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mark45y
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Posts posted by mark45y
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So, what did all of the Russians do during Song Kran? Did they throw water and party with the beautiful women in wet T shirts?
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This list is terrible, it looks like a marketing ploy to get people to go to N America. Is it really necessary to
list Florida 4 times. Trip advisor have sold out to the big corporations.
not been to all of these but what about :
Bali or Gili Isles (Indonesia)
Bonsai Beach- (Australia)
Many on Samui, Phuket or Ko lipe etc
Bay of Islands (New Zealand, not strictly a single beach but take yer pick!)
Goa (India)
South Carolina at number 6 surely a picture speaks a 1000 words lol
Suggestions anyone?
I lived in Florida for 20 years. I never went to any of the beaches listed because there are at least 4 other beaches in Florida that are better.
So I guess they should have listed Florida 8 times by their standards. My standards? Clean beaches, powder like white sand, T-Back topless or nude,
world class food close by, good looking college age women, clean rest rooms and showers, sea shells, good swimming, good fishing.
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Thailand has a way of filling up your time very quickly.
When I first got here I took a term of Thai language 4 hours a day 5 days a week. It was not near enough. I should have done 6 hours in class and two with a tutor for at least a year. It is not like it is expensive.
After 6 months in the country my life began to fill up with things to do and education was not easy to schedule. Then I started working and one job led to another and I had no time at all.
College and language course do it while you have the time.
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Depends on whether you want to go to an art museum or a petting zoo.
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Well you have to remember the ladies are looking for a better life, be it with a farang or Thai with a bit of money. All working girls have to retire someday, hopefully they have netted their husband by then, otherwise its a life of poverty from then on. I am sure this is the grand plan for most of them.
No lady who has upped her status wants to admit she was once a hooker
True, but that would also apply to most other people as well. I would hazard a guess that at least half the population everywhere has skeletons in their closets that they don't want to be made public. Frankly, I don't see a lot of difference between the average Thai hooker and many other women in most every other society. It is only sex and how we perceive it. The whole frigging world revolves around sex. It's only narrow minded people who want to make it into something ugly. And, that is usually because they've been brainwashed by perverted religious fanatics who want to manipulate people.
The difference between Thai hookers and many other women in most every other society? Thai hookers like sex more.
Do they...??
It helps it you speak Issan. Sit in a bar and listen to what the ladies are saying about the customers who walk in. The questions they ask one another are not about financial concerns.
GF is out of town for the holidays so I have spent the week cruising around town, stopping occasionally and having a soda.
This week of course the ladies are a bit drunk most of the time but their conversation more resembles sailors on shore leave. And the poor old guys coming down the stairs afterwards look about to die.
You know how after a massage you are given a cup of tea and told to sit for a bit while your body recuperates from the massage. It's like that. Afterwards, the women help the fellow who looks like he has just run a marathon to the bar and give him a glass of water and tell him to wait a minute to rest before he walks out. (caveat, women over 30 years of age)
The women are not shy about talking because they think you have no idea what they are saying.
I am sure professional football players play for the money. But I also think they love the game. It reminds me of that.
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Well you have to remember the ladies are looking for a better life, be it with a farang or Thai with a bit of money. All working girls have to retire someday, hopefully they have netted their husband by then, otherwise its a life of poverty from then on. I am sure this is the grand plan for most of them.
No lady who has upped her status wants to admit she was once a hooker
True, but that would also apply to most other people as well. I would hazard a guess that at least half the population everywhere has skeletons in their closets that they don't want to be made public. Frankly, I don't see a lot of difference between the average Thai hooker and many other women in most every other society. It is only sex and how we perceive it. The whole frigging world revolves around sex. It's only narrow minded people who want to make it into something ugly. And, that is usually because they've been brainwashed by perverted religious fanatics who want to manipulate people.
The difference between Thai hookers and many other women in most every other society? Thai hookers like sex more.
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Everybody lies but lady boys lie more. You see women don't have to lie about being a woman nor does a man have to lie about being a man. They are what they are. Lady boys if they are to be effective realistic lady boys have to be effective liars. It does not make them bad people but they are involved creating an identity that is patently false. Kind of like a spy doing deep cover stuff.
They become the lie as the spy becomes the person he is trying to impersonate.
So no one has ever done any realistic research about lady boys because they lie all the time.
People who know the least about lady boys are straight guys who live with lady boys. They get the lie 24/7.
The only people who could tell the truth are lady boy researchers but they won't because they are members of the lady boy cabal.
It is similar to anthropologists who become part of a tribe to study the tribe but then can't publish reports about the tribe because they are members.
To do any effective research on lady boys one would have to ask the questions of women who lived and worked with lady boys. The only people lady boys don't have to lie to are women who they treat as peers.
Why don't psychologists know this? Because they believe what the lady boys tell them when they ask them questions. I told you lady boys were good liars.
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No, it's too late, the image of barking geese is firmly lodged in my brain now
Geese bark. Imagine the impression you will make. They already think we are nuts, then you show up with a giant chicken that swims, barks and chases people.
