DineshR

Hello, ( A long read.) I am a resident of Thailand since I am in Thailand exceeding 180 days per year and hence subject to taxation on income earned abroad that is brought into Thailand. For my specific situation, I am fully retired and have no income from any type of employment either in Thailand or anywhere else in the world. But I do have income from investments such as interest and dividends. That said, my primary source of funds brought into Thailand is a combination of social security and annuities. I thought I would read up on the actual text of the US-Thai dual taxation treaty and see if I would be subject to tax as per that agreement for the type of funds that I bring into the country. So here's a summary of what that agreement states in so far as it relates to my particular situation. Here's a link to the text of the full treaty - https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf Would appreciate your thoughts on this. A. This Convention shall apply to persons who are residents of one or both of the Contracting States, except as otherwise provided in the Convention. B. definition - the terms "a Contracting State" and "the other Contracting State" mean the United States or Thailand, as the context requires; C. Residence definition 1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "resident of a Contracting State" means any person who, under the laws of that State, is liable to tax therein by reason of his domicile, residence, citizenship, place of management, place of incorporation, or any other criterion of a similar nature. The term also includes that State and any political subdivision or local authority thereof. The term, however, does not include any person who is liable to tax in that State in respect only of income from sources in that State. For purposes of this paragraph, an individual who is not a resident of Thailand under this paragraph, and who is a United States citizen or an alien admitted to the United States for permanent residence (a "green card" holder) is a resident of the United States only if the individual has a substantial presence, permanent home or habitual abode in the United States. If such individual is a resident of Thailand under this paragraph, he shall be considered a resident of both Contracting States and his residence for purposes of the Convention shall be determined under paragraph 2. 2. Where by reason of the provisions of paragraph 1, an individual is a resident of both Contracting States, then his status shall be determined as follows: a) he shall be deemed to be a resident of the State in which he has a permanent home available to him; if he has a permanent home available to him in both States, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the State with which his personal and economic relations are closer (center of vital interests); b) if the State in which he has his center of vital interests cannot be determined, or if he does not have a permanent home available to him in either State, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the State in which he has an habitual abode; c) if he has an habitual abode in both States or in neither of them, he shall be deemed to be a resident of the State of which he is a national; d) if he is a national of both States or of neither of them, the competent authorities of the Contracting States shall settle the question by mutual agreement. Per the definition above - someone like me is considered a resident of both contracting parties (last line of para 1) but it is modified by para 2 as my permanent home is in Thailand and hence I am deemed a resident of Thailand per this treaty. D. What's taxable - 1. Dividends paid by a company which is a resident of a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State may be taxed in that other State. 2. Interest arising in a Contracting State and paid to a resident of the other Contracting State may be taxed in that other State. 3. Pensions and Social Security Payments a. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State. The reference to Government service states that a US Government/State/Locality pension is not taxable in Thailand, unless the US citizen is also a Thai citizen - then, it's only taxable in Thailand - my read. See the full text in my link. b. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (a) above, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State. c. Annuities derived and beneficially owned by a resident of a Contracting State shall be taxable only in that State. The term “annuities” as used in this paragraph means a stated sum paid periodically at stated times during a specified number of years, under an obligation to make the payments in return for adequate and full consideration (other than services rendered). My read - Dividends and interest are taxable in Thailand but pensions (with the exception of government pensions paid to a Thai citizen), social security and annuities are NOT taxable in Thailand. Would appreciate your thoughts on this. I think the issue of where one is a resident, in so far as the treaty is concerned, is critical in terms of defining tax liability but the text is somewhat ambiguous. TIA.

...re the comment earlier -- "...for Thai insurance to have any sort of cover there also needs to be a life insurance included in the plan." This is incorrect .... you can get health cover insurance for Thais without the life insurance part .... when I first came here, I heard the same thing but as I dug into, I realized that a vast majority of Thais have AIA as their insurance provider and AIA only sells cover as part of their life insurance package ... there are many insurance providers in Thailand that do provide health cover without the need for the life insurance bit ... I did some analysis on the value of the premiums paid to AIA for their combined life/health vs health only from other insurers and AIA ,in my opinion, does not offer value for what is paid. You could just pay for comparable coverage from some other insurer and save the difference in premiums to get a better overall long term benefit compared to AIA. I have challenged several people selling AIA insurance with my comparisons and they can't refute it. That said, Thais generally go with AIA because it's easy - one payment and you get both - cover and savings.

