ColPyat

So while I'd agree that the journalist the OP wrote about is a snob, I think there's more to the situation than that.

Obviously it doesn't really help how some farang and their rent-a-wifes behave, there still is here a huge class issue which has very little to do with us farang. But through our spouses we are directly affected.

The present and the coming political problem here in Thailand are to at least some part caused by this almost archaic social hierarchy in a rapid progress of collapse.

You're probably right, ColPyat. Good to see you posting, I haven't had the chance to read your interesting opinions for a while.

Just busy in a bit of trench warfare in the news folder (the rescue thread)

If memory serves, he wrote his book in the mid 50's and was killed about 10 years later. He was remanded as a communist but found not guilty {after @ 6 years in goal}.

Regards

PS He was killed in fighting in Sakhon Nakhon.

here's a link, with several other links that might lead to interesting reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chit_Phumisak

So while I'd agree that the journalist the OP wrote about is a snob, I think there's more to the situation than that.

Obviously it doesn't really help how some farang and their rent-a-wifes behave, there still is here a huge class issue which has very little to do with us farang. But through our spouses we are directly affected.

The present and the coming political problem here in Thailand are to at least some part caused by this almost archaic social hierarchy in a rapid progress of collapse.

It might be worth your while googling 'sakdina' to illuminate a little of the Thai class system. Old habits are hard to break.

Thanks for that, I had never heard the term sakdina before. So there we have it -- the Thai caste system was actually codified into law. More flexible than the Indian system, but still a system of institutionalized social inequality.

And there is one more difference - the Indian government and the many social activists do make huge efforts in trying to loosen the cast system. Even some religious orders there try that. In Thailand, the remnants of Sakdina are just glanced over, and there never was a wide public debate on its effects.

One infamous Thai socialist - Chit Phumisak - wrote a book on it: "Chom Na Sakdina Thai" - exposing Thai feudalism. He was imprisoned, and then not long after his release he was killed.

I still see no difference between this and the UK for example.

Turn up at a posh London socialite party with a liverpudlian girl, or a Jamaican guy and you are likely to receive exactly the same disdain from just their accents. The only difference here is that comparatively rich Westerners are in the main married to (previously) very poor Thai ladies, whereas back in the UK people generally marry within similar class.

Obviously the first thing that enters someones mind when first meeting a couple who have obviously different social standing is how did they meet this person?, I'm sure its VERY much the same back West for people with Russian wives etc...

People will always view with supsicion those who 'marry up', marry older guys etc... thats why there are terms such as 'gold digger' etc...

The upper classes in the west do not spend all their days and nights at "posh" parties. That is just stuff from the movies. They also have normal lives.

And no, when your wife is well behaved than she will be treated with respect and politeness, regardless of her background. Maybe some newly rich upstarts in the west have a bug up their behinds, i don't know much of them sorts, but generally speaking - the real upper classes will not treat people with the disdain the ones here do.

thailand is an incredibly class devided society - something which might remind of the cast system in India.

Sure...

Whereas back in the West everyone has at least a couple of prostitites in their circle of friends, dont they?

There is a bit of a difference.

In the eyes of some elitist people here, it does actually not matter if your wife was a prostitute or not. If she is from a poor background - she will be treated the same, which is miserably bad.

Over the years i have learned to be very careful about socializing in Thailand, and where better not to take my wife around to safe her some painful experience. I love classical music, for example, but after some very ugly encounters with some bad mannered elitist people i will stay with my CD collection while in Thailand, and reserve concert visits for when we are in Europe.

It is amazing how medieval class is still treated here in Thailand, and how little social interaction apart from patron/client relationships the different classes still have.

The organizations themselves have to insist on only maintaining the highest level of personnel.

Failing that, the general lack of trust by the public persists, as demonstrated here by the vast majority of Thais ignoring the foundation donation seeker that makes frequent rounds soliciting funds.

It's the general public's way of telling these foundations to clean up their act.

Well, yes, and a lot of what you describe is done internally on a regular base. Just because it is not in the news, does not mean that they do not have internal disciplinary actions. Crews get dissolved, members do get the boot.