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I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.
In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.
Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?
The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.
Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.
At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.
Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)
Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?
Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)
So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?
And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?
EDITED for format
... MikeHunt02, you might find useful the hard, cold, adult business facts ... here are the numbers, excerpted from a report published by the Thailand Development Research Institute on 2011-03-17:
"There are around 2.3 million households in which children are being raised by grandparents ... average age of 65 ... The number is five times larger than the figure 23 years ago ... Six in ten Thai children are living with parents, a figure that has decreased by around 1.4 per cent each year."
... I accept that some percentage of these are a consequence of sad economic realities, but I also know a remarkable percentage are not.
... these sorts of figures are moving the sociological center of gravity of an entire nation ... and the TDRI intel doesn't cite children raised in Thai institutions ... excluding them, at the current trend, by 2018 fully 50% of all children born in Thailand will be raised by people other than their parents ... if you include institutionalized children, that occurs sooner ... nice, eh?
... be honest, MikeHunt02, did you have any idea the numbers were this big?
... you challenged earlier for me to name a country where this is not happening ... I really think I've nothing to validate ... so, how about you cite countries where it IS happening at this rate and in these percentages? ... I'll wager that your list will likely be confined to countries infected by inferior cultural values.
... now ... you can try to refute the TDRI report, claiming they are corrupt and incompetent ... perhaps (they are Thai), but probably not.
... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.
... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:
"Was I not good enough? Why did my mother not want me? If she really loved me, why did she not come find me? For her to do something so horrible as this, she must have hated me a lot. What did I do? I must have been a horrible child. I am a horrible person."
... that wound is either there, or it is coming and there is no avoiding it ... nothing heals that wound but a lifetime of loving them into submission, and nothing avoids that wound but a bonded parent ... and men, that train left long ago for our kids, and for millions of Thai children.
... (as an aside, if either of you or your foster children are dealing with these issues, I found an absolute pearl of a behavioral psychologist here ... top drawer and dedicated ... specializes in child behavior ... Thai woman, but gets western values ... THB 1,000/hour ... undergrad in Thailand, graduate in the US, clinical practice in the US ... helped with the cross-cultural issues as well ... message me if you would like her contact coordinates).
You surly must think you are the savior of your clan bringing all of your superior cultural values to bear on your wife and family.
... not at all ... these kids are raised as Thais, not perfect images of the western blue-bloods you have wrongfully synthesized to fulfill your mistaken image of me - a western missionary zealot!
... they are Buddhist, and will remain so ... I encourage that they are faithful to their Buddhist beliefs ... the youngest, of Mon lineage, is taught to be proud of his roots, and to never allow anyone to ever claim advantage over him because of his dark skin and "impure" heredity (a widespread cultural value by which he has already been victimized - he is 6 years sold ... nice, huh?) ... lying is unacceptable in our family ... they must accept personal responsibility for their actions ... they must apologise for and correct their misdeeds ... respect is expected, but not offered on the basis of unearned, entitled privilege ... judge people by what is in their heads and hearts, not by their family name, the size of their bank account, or their physical appearance ... don't gossip ... don't be lazy ... be charitable to people less fortunate that you, even if they are not family ... make your bed ... brush your teeth ... education is important ... put the toilet seat up when you pee, and for God's sake flush!
... pretty incidious what I am creating here ... anything particularly unique to "my superior culture" you see there? ... but, that is just a partial list ... you should see the rest!
... read John Locke and other social and political philosophers of the Enlightenment Era ... universal values that know no race, creed, or color ... natural law ... maybe you've heard of it ... just basic human decency
That is what I was referring to before.
Maybe you are correct but I doubt that most Thais would agree with your assessment of their cowardly, dishonest, duplicitous, selfish and exploitive behavior. Matter of fact you paint a pretty grim portrait of the Thai people.
... I have often found what people DO far more indicative of their values than what people think ... especially where concealing behavior and truth is common
I could never live in a country that had values like you describe let along raise children there. I would be gone in a heartbeat.
... but, we are not impotent to change things, if even in small ways
I think, you think you have it figured out. Looked at inferior Thai values and compared them to your own and drawn the obvious conclusions.
... once again, you've got me there! ... read my reply addressed to you in the above post
Kind of reminds me of the British novels a hundred years ago. Who would take care of the dark people if we weren't there. Or the American thinking in the South before the Civil War.
... that's what you've got? ... THAT?! ... it's just plain offensive, and betrays a real lack of intellect ... keep that bullshit in the barn
America was an agricultural nation before 1900 and when industry modernized farming and jobs became available in the cities there was a major migration. Extended families no longer became the norm and smaller families became the rule. Children were not taken care of by grandparents but day care centers or became latchkey children.
I would hate to think that your opinions which can best be described as colonial were the norm of the posters on Thai Visa.
... that judgement is your privilege
I tried to find the TDRI report to read it but there are only a couple of paragraphs clipped and posted in newspapers. I tried to look up the researcher but there is no listing of a person by that name at the TDRI website. Maybe you can help. I am sure you read the whole report and not the brief news report in the Nations News.
