mark45y

Guys..in reality (in general), do you actually want a gf/wife who doesnt mind if you cheat? If she was blase' about it, wouldnt it make you a bit paranoid? (Be honest now! No right or wrong answer )

To be completely honest I find sex with one partner at a time boring. I also find affairs or a mia noi tiresome and fraught with problems. Having a mia noi is just like having an extra wife, not my cup of tea.

However I don't find one partner boring. I like the same face every morning and at night as a companion and friend. I like being used to her habits and knowing what to expect.

I don't want to go off with another woman. I don't want to frequent bars or engage in risky behavior.

I don't want to live with anyone else or love more than one person. One is fine. Except for sex and then the more the merrier. Yahoo ride em cowboy.

If my lady wants a muscular hunk out of playgirl, OK by me as long as he brings along a female equivalent for me. Everybody safe and happy and honest.

Did I answer your question?

At the end of the month everyone goes to the 7/11 and pays their bills. No one uses a check or credit card. I don't know what the credit card or check usage is but as far as ordinary citizens I would say less than 10% of expenditures are traceable.

I would think that the West is 90% traceable expenses and Thailand is 10%.

Are you really trying to say that the average Thai person has a checking account?

I went to Lotus today and had a cup of coffee and watched the transactions at 6 registers. I watched roughly 100 transactions. I saw 12 credit cards used and no checks. In 6 years I have never seen a bar or restaurant take a check. In all but the more expensive restaurants I have never seen credit card taken.

I think it is fair to say that Thailand is a cash society. I take it you don't.

I got my car fixed the other day. It cost me 11,000 baht. I got it fixed at a reputable repair shop and they used Toyota parts. They didn't give me a receipt and refused my request for one. This is not unusual in Thailand. It would be completely unacceptable in the West.

My contention is that the Thai gray and black market economy is so large that it prevents meaningful statistics being recorded.

My evidence for this is walk out on the street in any Thai town and look around. What you will see is unrecorded inventories and unrecorded sales of almost everything the average Thai buys during the course of an average day.

Income and expenses are impossible to determine at the most basic level. Do most Thais live in apartments that record income? No. Food and shelter are not traceable expenses. That means food and shelter are part of the gray economy.

A tourist brings in $1000. He goes to his GF's house and stays for a week. What part of that $1000 is recorded anywhere? Food, shelter, beverages and miscellaneous services? None. A tourist goes to the West and virtually all of his expenditures are recorded.

• Yeah, everyone goes to 7-11. Well except for the millions(?) who don't. Like me. No one uses a credit card to pay bills -- except the millions who do (like my family).
• In all but the more expensive restaurants you have never seen a credit card taken? I've seen it in hundreds of low to mid-range establishments. I've been her about 4 times longer than 6 years.

• Receipts? Rarely difficult to get from a business. It would be completely unacceptable for me here to have my car serviced (or anything else of high value) at a place that refused to provide me with a receipt.

• Do most Thais live in apartments that record income? Errr...most Thais don't live in apartments. Not sure why that matters. But apartments I've lived in and/or girlfriends lived in (cheap to expensive) "record income".
• Most tourists don't go their "GF's house" to stay for a week. Not sure how much difference your scenario would make.

7/11's make a large part of the cash society possible. It is my contention that the average Thai does not pay bills by mail or credit card. What percent will you admit are living with cash only?

7000 7/11's around the end of the month or beginning of the month or almost any time you are in line someone will be paying a bill there. How many do you think per day? Multiply that by 7000 for each day a bill is paid. How many people are on one electric account? How many people pay cash to top up phone cards instead of a credit by month arrangement?

Restaurants, I think we have a difference in definition. Most Thai people eat at restaurants that don't take credit cards on a daily basis. Maybe on special occasions an MK or something like that but certainly not daily.

The great majority of Thai people don't pay recorded money for shelter. They stay in homes that are payed for. Rent? One person pays rent and the other dwellers in the room pay cash.

A million single men come to Thailand every year. A sizable percent don't pay for hotels. Nor do they get receipts for anything they buy.

Principles of Economics by N. Gregory Mankiw, 2008 estimates Thailand's gray economy at 54% of GDP

Institution Harvard Field Macroeconomics Alma mater MIT (Ph.D., 1984)

Princeton (A.B., 1980)

The US and UK and Japanese economies have a grey economy around or below 10%. You can see how Thailand's 54% makes any attempt at gathering meaningful statistics impossible.

Ok, we have to be honest, what is this debate about ?

