked the idea of having to stop forever. 

On 11/3/2018 at 3:01 PM, edwardandtubs said:

 

Well, you're 1M baht down and the only benefit is you avoid the need for annual renewals. But those renewals are a very minor inconvenience so it's a no-brainier really unless 1M baht really means nothing to you.

since you have to purchase a new project, you are paying "full retail", which in your words is really throwing money away.

Can be done but must be canceled and applied for new one on the same day. If you do the 7 day extension the B visa is voided and then you will have to leave and enter again for sure. 

if you have any trouble staying stop please contact me, I stop a while ago and it was the best thing I could do. Although it was tough in the beginning. I would be happy to share some tips that worked for me.

15 hours ago, stevenl said:

As you said already, people will come here and say 'not true'.

Here is one, what you're saying is not true and you're causing panic for no reason.

I am saying the same as his wife's HR is saying. The HR probably spoke their visa agency and he was told what is being enforced now. Perhaps in the past this was not enforced this way. In the past the extension would expire and that would be it but now it is not like that. If you look at it at face value it is an overstay. The visa is automatically canceled when the wp is canceled however it is up to the person or company to get the void stamp on the extension from immigration and leave the country. I am just stating what I am seeing enforced now.  

4 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The only way a person could be fined for an overstay would be if they had a permit to say from an entry or extension of stay that had already expired. Leaving the the country voids out any previous permit to stay.

Ubonjoe I read all of your advice because I know you are very actuate with all. This person stated his wp was canceled 3 months ago and he has been living in Thailand on this extension.  My experience this period will catch up with him if he tries to extend another visa whether the old extension expires or not. I believe his wife's HR is advising him the same.  

2 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The only reports I have seen is when a person was trying to apply for another extension based upon working or teaching and the previous extension had not been formally canceled before leaving the country.

If a person has already left the country and they re-entered the country without using a re-entry permit that would void the extension and their would be no overstay since that person got a new permit to stay from a visa or visa exempt entry.

Only if a person stayed in the country without canceling the extension could there be an overstay fine when a person went to immigration to get something done.

Well it sounds like that is what the person did. So he can try to re-enter without the reentry stamp but that does not cover the gap from when the person exited and the wp was canceled. My experience is that you cannot escape the gap. It will be discovered when you "try to get something done". To me you are skating on a blacklist that may only be able to escape by a payment and currently there are "No Tip" signs up.

13 hours ago, elviajero said:

Do not employ a lawyer and do not go anywhere near immigration.

 

As you are aware you’re extension should have been cancelled. If you leave the country as planned the extension will expire when you’re out of the country and that is the end of your problem.

 

Immigration have no way of knowing your job/WP has ended. If you tell them now they will cancel the extension and you’ll have to leave the country. They could (unlikely) cancel it from the date your job/WP ended in which case you would be on overstay, have to pay 20K and potentially receive a ban.

 

Your best plan is to leave as planned, or before, and re-enter after the extension has expired.

 

I guess you take a chance like that and find out when you try to extend that they will not extend until there is a void stamp put on the old extension (valid or expired). Then when you try to void the stamp they make you pay 20K and blacklist you. I guess it is worth a shot if you are a gambling man.   

6 minutes ago, CJansen1992 said:

Thanks. I understand the situation I'm in is a bit messed up. Really don't know what to do, because if I go to immigration now I technically have already "overstayed" a little more than 90 days. 
 

Would a lawyer be able to help? And if so, any recommendations for a good one?

The best advice would be to go to immigration with your old company or if you have to alone and attempt to cancel the visa (need the cancel stamp). Pay the fine (20K and leave. If you wait longer there could the blacklist duration will get longer. If it is "just" a bit over 90 days perhaps they will cut you a break. Depending on that result you can re-enter.

20 minutes ago, stevenl said:

His stay was based on extension not visa.

I am sorry about terminology. His extension was suppose to be canceled and it wasn't and he stayed and would like to stay again. What I am saying it will catch up to him when attempts to apply for another extension whether his old extension has expired or not. Basically what his wife's HR is telling him.      

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

And why do you think this?

I know it because this is the current enforcement. This would include people who left the country about the same time of the wp canceled (without the visa being canceled) and the visa expiring while outside and then applying for a extenuation at a later time. In this case the person stayed here the whole time, his visa was based on employment which was canceled. I am sure I will hear some not trues here however he is going to have an issue and will need some help for sure.    