... sorry, but I too could only excerpt pieces of the TDRI study from the media ... do you doubt the numbers?
... be honest, does it alarm you that 40% of all children in Thailand are now being raised by people other than their parents? ... and that figure will rise to 50% by 2018?
... is that a good thing? ... or, is that a bad thing?
... is that a consequence of Thai behavior? ... or, is it being perpetrated on the helpless Thai people by neo-colonials, as you allege I am
A couple of housekeeping issues. Yes I doubt the numbers unless I can see the study. They make good headlines but not good science. One can't even find the guy who wrote the study. I imagine he had to leave the country.
Even before we disagree about any of the cultural values we have a more basic disagreement.
You said, “. but, we are not impotent to change things, if even in small ways.”
I am not an engineer. I am not a doctor.
My first degree was in cultural anthropology. My first scientific and academic training was to look at things and document those things. I simply have no interest in changing them. Over and over it was bored into my head to get value judgments out of my research and concentrate on the facts. After a while it sunk in. I am not here to change things I am here to live here as it is. I don't want to make it better or worse place I only ask to live here like it is. Margaret Meads famous study was a hoax because she couldn't get her self out of her findings. Even though it was exposed as a hoax years ago some colleges still teach it. Margaret was a highly trained anthropologist, who are you to say you can look at Thai society with an objective eye, hardly possible. If you read recent Thai studies on child rearing they are afraid of the children loosing traditional Thai values. That is the major worry, loosing Thai values. You are really light years apart in your thinking from Thai sociologists. Thai sociologists are worried about Western values making inroads in modern Thai society. There are almost no psychologists in Thailand because educated Thai people see no need for them. You are just 180 degrees away from current Thai thinking on the issue.
When my children were conceived I made a decision to raise them in the US and Canada. At the time I considered those two countries the best place to raise children. They are now adults living in both the US and Canada. Educated, sane and with children of their own. I have also told them if they come to visit me not to bring their husbands or children with them. I have 4 daughters. Perhaps the above statement tells you how I really feel about Thailand or child rearing. Or maybe I just don't want them to see me dancing with women younger than themselves. I don't think I even really know.
You kind of remind me of my wives who were always trying to change things for the better. Mostly they were trying to change me. It didn't work. After the kids were grown I came back to Thailand.
Business interests aside I don't think the Brits who ran the colonies were trying to harm the natives nor do I think many of the American slaveholders were trying to harm the slaves. Given the cultural values of the time I don't see Thomas Jefferson being a harsh person, uncaring of the welfare of the people he owned. I think he probably thought he knew much more than they did and was acting in the best interests of all concerned.
I don't think you are a bad guy. I think you may even be in a majority here on Thai Visa. But in Thailand you represent a minuscule segment of popular thought. Thais are far more worried about the negative aspects of Western culture than the few positive aspects and most would tell you there are almost no positive aspects to Western culture.
Are you lighting one candle or pissing in the wind.
In general I would say that a Western person in Thailand is impotent to make any changes in Thai core values and moreover if he did change anything it would not be for the better.
I wish you luck but you are not going to have an easy time in Thailand. The deck is stacked against you and you are 100% confident that you are right and know a better way. Your writing shows almost a missionary zeal for truth and justice. I have no doubt that the Jesuits who tried to shape my young mind and mentioned the “Natural Law” a lot thought they were correct too.
Does it alarm me that 40% of Thai children are being raised by people other than their parents? If it is an accurate number and I seriously doubt it's accuracy, no it does not alarm me. Eskimos were 100% raised by people other than their parents and many communities in the South Seas raised the children communally with no problems at all. I imagine many parts of Europe people with money had nanny's and boarding schools raise children. Many people I grew up with had a wet nurse, nanny and later went to boarding school, rarely seeing their parents.
I am old enough to remember the traditional Thai Values that were the norm when I got here 40 years ago. The year I was born there were only 18 million people living in Thailand. Yes Thailand was a lot different then than now. It alarms me like it alarms most Thais that the country is loosing its Thai traditional values. There is now a vacuum and nothing coming in to replace the traditions.
You are suggesting replacing the traditions with Western ones. The lady who is the detective in the OP is also suggesting this. You are assuming that Western answers will work for Western problems in Thailand. Industrialization creates displacement of children. The Western answer is the dissolution of the extended family, anti depressants and feminists insisting on equal rights for women. The detectives come in, catch the guys and the divorce courts change laws to redistribute the wealth from the family to the divorced female.
In the West females used to stay married regardless of the behavior of the male. That changed. Marriages changed and divorce statistics changed. Did the children benefit from the liberated female?
Maybe yes maybe no but society changed.
To suggest that Western values are the answer to Thai problems is a complicated issue best left to Thais to solve. Here is where we disagree.
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Some people in Thailand are very gullible. I discovered when I didn't want to go some place it was sometimes more effective to say I had a dream about a snake eating my girlfriend at that beach.
You can also get a lot of mileage with the aura thing.
There is a sucker born every minute.