Basically a couple of over stayers, visa-runners claiming that Thailand can't survive without them.

Now how much do they spend during their stay in Thailand ? And then how much a legitimate tourist spends for his 5 days stay in Evason ?

Agree, Thailand will have a problem if legitimate tourists stay away

But if Thailand kicks out over stayers ? Actually my feeling is Thailand will be a better place ....

The OP "If all foreigners, or let's say 90% would leave this country and tourists stay away... What would be the effects, such as hundreds of thousands of foreign money-supported families would suddenly become poor, but more on larger scale what would it do to the national economy and how they would develop themselves ? Just wonder"

It says nothing about over stayers or visa runners.

[....I imagine you live in Thailand but you must wear blinders. I assume you are married to a Thai woman but she must not talk to you.

...

All that has been proven in this thread (and several others) is that you are the one that appears to be wearing blinders.

TH

Cute, but instead of snipping something for a slam why don't you respond to my post?

"I am not trying to con you nor am I lying to you. Take off your blinders and look around your own town for a minute. Do you think that lady that does laundry pays taxes? Or the noodle shop on wheels? Or the ice cream vendor? Or the weekend flea market and the weekly markets all over Thailand. All of that is off the books.

Like I said, don't believe me. Take a walk around your town for a week and estimate how many things are sold with no records kept.

In the US, UK and Australia when you sell something and when you buy something you have to keep records and pay taxes. Most purchases are made with check or credit card. A record exists of almost all transactions. I can live in Thailand 100% cash. My phone, my rent, my utilities everything is cash."

You can pay for phone, rent, utilities here in Thailand by check, credit card or cash, just like in most western countries. I am sure that you have noticed that all those amounts include VAT, right? The only exception would be a private person renting out a unit that does not report the income, which never happens in a western country, does it? If you do rent for a company, I’m sure you have noticed that the rent is split into two parts, one which VAT is paid.

Vendor with annual turnover below 1.2 million are not required to collect VAT. This along with the sole trader laws allows small vendors to due a cash only business.

I am not doubting what you refer to as the grey economy exists, just that your statement that economic reports published by the various Thai authorities or even the many private economist that track the Thai economy don’t include it.

Again, you have not proved one of your many assertions in this whole thread, and when confronted with facts proving you are wrong, you have just moved the goalpost to another point, which is then also proved wrong.

At the end of the month everyone goes to the 7/11 and pays their bills. No one uses a check or credit card. I don't know what the credit card or check usage is but as far as ordinary citizens I would say less than 10% of expenditures are traceable.

I would think that the West is 90% traceable expenses and Thailand is 10%.

Are you really trying to say that the average Thai person has a checking account?

I went to Lotus today and had a cup of coffee and watched the transactions at 6 registers. I watched roughly 100 transactions. I saw 12 credit cards used and no checks. In 6 years I have never seen a bar or restaurant take a check. In all but the more expensive restaurants I have never seen credit card taken.

I think it is fair to say that Thailand is a cash society. I take it you don't.

I got my car fixed the other day. It cost me 11,000 baht. I got it fixed at a reputable repair shop and they used Toyota parts. They didn't give me a receipt and refused my request for one. This is not unusual in Thailand. It would be completely unacceptable in the West.

My contention is that the Thai gray and black market economy is so large that it prevents meaningful statistics being recorded.

My evidence for this is walk out on the street in any Thai town and look around. What you will see is unrecorded inventories and unrecorded sales of almost everything the average Thai buys during the course of an average day.

Income and expenses are impossible to determine at the most basic level. Do most Thais live in apartments that record income? No. Food and shelter are not traceable expenses. That means food and shelter are part of the gray economy.

A tourist brings in $1000. He goes to his GF's house and stays for a week. What part of that $1000 is recorded anywhere? Food, shelter, beverages and miscellaneous services? None. A tourist goes to the West and virtually all of his expenditures are recorded.

Whoa! Went back to work and came back to this unexpected nugget:

Cut me a little slack here Joe. When the CIA/OSS/DEA said anti drug they may have meant anti drug trade for unapproved sources only or any other variety of things. Who was going to pay for all those Chinese troops that Nationalist China abandoned in Northern Thailand? If they didn't get paid they would have gone around rampaging and raping and killing people. And what about the Thai cops and robbers and army? Someone has to pay the bills. It was hard times; Thailand didn't have much money back then. The CIA, 3 or 4 years ago released a large number of documents on the period after WW II leading up to Vietnam and that might have enlightened us all except all the references to Thailand are still blocked out. So who knows for sure. Which is kind of my point. They get along well together.