You will have to pay an overstay from when you wp was canceled until you cancel your old visa. The embassy will give you an O visa but when you go to extend they will see you did not cancel the visa. They will make you cancel the visa and pay the fine. All other overstay penalties apply so if your overstay is over a year you will be blacklist. Maybe something could be worked out but it is a big maybe.

6 minutes ago, wgdanson said:

No they are not. You can keep them in a Foreign Currency Account in GBP or USD or Euro.

Foreign currency accounts are a headache and costly if you attempt to use for any normal type of banking. (so I have been told). As well either way you are forced to use a Thai buniess that further helps the economy that people are currently not using.

Perhaps the original idea of the 800K and the 65K a month is that these funds are forced to buy Baht (on top of many other reasons). And the funds transferred in were never check is a loophole that is being closed.

23 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

My big book must be a different version to yours. The spiritual nature is mentioned throughout the book. There is even more in the 12 x 12.

 

BB p. 14-5 --
    My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that.

 

BB p. 42-3 -- (attitude of open mindedness)
    Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully. Though I had been only a nominal churchman, their proposals were not, intellectually, hard to swallow. But the program of action, though entirely sensible, was pretty drastic. It meant I would have to throw several lifelong conceptions out of the window. That was not easy. But the moment I made up my mind to go through with the process, I had the curious feeling that my alcoholic condition was relieved, as in fact it proved to be.
    Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems. I have since been brought into a way of living infinitely more satisfying and, I hope, more useful than the life I lived before. My old manner of life was by no means a bad one, but I would not exchange its best moments for the worst I have now. I would not go back to it even if I could.

 

BB p. 47 -- (willingness is spiritual cornerstone)
    We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.
    That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe.

 

BB p. 60 --
    Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

 

BB p. 79 --
    Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.
    Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit.

 

BB p. 83 --
    Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.
    The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. Unless ones family expresses a desire to live upon spiritual principles we think we ought not to urge them. We should not talk incessantly to them about spiritual matters. They will change in time. Our behavior will convince them more than our words.

 

BB p. 87 --
    We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Many of us have wasted a lot of time doing that and it doesn't work. You can easily see why.
    If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from ones priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.

 

BB p. 98 --
    It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give. That often makes the difference between failure and success. The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God. He clamors for this or that, claiming he cannot master alcohol until his material needs are cared for. Nonsense. Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth: Job or no job--wife or no wife--we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.
    Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house.
    Now, the domestic problem: There may be divorce, separation, or just strained relations. When your prospect has made such reparation as he can to his family, and has thoroughly explained to them the new principles by which he is living, he should proceed to put those principles into action at home.

 

BB p. 116-7 -- (trust God)
    There is another paralyzing fear. You may be afraid your husband will lose his position; you are thinking of the disgrace and hard times which will befall you and the children. This experience may come to you. Or you may already have had it several times. Should it happen again, regard it in a different light. Maybe it will prove a blessing! It may convince your husband he wants to stop drinking forever. And now you know that he can stop if he will! Time after time, this apparent calamity has been a boon to us, for it opened up a path which led to the discovery of God.
    We have elsewhere remarked how much better life is when lived on a spiritual plane. If God can solve the age-old riddle of alcoholism, He can solve your problems too. We wives found that, like everybody else, we were afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity and all the things which go to make up the self-centered person; and we were not above selfishness or dishonesty. As our husbands began to apply spiritual principles in their lives, we began to see the desirability of doing so too.
    At first, some of us did not believe we needed this help. We thought, on the whole, we were pretty good women, capable of being nicer if our husbands stopped drinking. But it was a silly idea that we were too good to need God. Now we try to put spiritual principles to work in every department of our lives. When we do that, we find it solves our problems too; the ensuing lack of fear, worry and hurt feelings is a wonderful thing.

 

BB p. 130 -- (God conscious but feet on the ground)
    Those of us who have spent much time in the world of spiritual make-believe have eventually seen the childishness of it. This dream world has been replaced by a great sense of purpose, accompanied by a growing consciousness of the power of God in our lives. We have come to believe He would like us to keep our heads in the clouds with Him, but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth. That is where our fellow travelers are, and that is where our work must be done. These are the realities for us. We have found nothing incompatible between a powerful spiritual experience and a life of sane and happy usefulness.
    One more suggestion: Whether the family has spiritual convictions or not, they may do well to examine the principles by which the alcoholic member is trying to live. They can hardly fail to approve these simple principles, though the head of the house still fails somewhat in practicing them.

---

BB p. 570 --
 Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial. We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
    which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to
    keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt
    prior to investigation."
         --Herbert Spencer  

and don't forget (which is the closing summery of the whole book, the ending):

page 164 Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us. Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you--until then.