Of course I have also had her angry with me because she had a dream I had a mia noi. When you play the game you have to take the good and the bad.
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But a pair of geese. They don't take to people well but if they like you, you are OK. Mine used to bite my wife on her butt and chase her around except if she was with me. Chickens seem to get out of their way. Geese can hurt you with a bite and flog you pretty well with their wings.
I had geese in Arkansas but never tried them in Thailand. They are good to eat. Remember to keep draining off the fat they are pretty greasy.
PS don't run away from them, that only goads them on. They don't train well and seem to have a short or non existent memory. A bit like my first GF from Issan. You can establish dominance over a goose and the next day she has completely forgotten the experience. They don't even seem to care that you feed them daily. If they don't like you they just don't like you.
I think you can buy them in Rayong at Heritage Geese Farms I think. They make good watch dogs too.
Geese have been protecting Ballantine's bonded warehouses near Glasgow, Scotland, since 1959. They guard 240 million litres of maturing whiskey.
Let me know if you try it.
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I write speeches.
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I am merely pointing out that the same situation occurs frequently in all countries.
In Thailand the men leave by choice, in the west men are forced out of their homes.
Uhhmmm...no, leaving by choice and being forced out is not the same. For one thing, one can't be nlamed for being forced but leaving by choice?
The number of men I meet from the west who are first forced out of the family home, refused contact, fleeced of their worldly goods, then denounced as abandoning their children is truly amazing.
Well, if it's as many as you imply, that is amazing. I'm not aware that the incidence is anywhere near as high in the whole US as you would like us to believe, so it's extraordinary that you'd meet a large number here. Especially since in over 2 decades, I don't think I've met any.
At least in Thailand families take care of their own, if both a child's parents abandon it (very rare) there are always grandparents, siblings, cousins to step in. Often unrelated villagers will take a child in.
Are you sure it's very rare? What source do you base that on? (And you don't think that if you and I -- two random guys -- both have an abandoned child in our care that maybe it's not very rare?)
Are you suggesting that in the US families don't typically step in?
Better to look after a child for love or family duty (Thailand), than to look after a child for payment (the west)
So in Thailand it's always about love or family duty? In the west it's about money?
And what's with this Thailand vs "West" thing anyway?
EDITED for format
... MikeHunt02, you might find useful the hard, cold, adult business facts ... here are the numbers, excerpted from a report published by the Thailand Development Research Institute on 2011-03-17:
"There are around 2.3 million households in which children are being raised by grandparents ... average age of 65 ... The number is five times larger than the figure 23 years ago ... Six in ten Thai children are living with parents, a figure that has decreased by around 1.4 per cent each year."
... I accept that some percentage of these are a consequence of sad economic realities, but I also know a remarkable percentage are not.
... these sorts of figures are moving the sociological center of gravity of an entire nation ... and the TDRI intel doesn't cite children raised in Thai institutions ... excluding them, at the current trend, by 2018 fully 50% of all children born in Thailand will be raised by people other than their parents ... if you include institutionalized children, that occurs sooner ... nice, eh?
... be honest, MikeHunt02, did you have any idea the numbers were this big?
... you challenged earlier for me to name a country where this is not happening ... I really think I've nothing to validate ... so, how about you cite countries where it IS happening at this rate and in these percentages? ... I'll wager that your list will likely be confined to countries infected by inferior cultural values.
... now ... you can try to refute the TDRI report, claiming they are corrupt and incompetent ... perhaps (they are Thai), but probably not.
... or, maybe you might now claim young Thai children raised by 65-year old illiterate grandparents who believe in ghosts, do not value education and raised fine upstanding children of their own who abandon their own children are not so bad off ... another high hanging inside fast ball destined for the fence.
... and think about a hard reality I learned from the behavorial psychologists who helped me with my kids: ... regardless how hard I try to love these kids back to emotional health, they will always bear a deep, painful wound ... regardless of the self-confidence and self-value I might help them find, they will always wonder:
"Was I not good enough? Why did my mother not want me? If she really loved me, why did she not come find me? For her to do something so horrible as this, she must have hated me a lot. What did I do? I must have been a horrible child. I am a horrible person."
... that wound is either there, or it is coming and there is no avoiding it ... nothing heals that wound but a lifetime of loving them into submission, and nothing avoids that wound but a bonded parent ... and men, that train left long ago for our kids, and for millions of Thai children.
... (as an aside, if either of you or your foster children are dealing with these issues, I found an absolute pearl of a behavioral psychologist here ... top drawer and dedicated ... specializes in child behavior ... Thai woman, but gets western values ... THB 1,000/hour ... undergrad in Thailand, graduate in the US, clinical practice in the US ... helped with the cross-cultural issues as well ... message me if you would like her contact coordinates).
You surly must think you are the savior of your clan bringing all of your superior cultural values to bear on your wife and family.
That is what I was referring to before.
Maybe you are correct but I doubt that most Thais would agree with your assessment of their cowardly, dishonest, duplicitous, selfish and exploitive behavior. Matter of fact you paint a pretty grim portrait of the Thai people.