Sorry. But while even I don't try for 100% precision in my posts -- as my previous posts have been fairly off the cuff - I do typically react when people make claims that don't stand up to scrutiny. You are welcome to ignore my reaction, I suppose. Or simply say, "oops. I guess I got that wrong." (Or just scramble to backpedal as, with all due respect, you seem to be doing,

When the CIA/OSS/DEA said anti drug they may have meant anti drug trade for unapproved sources only or any other variety of things.

3 quite separate entities (though obviously a direct link between the former 2 exists). And as for what they may have meant when they "said anti-drug" (not sure what you are referring to -- got any sources on US and CIA anti-drug policy in the 50s?)...I suppose they might have meant what you suggest: but you claimed -- in order to support your erroneous claim that the DEA has been all over Thailand asince the 1950's -- that the anti-drug campaign (by implication, here in Thailand) began in the 50s . But what sort of anti-drug campaign was it that was supporting the vast drug trafficking opertion run by the Thai government/Army/police? You aren't making much sense in your effort to support your previous post.

Who was going to pay for all those Chinese troops that Nationalist China abandoned in Northern Thailand?

They weren't abandoned, they deliberately stayed behind until they were forced to leave. And they were mostly in Burma, not Thailand (yes, I know quite well how little the borders meant and of the flow through the Golden Triangle of not only material but personnel).

Who was going to pay for them? Well, the US for one.

If they didn't get paid they would have gone around rampaging and raping and killing people.

Do you seriously think that's why the drug trade was allowed to flourish? And do you think there was anything or anyone stopping them from rampaging, raping or killing people anyway?

It was about the Cold War -- like everything else then. Those troops were seen as means to (at best) retake China or (at least) be a perpetual inconvenience to the Chinese Communist government. And the drug trade was mostly about keeping the Thais on our side and enabling them to be of use to us.

And what about the Thai cops and robbers and army? Someone has to pay the bills. It was hard times; Thailand didn't have much money back then

That's one of the weakest apologies I've ever seen for gigantic and systemic corruption and criminal activity by a government; hard times for whom? The people in that trade made hundreds of millions. And the US was dumping loads of money into Thailand (including pay for the cops and the Army) so it's hardly the case that they needed to deal in opium and heroin to get by.

Again, it wasn't out of sympathy for impoverished Thais -- it was about geopolitical realities as perceived at the time.

The CIA, 3 or 4 years ago released a large number of documents on the period after WW II leading up to Vietnam and that might have enlightened us all except all the references to Thailand are still blocked out. So who knows for sure.

Got any sort of source for that or an idea where I can find what you are talking about? In any case, plenty is known about what went on here.

Which is kind of my point. They get along well together.

Who gets along with whom? And how is that a point? Speaking of playing fast and loose with facts...no offense intended but methinks you are doing a bit of that. Sorry for the lack of slack...

edited to try and sort out format

My only point in mentioning the OSS and DEA was a reference to statistics and the fact that they along with the Thai government both treat them casually. I didn't think founding dates of the organizations were important to the issue.

I did not also mean to justify any countries behavior during that time period.

Nor did I wish to go off topic and open up a thread about drug enforcement or traffic during the period.

All I was writing about was those two agencies handling of factual situations leaves a bit to be desired by those interested in truth.

I was reading the analysis of CIA operations by Thomas L.Ahern 1961 to 1973. It would be a lot more interesting with the blanks filled in but I can't find anything but the censored versions.

Apologies for the DEA dates, in the context of what I was talking about I didn't think they were important.

America started its anti drug campaign in Thailand in the 1950's.

Not so much. Indeed the CIA was in up to its neck in the drug trade in SEA in the 50s -- they weren't stopping it they were largely facilitating it. And the fact remains, the DEA wasn't here becasue it didn't exist.

The OSS field operations were over in Europe (because the war in Europe ended) before Asia and a large number of American operatives moved to Bangkok.

Well, you didn't say after May 1945 -- you said during World War II (which was a lot longer than the 3 months you seem to be talking about). A large number? Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by large -- but half of the OSS? Seems unlikely.

The reason for the reference to the OSS and DEA is they have something in common with Thailand. All three play fast and loose with statistics.

Uhmmm...OK.