But there are limits, the same limits that you can find here in any organizational structure here in Thailand. Root cause is the power of the informal networks and influence over due process.

Basic fact though is that in the last 15 years or so the foundations have cleaned up much of their act. !3 years or so ago here in Bangkok clearly defined areas and duty shifts have been introduced, which led to the ceasing of the major hostilities between the two biggest foundations here - Por teck Tueng and Ruamkatanyu. There are still conflicts, especially in the suburbs, between the Bangkok foundations and the smaller upcountry outfits (as seen in the OP), and occasionally there are territorial disputes between neighboring crews of the same foundation.

The training of the volunteers has improved, and so has their equipment.

And yes, there is still much to be done, but many things are very difficult to change. When the whole society has such a huge informal power network and corruption - you simply cannot expect the rescue foundations to be free of that.

And, as i have already posted a year ago - the so called foundations making donation seeking rounds are fake outfits. They are not legitimate rescue organisations. You cannot blame the established foundations though for those fake outfits - there you have to blame the law enforcement and the parts of the civil service that cover and protect those outfits through the endemic system of corruption and patronage.

Por Teck Tueng volonteers (and Ruamkatanyu, i believe as well) are not allowed to solicit for donations. People who want to donate can come to their head quarters and make donations there (and if you make friends with the local team donations in form of equipment might be accepted, not cash though). If you see them soliciting for donations - you can report them to their headquarters, and there will be action taken as this is against the rules.

Cornered?

Please, your strawman arguments are tiresome and inane.

And your argument that there isn't an existing alternative is uninformed and illogical. There is always an alternative. The hard part is getting them implemented. Or the current setup properly enforced.

As always with debates where you are involved it always ends up at this level. Why do you think this is?

I know, it's everyone else's faults.

Alright, and instead of staying with the topic we have to disintegrate into completely off topic personalization of the discussion.

The current set up is as well enforced as possible in Thailand. This is not the west - this is a developing nation with huge problems. Why do you expect these foundations to run as well as in the west, when there is no part of Thailand that is running any better?

Now, then, tell us the alternative to the long established foundations? Who else has the equipment, the infrastructure, the knowledge, the personnel, the funding, the training, and the here in Thailand all important contacts? What then is the exact realistic alternative to the foundations?

What about a positive contribution to the topic now, and not endless moaning and complaining about something you have obviously no direct knowledge about?

Clearly the things I described around taking place as the reported events haven't lead to a single canceled contract.

What you have presented is excuses and personal attacks. As per usual.

They have though resulted in many volunteers being kicked out of the foundations, also being prosecuted and convicted.

You want to cancel the whole contract. Well, great, who is then going to pick up the injured? Such a system is not built in a day.

The problem is that you have cornered yourself into a completely unrealistic what if scenario out of which you come with not very informed comments, and get cranky when this is exposed.

Again - i do not deny that there are many faults with the system. Nobody does. But there is no existing alternative. So - we have to live with it, and the only thing we can do is improve upon what there is.

You are confused again since I haven't said the government should run this. Infact, if you really wanted to know, it would be handled with contracts against the state that are negatiated and can be canceled if improper things happend, like patients getting robbed.

You say that I'm a part of the system? You better drive yourself to the emergency room, you must have hit your head.

Ps. As a non-citiscen I'm not ALLOWED to vote or work with anything regarding politics here. Ds.

No, i said that your attitude is part of the problem.

As a non-citizen you are allowed to work if you have a work permit. You are just not allowed to stand for political office, but if you are qualified you can be an academic, an adviser, a consultant, a journalist, etc.

You are also allowed to make donations, even if you don't have a work permit. And maybe slightly in conflict with an anal interpretation of the law - you can without any problems become a volunteer yourself, as one of the board members here is, and even getting rather famous for it.

What you come up with is what is considered an excuse (and a lame one as well), and not an explanation, for not doing something.

Anyhow - when improper things happen, complaints are made, and convictions happen, then the responsible volunteers are sent to prison already now.