I could never live in a country that had values like you describe let along raise children there. I would be gone in a heartbeat.
I think, you think you have it figured out. Looked at inferior Thai values and compared them to your own and drawn the obvious conclusions.
Kind of reminds me of the British novels a hundred years ago. Who would take care of the dark people if we weren't there. Or the American thinking in the South before the Civil War.
America was an agricultural nation before 1900 and when industry modernized farming and jobs became available in the cities there was a major migration. Extended families no longer became the norm and smaller families became the rule. Children were not taken care of by grandparents but day care centers or became latchkey children.
I would hate to think that your opinions which can best be described as colonial were the norm of the posters on Thai Visa.
I tried to find the TDRI report to read it but there are only a couple of paragraphs clipped and posted in newspapers. I tried to look up the researcher but there is no listing of a person by that name at the TDRI website. Maybe you can help. I am sure you read the whole report and not the brief news report in the Nations News.
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... MikeHunt02, you seem obsessed with deflecting the argument to western countries, as though that makes Thai child abandonment somehow less incidious ... it doesn't ... in absolute terms, the values that allow for people to abandon children are inferior values, regardless of where it happens ... the child is equally damaged.
... I condemn the behavior in absolute terms, irrespective of WHERE it happens ... I do believe, however, few would argue that the incidence of child abandonment in countries with superior cultural values is far, FAR less than in Thailand, where it is just downright commonplace.
... I believe there are perfectly logical reasons for this ... superior cultural values are reflected in the institutions and the laws a society adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior:
(i) in countries with superior cultural values, child abandonment is publically denounced, whereas in Thailand there appears little or no shame in it;
(ii) in countries with superior cultural values, a public safety net exists to catch these kids, whereas in Thailand the government's orphanage system is institutionalized dehumanization of children;
(iii) in countries with superior cultural values, laws exist to protect children and exact financial support (at least) from the worthless parents, whereas in Thailand there is nothing of which I am aware ... not that laws mean anything to Thais even in the defence of their children, which you previously cited as a "great thing" about Thailand ... (still waiting to hear you confirm that is really what you meant).
... and thus my conclusion, that countries with superior cultural values are better in absolute terms to those with poor cultural values ... Thailand demonstrates inferior cultural values through the institutions and the laws it adopts and the commonly held views of acceptable behavior by the Thai people.
... and guys, this is but ONE measure of Thailand's inferior cultural values ... think of the scores of other examples we could debate, most of which I would have a hard time defending were I Thai ... charity v. greed, honesty v. deceit, sacrifice v. selfishness, sincerity v. duplicity, bravery v. cowardice, respect v. "face", defending the weak v. exploiting the weak, justice v. corruption, spirituality v. hypocrisy ... it goes on, and on, and on.
... glad to continue the spirited debate on Thai inferior cultural values guys, but feel I am now beating a dead horse ... I've said my piece, so I'll shut up, but to make a few extraneous comments below.
I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think you have written the following when compared to societies with superior cultural values:
Thais abandon their children.
Thais are greedy.
Thais are dishonest.
Thais are selfish.
Thais are duplicitous.
Thais are cowards.
Thais are corrupt.
Thais are hypocrites.
Thais are not spiritual.
Thais exploit the weak.
And the list goes on and on. so you say.
Before I write an opinion of your mindset I want to make sure I have the facts.
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... Mark45y, you've misunderstood what I wrote ... stay with me on this and let's drill down a bit deeper.
... first, and importantly, you've assumed this is about western CULTURE versus Asian CULTURE ... it is not ... it is about CULTURAL VALUES ... the distinction is huge.
... further to that, I make no such statement about western culture being superior to Asian culture, because I do not believe that ... as a child, I was raised in three Asian countries and as an adult three more ... I get Asian culture.
... second, you've assumed I am from the west and misinterpreted that this is about one system being superior to another ... it is not ... in this you are attempting "relative ethics", a failed standard (actually not a standard at all, eventually dumbing down to a "standard" that is the greater of two inferior principles) ... this is about ABSOLUTE values and their consequences, regardless of the place in which they are practiced.
... and no, infidelity has not screwed up my life ... I am unconcerned about a system of cultural values that tolerates widespread infidelity, or open marriages, or friends with benefits, whatever ... done responsibility, they can be healthy relationships ... those are personal moral choices to which people are entitled, and should be personally responsible (side note: think of values as what makes a person responsible) ... no problem.
... what offends my sense of absolute values are the CONSEQUENCES of that behavior when irresponsibly practiced ... unwanted babies, abandoned, who grow up to be unwanted children raised in environments that produce adults who are "less" in terms of education, economic opportunity, potential, however you want to define human fulfillment, etc.
... if the cultural values were such that the parents of these innocent children would then together accept the personal responsibility for raising these children in a loving and nurturing environment, raising that child's life above their own, I would have no problem ... sadly, that is not the reality here ... they more often than not abandon them.
... innocent children are the wreckage from these inferior values ... take children out of the equation, and I have no problem with people lubing up and mounting red-assed baboons in the privacy of their homes, or brothels, or a Soi Nana stage ... really.