Cut me a little slack here Joe. When the CIA/OSS/DEA said anti drug they may have meant anti drug trade for unapproved sources only or any other variety of things. Who was going to pay for all those Chinese troops that Nationalist China abandoned in Northern Thailand? If they didn't get paid they would have gone around rampaging and raping and killing people. And what about the Thai cops and robbers and army? Someone has to pay the bills. It was hard times; Thailand didn't have much money back then. The CIA, 3 or 4 years ago released a large number of documents on the period after WW II leading up to Vietnam and that might have enlightened us all except all the references to Thailand are still blocked out. So who knows for sure. Which is kind of my point. They get along well together.

[....I imagine you live in Thailand but you must wear blinders. I assume you are married to a Thai woman but she must not talk to you.

...

All that has been proven in this thread (and several others) is that you are the one that appears to be wearing blinders.

TH

Cute, but instead of snipping something for a slam why don't you respond to my post?

"I am not trying to con you nor am I lying to you. Take off your blinders and look around your own town for a minute. Do you think that lady that does laundry pays taxes? Or the noodle shop on wheels? Or the ice cream vendor? Or the weekend flea market and the weekly markets all over Thailand. All of that is off the books.

Like I said, don't believe me. Take a walk around your town for a week and estimate how many things are sold with no records kept.

In the US, UK and Australia when you sell something and when you buy something you have to keep records and pay taxes. Most purchases are made with check or credit card. A record exists of almost all transactions. I can live in Thailand 100% cash. My phone, my rent, my utilities everything is cash."

I have been reading Thai news for a few years now and I have come to the conclusion they have no meaningful statistics and never have had any.

The unofficial economy is so broad and pervasive that no economic statistics make any sense.

Population statistics, you gotta be kidding.

I can tell you how many bars are in Cleveland with plus or minus .01% accuracy. How many bars are in Pattaya? I don't think anyone knows within 5000. I don't even think you could get anyone to agree on what a bar is, let alone how many there are.

Think of how many people could use that information. All sorts of government and tourist agencies and marketing and advertising businesses and suppliers of the industry. But no one knows.

It is not just bars. How many businesses run off that electrical outlet? Oh, I don't know on Monday there is a bar, two noodle shops and a stuffed animal seller. On Wednesday a CD shop. Chinese mobile temple and two bird sellers. You get the idea.

Thais defend themselves by being confusing and then acting dumb. Or acting dumb and then being confusing. During WW II Half of the American OSS was hidden in Bangkok right under the nose of the Japanese and the Japanese are pretty smart people as a rule. That is why the American spies got along so well with the Thais and the Brits had problems with them. The Americans didn't care and the Thais didn't know. The Brits both cared and knew but the Thais still didn't know. So there you go. At the end of WW II there was nary a Brit to be seen anywhere but the Yanks were all over the place. The DEA is all over Thailand and has been since the 1950's. Accurate statistics? They don't have any. They really don't care and the Thais don't know. Same with all of the NGO's. If you want to be a successful NGO in Thailand the first requisite is not caring, because no one is going to give you any accurate data.

During WW II Half of the American OSS was hidden in Bangkok...

Err...I suspect that might be a bit off.

The DEA is all over Thailand and has been since the 1950's.

The DEA has only existed since 1973.

Don't really understand your references even if they were accurate -- what does the presence of the OSS or the DEA have to do with the OP?

America started its anti drug campaign in Thailand in the 1950's.

The OSS field operations were over in Europe (because the war in Europe ended) before Asia and a large number of American operatives moved to Bangkok.

The reason for the reference to the OSS and DEA is they have something in common with Thailand. All three play fast and loose with statistics.

The tourist economy accounts for between 7 and 30% of the real Thai economy. Could Thai economists figure out the real number? No, because so much of the economy is off the books.

If it is 30% and the Farangs left it would be a catastrophe. If it is 5% and the Farangs left it would be a severe hardship.

Can Thailand do OK on their own in a modern world? Does Thailand have 3G?

What would Thailand do if China turns off the water? It better have some real good Farang friends in the wings and that means involving Farangs in Thai business.

Anyone who is anybody in Thailand goes to school in another country. Thais realize their education system is substandard and their technology has much to learn from the West.

Because it's a well-known fact that men cheat more often than women. Anyway, the word "partner" is a boring, PC word thought up by loony lefties with ginger beards and leather patches on the elbows of their jackets. Sorry, not leather, they're all bloody vegans as well.

Why does Admin. continually run these ridiculous stories? When do I ever see anything positive come to my e-mail account. Nothing but crap.

well, I guess you could have clicked on the flood story headline in the newsletter instead of this one to complain. Unless the flooding is crap too?