@Crossy A little embarrassed to report this but a reading with a multimeter showed 238 volts. False alarm. Looks like my plug-in is faulty. I had actually reported this to the PEA informally (I am facebook friends with one of the PEA guys from when we built the house) and he said it was exceptionally high and asked what I used to measure the voltage. Thanks for the help and apologies.

@CrossyThank you for your advice.

@CrossyThank you for your feedback. I don't have a data logger but a plugin that reads the voltage. It's been right around 260 pretty much all day today during the day. I haven't seen it at night though I will start to look at it at night as well. And as you suggest, I'll pay the local PEA office a visit. Now I'm worried about the stuff I have hanging off this voltage.

Hello, This morning I happened to check the voltage in the house and noticed it was 261 v. Location - Korat, Thailand. I finally decided to check because i've had a number of smart switches / sockets fail over the past few months and I attributed it to poor quality of the products - - switches / sockets. But maybe it's the line voltage ?? I thought the voltage should have been in the range of 220v +/- 10% i.e. max voltage at 242v. If 230, then max should be 253v. Anyone have any insight into this ? Thoughts / ideas appreciated. Thanks.

@Pib @John Drake Thank you for the clarification ...

Just curious ... I've heard 59 baht for overseas airmail in this thread. But when I mailed mine yesterday, they told me it was 52 baht. I asked again to make sure it was overseas airmail and they said it is 52 baht. Am I missing something ? BTW ...the main post offices in every region are open everyday till midnight including all holidays. I will be mailing my copy early next week. Thanks.

@Alotoftravel The instructions for Form 7162 states that it should be sent no later than the date the notice was received (not sent). That said, SSA probably presumes that most foreign recipients should receive their notices perhaps no later than the end of June (my opinion only - not based on anything). If that were the case, then I would also presume that they would expect to receive completed forms by the end of August - again, my opinion. Nonetheless, I am mailing the original form either today or tomorrow (heard that the main office here is open 24 hours but will verify when I go into town later this morning) and a copy week of Aug 7. Both regular airmail. @PibThank you for that information. @watthongThank you for the excellent suggestion re the 2nd notice.

Thought I would add my experience receiving my very first 7162. I just received mine today (July 29, 2023). Date on form is June 2, 2023. Nakhon Ratchasima. Out in the boondocks and the post office here (a small shack by the roadside which is closed most of the time) and the post lady has a bad habit of stocking the mail and when it is convenient for her, she goes on her rounds and drops off the mail. Based on what I have read above, it looks like I should be ok if it is received by the end of August. Will attempt to mail it out (via regular airmail) on Monday the 31st - not sure if post offices are open on that day due to the long holidays till the 2nd - if it is closed, then will mail it on the 3rd. Any advice of sending a copy after 2 weeks or so by regular airmail ?? Good thread on the 7162. Thanks.

@Pib Thanks for the clarification on the payment date. Thank you all for the support and sharing of your own journeys through this process with everyone. Best !

Hello... It's been a while and I wanted to give an update to close this thread, from my perspective, which I had started last year. In my last update, I had indicated that I received an email which scheduled a phone interview. I had that phone interview on Jan 3, 2023. In that call, the representative (from FBU Manila) apologized for the long delay in getting to this point and said that the delay was caused by mis-directing my application to the Jacksonville, Florida office as the address I had in my online social security account had a Florida address - even though in my application, it was specifically stated that I lived abroad and filled in my Thailand address. Beyond that, there was not much discussion. She took my bank details for depositing benefits and mentioned that benefits would take no longer than April '23 to start and that I would receive all back payments together with the current payment no later than early April. There was no requirement for certified copies of anything. I asked the representative about this and told her that I had the copies ready but she said they were not needed. Shortly after that call, the status of my application in my online account was changed and indicated that my application had been approved. Fast forward 3 weeks (around Jan 24), and I receive a large deposit from SSA into my account. At the same time, I receive a letter from SSA in my online SSA account inbox informing me of my approval, my benefits details and what was contained in my first deposit (which was for both December and January). They also indicated my February payment would be deposited on or about the 3rd of March and all subsequent payments would occur on or about the third of each month. In retrospect, though the application process for my benefit application dragged out for almost 5 months, in the end, to be fair to SSA, my December payment was paid in January and my January payment was paid a little earlier than scheduled while the 3rd payment is on schedule. The only odd thing is that if one follows the table of birth date vs time of deposit, according to my birthdate, I should have been paid on the 3rd Wednesday of the month but instead, I am getting paid on the 3rd of the month per their letter. Perhaps they missed the word "Wednesday" after 3rd in their letter. Thanks to all who contributed to this thread and helped me along in the process. Hopefully this thread can help others when they begin their benefit application process.