... my view, simply, is that societies broadly accepting of inferior values that cause widespread damage to innocents, especially children, piss me off ... Thailand is one of them ... it's legacy of abandoned children are the evidence of that.
Two current articles worth reading:
... re: Thai cultural values ... "Decency drowns in a culture without a sense of guilt" ... http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/231230/decency-drowns-in-a-culture-without-a-sense-of-shame
... re: Thai social decay ... "Thailand rates low in educational performance and high in social problems" ...
I think I got it. In Thailand more often than not parents abandon their children. Right?
So I will have something to compare it to what society do parents more often than not, not abandon their children?
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Having lived in Thailand for 16 years, I hardly find it surprising. More and more Thai women are not looking to be the spouse as they see more opportunity in being the mere noi to as many guys as they can schedule, one paying the rent, one paying for the car, one paying for their credit card bills and so on, as long as each one only wants to see them only one night per week, or with foreigners, one - four weeks per year. Marriage and collecting a dowry is just collecting as much as possible before the mere noi's get it and/or before they go back to being one themselves. Men don't have to look for mere nois, as "me mere noi, aow " is almost as common as "Sawadee kap" and "Sabai de mai" in day to day conversation.
I have many of those in my neighborhood. They generally rotate 3 to 4 men during the week. Everyone knows what they do and the other Thai treat them like upstanding citizens. If they can scam any money from farangs then they are worshiped, but mostly it's Thai on Thai.
... and what these men and women do in the privacy of their own lives is of no concern to me ... I really have no problem watching people screw themselves up ... sad to watch, but they are adults and in control of their own destinies.
... but ... when they breed, the healthful and happy lives of innocent children are then threatened ... often, these children are used quite purposefully as battering rams by the mia nois for financial advantage ... and in the end, the woman more often abandons them than not ... what chance at life will these children have?
... this is how inferior cultural values reach beyond two idiots to infect innocent lives and to propagate these inferior values to the next generation ... now, that DOES piss me off.
... I am watching it happen right now with a Thai woman who has lived by the pervasive Thai practice of mia nois, non-commited relationships, or "no strings attached wives and children" ... she now has 4 children by three men (she finally married an Aussie and abandoned them all) ... the children are a pathetic lot, and their futures fairly certain.
... the eldest daughter, now 18, is pregnant by a man with a family ... much as this girl bitterly despised her mother, she has now become her mother ... and she will do to her own children what her mother did to her, assuring that these inferior cultural values will exist well into the last quarter of this century.
... let's see now ... inferior cultural values, or superior cultural values? ... gosh, I just don't know.
I am kind of amazed that you have called Thai culture inferior to Western culture and our two staunchest defenders of the Thai way have not chimed in to debate you.
Maybe they agree Western cultural values are superior to Thai values.
Just to make sure I am accurate; you have equated infidelity with screwing your life up. Correct?
You have suggested that fidelity is a Western value that is practiced on a much larger scale than in Thailand. Correct?
Because if you haven't your whole argument boils down to a couple of people you know and is not typical in Thailand.
Just to restate what you said, Thailand has inferior moral values to the West when it comes to sex and relationships.
Would it be fair to characterize what you are saying as, Thais are morally inferior to Western people when it comes to relationships?
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Swillowbee
Good posts! Continuing on, I know or rather knew a really lovely couple. They were HiSo I guess you could say. Very close friends of ours and very loving. He was independently wealthyish and she as the daughter of an old school Governor was loaded and had a string of hotels on beaches somewhere very popular. Basically, here family were minted, she was at a table nearbye with her Mum, and Uncle, who were discussing the forthcoming marraige and her Mum and Uncle (Father away as normal with one of his other wives) were saying they would not accept sinsod below 200 million Baht !!! <deleted>! The couple loved each other dearly. We overheard the young woman pleading with her Mum saying her boyfriend couldn't afford that, it would wipe him out, then what do they live on and use to maintain standard of life etc etc. The Mum and Uncle were ruthless and unrelenting and basically told her that she must find someone who can afford it or lose ownership and rights to her 4 hotels (big ones!). her family are worth a couple of billion baht. We weren't eves dropping, we were 4 meters away. Had both of them in our house after that crying their eyes out. The marraige was stopped, they split up and are now both the most miserable people on earth. She has parents that need shooting and he is ready to top himself.!! A perfect example of everything that is wrong with the values of certain parts of Thai society. He was effectively wealthy and what couple can't live on 200 Mill, but she was terrified of being cut off from the 'family', a group of evil monsters that need putting down! Seems family and money won! The couple lost!
Mrs Mills
Get out of the pub and stop mixing with the wrong company. Most of the Farangs I know do not cheat on their wives and under no circumstances drink and drive. It's all about the friends you keep!
You and Swillowbee are the great white hope. Your superior moral and ethical values will obviously save us from the yellow menace of Asian arranged marriages, loose morals, minor wives, infidelity and in general carrying on in a non Western fashion.
That's below par, Mark.