22 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

How long one has been sober has nothing to do with actual knowledge of the AA program. Are you just saying I'm confused to get an explanation rather than just ask me?

 

I am 24 years sober and have had 3 Big Book sponsors, one who is a well known circuit speaker and Big Book teacher. He gives well attended seminars on the program as illustrated in the Big Book. Sir, I am not confused, you are simply think you know for certain something that is just not completely accurate.

 

Show me where in the literature it goes into depth about the spiritual nature of the disease. Sure it is also a spiritual problem BUT THE MAIN problem is the mental obsession, then the allergy of the body (which cannot be cured or recovered using the program) That is why real alcoholics must abstain if they want recovery.

 

I only see it in one place mentioned briefly (in the 4th step) where the alcoholism is talked about as a spiritual problem. If the Big Book authors wanted to make this a point it would be talked about in as much or greater detail than the two fold disease of alcoholism that the first 3rd of the book covers. There is an entire chapter in the book called "More About Alcoholism" that goes into great detail including stories illustrating the mental obsession portion of the disease. I am not confused, sorry to say but I'm certain you are basically inaccurate here and holding onto something you think is correct that you probably repeat at a lot of meetings.

 

One thing I have learned. It's not what I think I know that can causes me trouble. It's what I know for certain that just ain't so that will get me every time.

 

Page 23 there is a solution:

These observations would be academic and point­

less if our friend never took the first drink, thereby

setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the

main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind,

rather than in his body.

 

And because you have this qualification, does this mean someone in AA has appointed you to some type of authority to decides who qualifies to be in an AA meeting despite them identifying that they are an alcoholic? There are no leaders, back of bus Bozo!  

You can quote until the cows come home. 

Read the only thing that matters on the topic.

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out." 

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

On 10/14/2018 at 8:33 AM, likerdup1 said:

The long form of the third tradition helps with this. The fellowship of AA ought to be for all who are seeking recovery from alcoholism. Unfortunately the fellowship in some meetings get people with all kinds of problems mainly because, in my opinion, a lot of rehabs tell people with other problems: Hey if you can't find an SLA or GA, or CA meeting in your area just go to AA!

 

This is an issue because it takes away from singleness of purpose and makes it really hard for a real alcoholic to identify if people are sharing about gambling, drug addition or other war stores that ARE not about how the two fold disease of alcoholism manifest in their lives.

 

We have guys in Pattaya that go to meetings who have stayed sober for a long time on NO steps and come in talking on and on about sex addiction or drug addiction. That does little to help A REAL alcoholic who walks into his or her first AA meeting. It only creates confusion. There are quite a few men in AA here in Thailand that go just for the social aspect and seem to have forgotten that AA is for people who want recovery from alcoholism. There could be someone (in fact there should be a lot more people) walking in the doors looking for help from alcoholism and WE NEED to be prepared to help these people AS THE BOOK outlines. Help them identify first if the are alcoholic then present them with the spiritual tools (the steps)

Luckily AA does not care about your opinion or your judgement on others who attend the meeting.  

Attempting to use "parts" of the literature as a weapon. Why don't you quote the full writing. Tradition 3 has a very painful history and in the end it was settled.

" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out." 

The next paragraph delves into the fear - "isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant."

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out." 

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?" 

31 minutes ago, hyku1147 said:

Closed meetings are for alcoholics only.

 

And an Alcoholic is anyone who states they are an Alcoholic. 

I thought it was 800K, is it now 900K?

On 10/6/2018 at 12:35 AM, MrPatrickThai said:

It's illegal, of course people would mind as it could get the meeting closed down.

Again it is an outside issue. The group can decide what they want to do and pay the price for it. As it says in tradition one and tradition four, "Those who look closely soon have the key to this strange paradox. The A.A. member has to conform to the principles of recovery. His life actually depends upon obedience to spiritual principles. If he deviates too far, the penalty is sure and swift; he sickens and dies." this apply for the group and the individual. The group as the right to be wrong (tradition 4).

So AA does not tell anyone they MUST or CANNOT so something. 

On 9/27/2018 at 8:41 AM, mogandave said:

That would be up to the group. Again AA itself has no opinion. We also are supposed to move away from controversy but yet you bring up a hypothetical. For what? To break tradition 1, unity! We have a primary purpose stay sober and help others and you seem to miss the point. Be in the solution, not the problem! 

Some meetings have smoke-breaks. If some AA members were smoking grass during an AA meeting smoke-break, you’d think nothing of it, correct?

An outside issue as it were....