What you described is reality - these foundations have contracts with the state, have legally defined areas of responsibility, and have to supply paperwork.

What do you think is going on here? That they are just a bunch of thugs?

Again - some of these foundations are huge, and their social engagement covers many areas, not just the rescue. They work together with the authorities.

Unfortunate in the fact that he worked as an English teacher ... linking the two terms together, paedophile and English teacher gives the vast majority of hard-working, caring English teachers in Bangkok a bad name.

Peter

lets hope the big boys in the us jail find out what this scum bag got up to angry:

Will he not be sectioned to keep him away from the general prison population ?

This is what we do in UK.

The US system is a bit more brutal. Not excusing what the guy did, but responsibility of the state is to treat prisoners in a human way regardless of his crime.

Here's an interesting website on the state of prisons in the US, and the things that bloke is most likely going to have to endure.

http://www.spr.org/

Much like we are now since you yourself said no-one wanted it to improve...

Yes, very true.

The only difference is that you (the "libertarian") are relying on the government, while i (the "social democrat" who favors an increased role of the government in social security) am realist enough to understand that private engagement of concerned individuals is presently the much quicker way to improve than waiting for a completely disinterested government.

Personally, as long as you refuse to engage yourself in any form, you have no right to complain, especially in light of your often stated political conviction - being a libertarian - which philosophy is individual liberties and individual responsibilities as opposed to a powerful government.

You want a better system - then do something about it other than just complaining. There is a lot you personally could do other than waiting for a response by the government. Your attitude is part of the problem - and not part of the solution.

I wouldn't donate, I would vote for a complete overhaul of the system from the ground up. As with a lot of things here. Sorry to disappoint you.

Yeah, well, good luck with that.

Lets be realistic - vote as much as you want - it won't happen. And instead of getting better care, which is your point as i understand, you will be stuck in a purely academic what if debate which changes nothing at all.

Colpyat,

can you explain the proliferation of yellow rescue stickers on vehicles?

The sticker is a man seen from behind in yellow coveralls carrying an injured or dead girl in a way that would injure a person even further if not dead (I know, it's just a sticker but to me it's quite representative of an ailing system).

I've seen trucks carrying anything from dead fish to scrap metal and they have that sticker on.

Are those stickers handed out by officials or can they be bought at the local market by anyone wanting to be a hero?

Does the sticker make the vehicle an ambulance or it's driver a rescue worker?

Are there as many people driving around with that sticker on as there are ordinary civilians wearing jackets, caps and t-shirts with POLICE on them?

It's a bit of a fashion - the mandate of coolness.

It's not an officially recognized sticker of the foundations. Many members have those stickers on their cars, but i guess, judging from the amount of the stickers seen, also many normal folks have it on because it is cool.

I don't know if these particular stickers are for sale, but many of those stickers are self made. In the many empty hours waiting for something to happen one or the other creative guy on a team is making stickers for himself and his mates.

The officially recognized stickers are the names and signs of the foundations, and the radio call numbers. These ones are not supposed to be on non member's and unregistered vehicles (but of course this is not followed often, and does lead to internal conflicts).

But, the cars of the volunteers are their own private cars. Most of them do not have the money to have completely separate cars only used for their rescue activities, and have to use these trucks also for their professional lives. Their trucks are a source of pride - they constantly better their stickers, tune them, spend lots of money to improve this and the other bit on them. Hours of debate where to source better alarm lights, new horns, get better radios and antennas. Don't mock their cars. There are increasingly enforced rules concerning the trucks, and the equipment they are supposed to have. So, they should have a covered back.

Problem though is, of course, that it all comes out of the pockets of the volunteers themselves, and making money is not that easy at times. So, they have to make do with what they have.

Unfortunately the wildly spread rumors have direct affects on the lack of equipment and quality of care. A while ago I have tried to get some funding for friends of mine by approaching companies asking them for donations in form of equipment, etc (not cash!).

Due to the bad reputation of the foundations these companies were not interested. The point that this is the only functioning system in existence, and should therefore be improved, did not make any impression.