I hope its not sycophantic to say I expect better from you.
If I did not know better, I would say that is Happy Hour talk....
SC
I have not felt the need to drink since I left the moral, ethical and superior shores of the Western world.
Sorry I jumped into the breach but our Thai values defenders seem to have abandoned this thread.
When I read quotes like below from Swillowbee perhaps I overreact.
“Thailand is a real test of a man's character ... back home, our behaviors are not just internally, but externally constrained.”
“a Thai world in which there are no external constraints on a man's behaviors.”
“a reflection of their cultural values ... simply inferior.”
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Swillowbee
Good posts! Continuing on, I know or rather knew a really lovely couple. They were HiSo I guess you could say. Very close friends of ours and very loving. He was independently wealthyish and she as the daughter of an old school Governor was loaded and had a string of hotels on beaches somewhere very popular. Basically, here family were minted, she was at a table nearbye with her Mum, and Uncle, who were discussing the forthcoming marraige and her Mum and Uncle (Father away as normal with one of his other wives) were saying they would not accept sinsod below 200 million Baht !!! <deleted>! The couple loved each other dearly. We overheard the young woman pleading with her Mum saying her boyfriend couldn't afford that, it would wipe him out, then what do they live on and use to maintain standard of life etc etc. The Mum and Uncle were ruthless and unrelenting and basically told her that she must find someone who can afford it or lose ownership and rights to her 4 hotels (big ones!). her family are worth a couple of billion baht. We weren't eves dropping, we were 4 meters away. Had both of them in our house after that crying their eyes out. The marraige was stopped, they split up and are now both the most miserable people on earth. She has parents that need shooting and he is ready to top himself.!! A perfect example of everything that is wrong with the values of certain parts of Thai society. He was effectively wealthy and what couple can't live on 200 Mill, but she was terrified of being cut off from the 'family', a group of evil monsters that need putting down! Seems family and money won! The couple lost!
Mrs Mills
Get out of the pub and stop mixing with the wrong company. Most of the Farangs I know do not cheat on their wives and under no circumstances drink and drive. It's all about the friends you keep!
You and Swillowbee are the great white hope. Your superior moral and ethical values will obviously save us from the yellow menace of Asian arranged marriages, loose morals, minor wives, infidelity and in general carrying on in a non Western fashion.
... how pithy ... a real razor, you are.
... yes, Mark45y, saving the world from the yellows is for what GentlemanJim and I dedicate ourselves ... our reason for living ... having a life with meaning is, however, a big part of how I was raised.
... I would dare you to make such trite remarks if you were inclined to try to make a difference at a very personal level here ... not all the yellows, you see, but even just a few ... the sad wreckage of Thai children abandoned by the wretched animals they have to call their families might touch even a cynic as you.
... I've been touched by 5 Thai kids who I made my own ... I raise them as my own ... the youngest came to me at just under 2-years of age ... a traumatized child who did not cry and did not speak ... a product of a not too untypical Thai family ... mostly wife beating, but some child abuse, alcoholism, gambling, jobless men and a few other shining behaviors quite common within accepted Thai cultural values.
... am I better than the animals that were destroying this beautiful little boy? ... you bet, mark45y ... superior in every way.
You are wrong on two levels. The first is Asian/Thai values. Thai people don't like to be told Western values are superior to theirs. Japanese people don't like to be told nor do Chinese people like to be told. Matter of fact neither do Indian or Muslim people. You may think your values are better and they may be. But the British and French got kicked out of every colonial country around here because the country did not think so.
Secondly you are wrong on a family business level and the Thai family is correct – FOR THAILAND.
Nor do I believe in missionaries or meddling NGO's doing the same things you are advocating.
America is going to hell in a handbag trying to enforce their ideas of government on other nations and you are doing the same thing in your own small way.
I am sure there are enough problems to solve in your own country to take care of rather than traveling all this way to try to save Thailand.
I'll admit it took me a while to adjust. The first year I was here, 1968, I saw many things I thought were wrong. Now I have a more balanced view.
I have no problem with you lighting one candle rather than cursing the darkness. I just wish you would do it in your own country, where you have a better idea what the consequences of the light will be.
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Swillowbee
Good posts! Continuing on, I know or rather knew a really lovely couple. They were HiSo I guess you could say. Very close friends of ours and very loving. He was independently wealthyish and she as the daughter of an old school Governor was loaded and had a string of hotels on beaches somewhere very popular. Basically, here family were minted, she was at a table nearbye with her Mum, and Uncle, who were discussing the forthcoming marraige and her Mum and Uncle (Father away as normal with one of his other wives) were saying they would not accept sinsod below 200 million Baht !!! <deleted>! The couple loved each other dearly. We overheard the young woman pleading with her Mum saying her boyfriend couldn't afford that, it would wipe him out, then what do they live on and use to maintain standard of life etc etc. The Mum and Uncle were ruthless and unrelenting and basically told her that she must find someone who can afford it or lose ownership and rights to her 4 hotels (big ones!). her family are worth a couple of billion baht. We weren't eves dropping, we were 4 meters away. Had both of them in our house after that crying their eyes out. The marraige was stopped, they split up and are now both the most miserable people on earth. She has parents that need shooting and he is ready to top himself.!! A perfect example of everything that is wrong with the values of certain parts of Thai society. He was effectively wealthy and what couple can't live on 200 Mill, but she was terrified of being cut off from the 'family', a group of evil monsters that need putting down! Seems family and money won! The couple lost!