@Skeptic7 Awesome ... congrats !!! I checked my online account this morning but it still says the application is in process. However, there was a message in my inbox basically stating that my phone interview had been scheduled and in addition specified what documents I needed to bring to the interview. The only thing it asked for was either a bank account statement or a checkbook - to set up the benefit deposit info. Making progress.

@Alotoftravel The amount of your social security benefit depends on when you take it. The base benefit is defined for your age of retirement ...for those of us taking it now, our base retirement age is 66 years. For every year you delay taking benefits, your benefit is increased by 8%(up to the age of 70). So, if your monthly benefit should be $1000 at age 66, then if you delay till age 67, your monthly benefit goes up by 8% i.e. $1080. You get this benefit for the rest of your life. Suppose you delay till age 68, then your monthly benefit increases to $1166 (1080*1.08). On the other hand, if you were to take benefits at age 65 instead of your base age of 66, then your benefits would decrease by 8% i.e. it would be $920. If you took it at age 62, then your benefit would be 1000*.92*.92*.92*.92 = $716 .... so in answer to your question, by delaying the start of my benefit by one month, I would be increasing my benefit by (.08/12) i.e. if my original benefit at my desired start date were to be $1000, then by delaying it one month, my new monthly benefit would be $1006 ... seems small but over a year I get an extra $72 and that increased benefit is for your lifetime. If one could wait, and one's health is good, then it may make sense to wait until 70 to claim benefits. It all depends on one's own financial circumstances as well as health, I think, that defines when the appropriate time would be to take benefits. If you can increase your monthly benefit, why not ? The other thing to remember is that retirement benefits are paid in arrears ...so if you wanted benefits in December, it actually gets paid in January. And yes, if it is delayed, they do back pay if they are late. Someone correct me if my understanding is incorrect. Hope this helps.

I don't have this problem yet but after receiving benefits I suspect I will start to have this problem every year. Here are some lessons I have learned recently through my process of initiating retirement benefits from Thailand. 1. In order to get through to a live agent at the 1-800 SSA number, the only way to get around the automated system is to repeatedly ask for an agent. After 2 or 3 tries it will ultimately connect you with an agent. However, depending on when you call, you could wait quite a while before you actually get to speak with an agent - in my case, both times I called, it took about 30 mins. 2. The best way to connect with FBU Manila in my opinion is to send them an inquiry - https://ph.usembassy.gov/services/fbu-inquiry-form . It may take a while for them to respond but in my experience, they do respond to inquiries received via this link. A couple of things learned from prior posts here. 1. Keep the US address on my Social Security account. 2. Keep some local contact numbers of Social security offices near my US address 3. Consider sending the form to a friend and have them mail it to the required address.

@Pib Thank you for your comments. I did reply to their email this morning and asked if they required any documents. Not expecting a reply but we'll see. On the start of benefits, on one of my calls to the 800 number, one of the agents mentioned that there was still a lot of time left yet to ensure I received benefits on time. I had requested benefits start in December - he clarified that benefits are paid in arrears i.e. if I start benefits in December, I would get paid in January. So, it's still possible to see a payment in January. That said, your idea of delaying the start date to either January or February is a good one and I will definitely ask to see if that is doable.