No just this one is crap -- it also appears above the flood story as if to give it more credence / importance.

What's with the sexist generalization "The only "man" you can trust is a dead one" ?? Don't you think it should read "partner" as opposed to "man" ? But ok TV didn't write the piece, so for balance I'll keep an eye an out for a thread written by some burned farang entitled: "How to tell when a Thai woman is lying -- her lips are moving" or some other trite observation; it's never going to happen.

I would say you are correct about most women however Thai women are not most women.

It has been roughly the same deal in Thailand since the French and Portuguese started recording it in their sailing logs 400 years ago.

If you came to Asia in the 1960's you would have found relatively liberal sexual atmospheres in many countries. Only two have stayed the same. Thailand and the Philippines.

My life taken as a whole I really don't have much experience with bar women but since I first arrived in Thailand in the 1960's and up till now I find Thai women more aggressive sexually than any other society I have been exposed to. That is not to say they aren't shy and modest but along with that is an always open invitation to play.

I have found this the case in 20 year old Thai women and 60 year old Thai woman. My first Thai language instructor was in her 70's, MA from an American university and even she hit on me.

We're talking about men, NOT women. Women are designed to be monogomous, men aren't. There is a huge difference between men and women.

its the same every where......humans are not meant to be monogamous...tell me another mammal that is... some of us try but its always a test

The OP was talking about both men and women to be accurate. Also, one of the major differences between men and women went out the window with the introduction of birth control pills.

A woman now has control (at least in theory) over her reproductive rights.

I also think the reason more women cheat in Thailand is because so few have cats as pets.

its the same every where......humans are not meant to be monogamous...tell me another mammal that is... some of us try but its always a test

tigers are monogomous

usoPreviewPopup

Aren't bonobo monkeys a bit closer to us genetically?

I know MUCH more Farang Fathers that DON'T look after the Wife's Kids form previous relationships etc, than those that do..

In many cases, the Kid up in the Village with Grandma isn't even really spoken about, no Pictures or anythign like that either heaven forbid, the Kid just appears to be dismissed a lot of the time from both the Fraang & the " Wife's " psyche.

Of course $ has to get back to the Kid, but no parenting or emotional stuff gets back there from it's Birth Mother & it's now " Step Father ".

All of the Women in teh situations i mention above are of course Ex Bar Girls.

I do wonder about the mentality behind Men that willingly look after another Man's Children & why they would do that especially when they don't have their own Kids with their Wife, when they simply do not have to & when there are numerous other " Ladies " out there that don't have Kids that they could start their own Families with.

Fair play to them, but the need their bumps felt in my opinion..

I have a Guy opposite me, he's mid 60's, he's got a " Wife ", nice House, Car etc yet there are 2 x Thai Daughters from her previous Marraige, both 100% Thai, one is 7 Years Old & the other is 3 Years Old..

I have enquired as to how all of that, the initial meeting of the 2 people, the Marraige, the Car, the House, the perfect Family Environment all happened so quickly, but my question got dimissed pretty quickly by my Daughter's Mother whom i asked, & that was that..

I asked because i couldn't work out & still can't work out, why a 60 somethign Year old Man would take on 2 x young Daughters that weren't his, when he has grown up Children & even Grand Children, that are older than them ??

Uh, perhaps that silly little word "love" might have something to do with it?

Love ??

It's not a silly little word, but it is thrown around a little too often for my liking, real love anyway & especially in Thailand, a place where people " fall in love " in 24 hours..

Bear in mind also that this Man is 65 Years old & his Wife is 32, & i'm not too sure there is a whole lot of " love " there to be honest do you ??

I'd say it was a Marraige more for convenience of both parties more than the stuff Fairytales & Movies are made from so where " love " comes into where the little one's are concerned, i really don't know.

But if you wnat to call it " love ", who am i to argue..

& if the Kids are getting a better life with the Guy & better Schooling etc then happy days all round & i take my hat off to him.

Note to add : Neither Kid can speak a word of English though so i'm not sure how much influence he actually has on them or how much actual " love " as we know it can be shared, as he can't speak a word of Thai either..

I loved my grandfather a lot more than I loved my parents. You have to think about this for a while in context with your above statement.