Mrs Mills
Get out of the pub and stop mixing with the wrong company. Most of the Farangs I know do not cheat on their wives and under no circumstances drink and drive. It's all about the friends you keep!
You and Swillowbee are the great white hope. Your superior moral and ethical values will obviously save us from the yellow menace of Asian arranged marriages, loose morals, minor wives, infidelity and in general carrying on in a non Western fashion.
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Conversation with the Thai cow girls can be a light on the intellectual...
Some people you do meet have stories so unbelievable that they are probably true. Once met an old Arab airline pilot; he told me he was test flying some new plane for the airline he was working for. He told me he remembered Sukhumwit when it had palm trees and a lady could be had for 30 baht.
I love those old, old storys. Back when gi's could get laid for a bar of soap, etc.Well, it wasn't that cheap.....but it certainly was a much better value than what passes for today. And in those days, the girls were nicer and still wholesome - regardless of their working status.
There is a lady who has been selling food at the market at Kilo Sip across from the entrance to U-Tapao airport for 40 years. She has an odd heart shaped tattoo on the back of her neck. She is now around 65 years old. I knew her in a biblical sense 40 years ago when I was in my 20's. I was walking with some young friends at the market last year. It was Song Kran and the ladies were a bit tipsy. We bought some food from said lady and one thing led to another and the old woman decided to entertain my group with a recitation of our adventures when I was a young soldier. GF did not take kindly to the story. I kept repeating, “sweet Jesus woman it was 40 years ago.” She, “you no good cheating Falang butterfly.” “All same.” “Men no good.”
Some things never change.
Luckily I have only met two women in modern Thailand that I knew when I first arrived here in the 1960's.
You can never cross the same river twice. The river changes with the passage of time. Sometimes the river gets bigger and sometimes it dries up.
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What Americans think changing.
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I moved to SEA when I was 22 years of age. I saw quite a few arranged marriages and face saving arrangements back then.
When I was growing up in a Catholic environment in the 1950's I saw quite a few marriages stay together because of the church and others stay together because of business.
Somehow I think in the West 50 or 100 years ago staying together because family or religion or business was not uncommon.
I don't really know that divorce and Prozac currently the fad in the West is better than a couple of 19 year old mia nois.
I don't say this lightly. I have tried both. Not everyone has the same side effects I had with Prozac but in my case the mia noi's are definitely the preferred way to go. And given I was paying $200 an hour for a shrink and $100 for marriage counseling the ladies were a more economic way of dealing with the problem.
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Max2010: I have banked with Thai banks for a decade now and can do all my international transactions as easily as in any Japanese banks in Tokyo.
the last time i had a japanese bank account was many rainy seasons ago, i'm therefore not familiar with their system.
question: can you call your Thai bank, issue by phone these instructions and expect that your instructions are carried out and confirmed by call-back within max 60 minutes?
-break AUD fixed deposit mat oct 31, 2011 and sell 350k vs. €UR forward aug 26, 2011, keep rest in cash current
-switch all NZD from current account into SGD
-buy OTC ISIN DE000A1ALVC5 nominal €UR 200k @ 109.75 or better
-transfer €UR 45,500 to my account in Luxembourg (look up file)
-e-mail confirmation for transfer is on its way.
if you attempt to tell me that a Thai bank will carry out a single one of these instructions i will not bother to discuss anything connected to banks or investments with you.
Mark calls his bank.
Khun Mark, nice you call me.
Lek, please break AUD fixed deposit mat oct 31. 2011
Khun Mark your girlfriend in town today?
Lek, sell 350k vs. €UR forward aug 26, 2011, keep rest in cash current.
Khun Mark new shushi restaurant in mall I think you like very much.
Lek, switch all NZD from current account into SGD.
Khun Mark I think you like new restaurant very much after we eat go home and see my kitty. You know kitty miss you very much.
Lek, did you understand what I said?
Not really, Khun Mark what time you pick me up tonight?
7:00 OK.
OK, khun Mark you want I do banking thing for you?
No, that's OK Lek, I'll cass Singapore ANZ.
OK Khun Mark see you 7:00.
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well, would you rather have Thai leaders?
That's a tough one.
I love those old, old storys. Back when gi's could get laid for a bar of soap, etc.
Can I Retire In Pattaya
in Pattaya
Posted
I agree Pattaya is great and I also agree about the old guy regrets thing. For of all sad words of tongue or pen, The saddest are these: "It might have been!"
But I would suggest starting somewhere else besides Pattaya. Pattaya can be a killer if you don't have some Thai experience.
Pick a smaller town at first, learn some Thai and some Thai ways before you hit Pattaya.