A quick update. Received an email this morning for a phone interview scheduled in January 2023. This was in response to an inquiry I sent using the FBU Manila inquiry form. I note that my direct emails did not elicit a response but the request sent via the inquiry form did. The email did state what areas would be covered by the phone call - birth, marriage/divorce, bank routing etc. But no request for certified copies of any document. I did reply and ask if any certified copies would be required. Making progress.

@taxout @AlotoftravelThanks.

@Alotoftravel I just noticed in your last post that you indicated you received a letter from FBU Manila on your interview date. Just to clarify - did you receive notification of the phone interview via postal mail or via email ? Thanks.

Many comments since my last one but thought I would add some info. 1. I had notarized copies made of my documents in early September in anticipation of Manila asking me for them. Done at the US Embassy in Bangkok. There was no charge for the notarized certified true copies. In fact, they asked me if I wanted 2 copies - so I said yes. Gave me 2 sets at no cost but the certified copies are stamped with a note stating that these are only for use by SSA. So, you can't use them for anything else. 2. I asked about the US Embassy forwarding the copies over to FBU Manila - was told that they have long since stopped that practice. 3. As for getting it done by sending originals via mail to the Embassy - call me paranoid but my nightmare scenario is if the original documents are lost in the mail .. you are, sc#$%d ! I set up an appointment at the Embassy in Bangkok and made a trip to BKK to just get the certified copies done. Be advised that sometimes appointments can be full as far as 3 or 4 weeks out.

@Alotoftravel Here's an update. I followed Skeptic7's advice and called the 800 number. This was on Nov 1. Don't waste your time with either the Baltimore or FBU Manila number. It is hard trying to get an agent via the 800 number as it keeps steering you back to the automated system. So whatever it kept asking me, I just kept replying 'agent" and after 2 or 3 tries, it finally acknowledged that I wanted to speak to an agent. That said, I had to wait almost 30 mins before I was connected to an agent. Here's what the agent told me - (1) said there was still time to ensure I got my benefits on time in December as I had requested (2) checked my file and discovered that my file was actually in the Baltimore office (though my previous emails came from FBU Manila). The agent told me he would try and get me the number of the person in the Baltimore office that had my file. He spent some time looking for it and then finally said he could not find it. He offered to message the Baltimore office about the status of my file and requested that they get back to me. On Nov 2, the day after the call, I get an email from FBU Manila requesting my foreign address. So I promptly replied back with my foreign address. Later that afternoon, I get another email from the same person @ FBU Manila asking me for my full name, contact number and foreign address. I had previously supplied all of this information several times before to the same person in FBU Manila - On Aug 10 via an email to FBU Manila when I submitted my application, Sep 27 when I was asked for my contact info, Oct 12 for all of my contact info again ! And now on Nov 2. All basically the same info. The reason stated for requesting that info was to schedule me for a phone interview. I am yet to hear back. At this point, I am not planning any more follow up. I am planning on going back to the states and will go visit a social security office there.

@Skeptic7 I've been trying to call either FBU Manila or the Baltimore office (@410-965-0160. Have been trying now for almost a week and all i get is all lines are busy. I've also tried the main 1-800 number for SSA but I can't get through there either except when I did try the automated system, it did tell me that my claim has not yet been approved but was not able to get to a live agent. Is this the number you called or is there another number ? Frustrating as hell ! Good luck with getting your application done soon.

Congrats ! You are extremely lucky. I'm still waiting ... 77 days and counting. Sent an inquiry via the FBU weblink last night. Tried calling them several times over the last 2 weeks but with no luck. Will keep trying.

An update. Subsequent to the email I received from FBU Manila on Sept 26 requesting a contact number and available dates and times, I have yet to receive a call from them. On October 7, I sent them an email asking when I could expect a call. Today, October 12, I receive another email but this time letting me know that in order for them to schedule me for a phone interview, they required my full name, date of birth, mailing address and contact number. I have promptly responded to that email with the required info. Will update as events unfold. 63 days and counting since the application for benefits was submitted.

Shortly after I sent my last update yesterday, I received an email from FBU Manila requesting my phone number and day/times for a call so that they could call me to assist me - "Kindly provide your contact number, available time and day so that we can assist you." Stay tuned !