When I was teaching school in Thailand if the school burned down I know which kids I would have saved first. Harsh I guess but that is love. You can call it like or love, still I know I would have grabbed Gam and carried her out of the building before any of the other kids. If her parents both died, I would have taken her to raise as my own in a heartbeat. People love old people, like I did my grandfather or kids. I think it is hard to love a wife because marriage seemed to me more like a war than a relationship, with power and dominance issues and strategy and explosions. My grandfather never smacked me nor did Gam. Thai women have routinely chased me with knives and cleavers or sharp tongues.

If a man has a mistress, what does a woman have ???? a mastress ?????

And what does a lady boy have?

My gosh I have been reading Thai Visa for years and by the tone of the posts here everyone is a faithful spouse. Gee the above article is news to me!

I was watching the head guy at Buckingham palace on the BBC talk about the upcoming wedding preparations. Absolutely perfect English. Anywhere in the world with no accent he was perfect. Americans would have understood him perfectly, or anyone else. They interviewed some others in the kitchen and their English was filled with accents but not the head man, he was perfect. Whoever he is they need to record him as a model for how all of us should speak when teaching.

That's what I said, but millions of whose lives? It surely wasn;t Japanese. Plus, I'm not real sure it was millions. I was exaggerating a little. In any case, it wasn't a step forward for humanity,

Yes. Exaggerated, just a little. Most will absorb such other exaggerations as gospel, though.

There is another thread which highlights the hazards of a sense of humour... there are many idiots amongst us who will accept things like that at face value.

Remember, we live in a post-Darwinian age in which we cannot rely on evolution to rid of idiots - not in the short term, anyway. You are going to have to make allowances for us....

SC

The atomic bomb saved a lot of Thai lives, since this is a Thai centric forum. The Brits and Indians were massing on the Burma border to invade Thailand and take their pound of salt for the Thai collusion with the Japanese that led to the fall of Singapore and Burma. The most likely scenario even if the Thais would have surrendered as a result of the British attack would have been the loss of a large part of the rice crop to the Allies and the starvation of hundreds of thousands of Thais.

Pretty much what happened when the Chinese troops invaded Hanoi and a million Vietnamese starved.

Completely agree with Scott but I thought the question under debate was what if Falangs left Thailand. If on the other hand the question is will Falangs leave the answer is a resounding no. Nor do Thais with any sense of the economy want them to leave in the least little bit.

Look at how long that 30%withholding of investment funds lasted. Or how much money Thailand has spent supporting the dollar.

Economists in Thailand realize the nature of being a client state and the requirements of foreign investment and building of infrastructure; that's one of the reasons they send their kids to school in England instead of educating them in Thailand.

Just wait... till Myanmar is accepted as tourist desination again. 50% of the tourists will stay away.

Just wait, till the children of the fugutives, who returned and are returning to Vietnam really start their work: much of Thai industry will not be compatative ( not for prices, but in understanding of the Western way of doing business)

Now already China is taking over one product after the other of former Thai exports. In my case: bamboo shoots, baby corn, mixed vegetables, sweet cor, lychee, longan, mango slices, papaya dices, pineapple, oyster and soya sauce, chili sauce, instant noodles, rice vermicelli, wasabi, sesame oil. For me, 95% of my business is already gone away from Thailand.

Remind: for the inflow of one US$/Euro it generates a multiple effect into a local economy ( multiplier effect, can be 10-25 x the inflow effect) : remind the farmer, who has less money to spend, so..will reduce his spending, so others will earn less, and reduce their spending etc. Same the factory worker, the container truck driver, the can maker, the bottle maker, the label printer.

When all pensionario's would leave Thailand, just think of the tailor, the condo owner, the taxi driver, the restaurant owner.. from making now a profit, they will plunge in having a shortage on income, so will save on many fields, resulting in a depression.

You think, one Thai understands this ?

Ask samran.

What, no Star Trek exasperation there Mark?

Oh yeah, I speak for all Thai's. A common TV (mis)conception. That, and we are all morons. I'll just pop out and ask what my neighbors have to say, shall I?

In the meantime, you want me to respond to a poster who is whinging because the higher baht and the ASEAN-China free trade agreement are doing him in?

Well, I can help. Kick out foreign investment, baht will drop like a brick, exports will be cheaper and voila puipuitom's problems will be solved. His export prices FOB will be cheaper than china's.

Or we could run Thailand like Vietnam. Out of control inflation. Currency falling like a brick. Yeah, great economic credentials there in VN.

The rest of his post is a classic one often written by expats with chips on their shoulders. "Just you wait" they say "Cambodia, Vietnam and Burma" are going to show you up.

I say - good on those countries for bringing themselves up. Still got a long way to go though.

I guess that's a no. But darn, you sure are quick. Good job.

Just wait... till Myanmar is accepted as tourist desination again. 50% of the tourists will stay away.

Just wait, till the children of the fugutives, who returned and are returning to Vietnam really start their work: much of Thai industry will not be compatative ( not for prices, but in understanding of the Western way of doing business)

Now already China is taking over one product after the other of former Thai exports. In my case: bamboo shoots, baby corn, mixed vegetables, sweet cor, lychee, longan, mango slices, papaya dices, pineapple, oyster and soya sauce, chili sauce, instant noodles, rice vermicelli, wasabi, sesame oil. For me, 95% of my business is already gone away from Thailand.

Remind: for the inflow of one US$/Euro it generates a multiple effect into a local economy ( multiplier effect, can be 10-25 x the inflow effect) : remind the farmer, who has less money to spend, so..will reduce his spending, so others will earn less, and reduce their spending etc. Same the factory worker, the container truck driver, the can maker, the bottle maker, the label printer.

When all pensionario's would leave Thailand, just think of the tailor, the condo owner, the taxi driver, the restaurant owner.. from making now a profit, they will plunge in having a shortage on income, so will save on many fields, resulting in a depression.

You think, one Thai understands this ?

Ask samran.

I consider that Chinese language will be most important for thai people soon. Sutep is genius man. He knows much more than we.

How do you spell www in Mandarin?

www OR da bu liu-da bu liu-da bu liu

Chinese also use the 26 letters of our alphabet to type Chinese characters.

LaoPo

Won't take long to change over the keyboards and get the brilliant Thai engineers up to speed with the Chinese alphabet.

It is called being a tease and why some men go gay after so many years of being straight. You see the old guys who come over to Thailand after 60 years of heterosexual behavior and have finally had it with the tease thing.

It is one of the reasons I moved into a nudist colony in the States. I got tired of wondering what was behind the pillow.

It is also one of the reasons I like Pattaya. There are a lot of female flashers in Pattaya. Never saw many in Iowa.

Go into any Thai manufacturing facility and see how much of the equipment necessary for production was made in Thailand.

I don't know if you know how stuff is made but I will give you one example to illustrate.

Take something simple like a gear. First you make a machine and then you make a tool. You put the tool in the machine and it cuts, or shapes or shaves steel to make a gear. Thailand does not have the capability to make the machine or the machine tool so it imports those from other countries and also the iron and steel to make the products. So Thailand like it or not is heavily dependent on other countries for its means of production.

It is not about bar girls or Issan it is about production. Thailand can put together parts of a numbered puzzle but it can't make the puzzle yet.

Perhaps someday Thailand will invest in the necessary physical and intellectual infrastructure but for now they rely on foreign assistance.

Yeah, I really think you have got it wrong.

Firstly, just about every country in the world gets something from somewhere else. It is called globalisation. The car industry in LOS has inputs from South Africa, Germany, Australia and Japan...and vice versa. The global supply chain allows companies to source things from where they are best made, for the best price. Location is irrelevant these days. Quality is.

Thailand churns out oodles of engineers and well trained personnel. They might not be the ones who do the fixit jobs around the house, or repair your car, but walk into the umpteen consulting engineering firms, refineries, factories, and you'll see plenty of well trained Thai's doing exactly the jobs you describe as being 'missing' from Thailand. I've seen more than a few Thai trained petroleum engineers working outside of Thailand, as well as finance executives.

I just went to a seminar the other week, where an Australian company who supplies the big boys (Ford, the Japanese makers) set up shop in Thailand. Initially they planned to produce low tech inputs however they quickly found that it was possible to produce the precisioned engineered stuff without a problem using exclusively Thai staff. They now export from Thailand as well.

This is a story I see repeated often.

But, to repeat a theme from an earlier post, if you don't move in those circles, you simple don't see it. And all you are left with is the 200 baht a day electrician who has totally mis-wired your place to get an impression of skill levels.

Globalization. Everyone depends on everyone else. No one can make anything alone. We are all interconnected,

No.

There are industrial countries that make machines and machine tools (in broad terms). Those are the things that make everything else.

There are two approaches to making things if you don't have them. 1. You can simply buy the things to make the product. This is what Thailand does. 2. You can buy a license to manufacture the machines that make the product. This is what Germany does.

Germany can exist doing everything in German. China can exist manufacturing everything in Chinese. Thailand can't exist without adopting another language for education, production, research and development. The knowledge base is not there in Thai. Of course language is only one small problem the larger problem is how do you start.

Thailand falls into that group of nations that are heavily dependent on technology from other countries. Nothing wrong with that. A lot of other countries are in the same boat. But to say they are not more heavily dependent on foreign technology than more industrialized nations is not correct.

In the 1960s there were only eight public universities offering baccalaureate engineering programs and most of those were in civil engineering.

The first university in Thailand, namely Chulalongkorn University, was established only 80 years ago.

Only a few institutes in Thailand, such as Sirindhorn International Institute of Technology of Thammasat University, Assumption University (ABAC), and Asian University of Science and Technology (AUST), offer international bachelor degree programs in engineering in English.

You really can't expect miracles. You don't go from almost nothing in 1960 to a fully functioning industrial society 40 years later, especially without a lot of foreign assistance that Thailand has refused. The attitude of most Thais is reflective of your own, to pretend the problem does not exist.

Thailand needs help and that help comes from other countries. You can put all the raw materials for an airplane in a factory with a whole lot of bright Thai people and an airplane is not going to get built.

Again the dominant theme is foreign assistance until Thais can build, manufacture and develop things on their own. My God man most of Thailand was using water buffaloes for transportation when Germany was building rocket ships. Give it some time.

But you sound like you think that without the few pennies some old farangs toss up too Issan for their x-bar girls is gonna make some kind of meaningful, even measurable difference to the economy, and thats just funny.

I agree. I think the tables have turned and many, many more Thais are far more well-off than they were when I first came here in 1989 or 1990. Almost all the Thais I know have sizable bank accounts, nice homes and cars (paid for in cash), and couldn't give a rats ass about money foreigner's spend here. Also we are now in a global economy and many Thais trade over the Internet and International sales account for a large share of this financial independence.

On the other hand, many, many more farangs I see in Thailand now are of the kii-nok variety with very little money to their names and just barely getting by living in Thailand.

Also a lot of farangs only know BG's and low-class people that they meet in bars in Isaan, etc. so they really don't have a true understanding of how average middle-class Thais live. Even the Karen woman who cleans my house has her kids in a very good private school in Chiang Mai. So yes, some farangs do have an exaggerated sense of their importance here in the Kingdom.

When Germany or Russia or Japan wants to make something they go out and make it. When Thailand wants to make something they go out and buy it from another country. That is not because they are stupid it is because they are a little country. Thailand has demonstrated they would rather be poor and uneducated than become a client state of a larger nation on a number of occasions through history.

Depending on what percent you use as a multiplier the real economic impact of tourism is between 20 and 30% of GNP. Any country that loses between 20 and 30% of revenue is in big trouble.

Thailand also has a very large auto export business that is heavily Dependant of foreign management and supplies.

Thailand does not make the machinery to assemble autos nor the machine tools to produce the parts.

Anecdotes about the wealth of your neighbors is hardly hard economic data. Thailand like most countries is very dependent of larger countries for means of production. Thailand only supplies the labor not the research and development or any complicated production machinery. Making a car is pretty simple making the machinery to turn a block of metal into an engine is not.

Go into any Thai manufacturing facility and see how much of the equipment necessary for production was made in Thailand.

I don't know if you know how stuff is made but I will give you one example to illustrate.

Take something simple like a gear. First you make a machine and then you make a tool. You put the tool in the machine and it cuts, or shapes or shaves steel to make a gear. Thailand does not have the capability to make the machine or the machine tool so it imports those from other countries and also the iron and steel to make the products. So Thailand like it or not is heavily dependent on other countries for its means of production.

It is not about bar girls or Issan it is about production. Thailand can put together parts of a numbered puzzle but it can't make the puzzle yet.

Perhaps someday Thailand will invest in the necessary physical and intellectual infrastructure but for now they rely on foreign assistance.

What if the Thai-national is 60?

The Thai elite, who are presently running the country, do not like farangs. It would appear that they are a conservative group that feel farang only bring problems to Thailand. Criminals in hiding, child-abusers, patrons of the naughty girl districts, etc. 30-day tourist visas seem to be the only visas they want to tolerate. The country seems to be in political turmoil. Time will tell.

The reason the Thai elite don't like Farang is that they elevate, country girls to their level almost overnight?

jb1

Gay falang are OK then? Or what about the guys like me who have a hi so uni grad who is working on her PhD? It couldn't be that Thais are as xenophobic as Japanese and Koreans? Actually Thais are not near as xenophobic as Japanese and Koreans. Actually you are just misinformed.