We can go on and on about what is wrong. The problem though is that presently there just is no alternative, and neither is there much political will by any government to improve much. It's down to private engagement, both by the volunteers and the general public. If anybody who complains about the system as it is would make a bit of an effort to improve, be it by personal engagement or by equipment donations - we would have a much better EMS system here. But only complaining and spreading of rumors does not help - it makes things worse.

Why do westerners insist on saying the word "farang" is derogatory even after living long time in Thailand?

Is it because in the west people hate each other so much that they like to think of everything being offensive as long as it is not a praise?

Do they have a learning disability?

I find westerners take offense easily, don't they?

Some Farang may be offended by the term itself. I know that is a very neutral term based on a root term - the franks - and am not offended by it.

What at times is offensive is the context and intonation in which this term is used by some, and that will receive a suitable response from me.

CP wrote: "because they directly receive money from the hospital per injured."

No-one sees a problem with this?

And btw, I fail to see how being upset with something bad is slagging off on Thailand. If I or, heaven forbid, my son or anyone else in my family gets hurt in an accident I want the care to be topnotch and professional. Being dragged from a wreck without any medical supervision and then tossed in the back of a lorry is the opposite of this. Then I rather people would just hail down a taxi and get me to the hospital that way. Would probably be more comfortable...

You should be upset with those that think everything is fine and nothing needs to be changed.

Of course you want top notch care. But you won't get that in Thailand. That is one of the downsides of living in a country with only a very rudimentary social security net, in which the only functioning EMS system are these private Thai Chinese foundations.

These volunteers do improve though. More and more of them have now basic EMS equipment such as spinal boards, and air supports for fractures, and basic medicine packs (all paid for by the volunteers themselves, and not cheap). Their EMS training is improving as well. You would be much worse off in a taxi.

no maybe's ,

spotters fee's are paid .

Some hospitals do that, and some crews take advantage of it.

But by far not all, and it would be a mistake to generalize without having proof.

The crews i am working with send the injured to the most suitable hospital, which generally is the hospital the injured is insured in (if not too far), the nearest public hospital, but also trying to avoid the hospitals that are known to blackmail injured such as happened in the OP.

According to the report I read they did not take her to the nearest hospital which was a govt. one but to the private hospital further away.

Maybe the private hospital offers something for rescue workers bringing them customers?

Yes, maybe. These things happen.

But maybe it was one of the other reasons i have listed.

In a way I agree although I would not call Thai society dysfunctional; maybe in comparison to other societies but I think Thai society in itself functions quite well in its own right and as such will find its own way to improve without comparison to other societies.

Anyway getting off topic now

Obviously the exact state of dysfunctionality is debatable.

For me, the rescue foundations, and the areas they work in are a very good reflection of Thai society. With and through them you get to see a lot of what is usually hidden from view - the crime, the violence, the corruption, the desperation. You get into the houses of the poor, but also of the rich and mighty (they also kill themselves and have the occasional murder). You get insides to the police and many other institutions. You see the patronage system at work on many levels.

Of course you see a lot of good things as well, such as individual attempts to improve society. And you see the compromises one has to make while trying to improve the situation.

Thanks for your reply CP. I've never had any serious accident in LOS but if it happened I guess I wouldn't care by whom and how I was delivered to the hospital (or morgue) as I long got there in time (except for the morgue; time don't matter anymore then) to fix something.

Seems to me in general they're doing a good job.

Thanks, i think so too, in general.

They are the best we got here. Unfortunately, i have to add. There is much to criticize, no argument with that. But a lot of that is not entirely their fault, or not their fault at all. What i have seen though in the many years is that they do gradually improve. But they are part of Thai society. This society is dysfunctional, and naturally these foundations as part of the society here, are affected and handicapped by this sad state of affairs here.

For example in Bangkok are there only the two rescue foundations mentioned that attend to emergencies or is there also something operated by the government?

There is in some areas, and it doesn't work.

In most districts i am familiar with they never come, and in one district i know very well they cause many problems. For example, in one case they came very late, have not allowed the earlier arrived Por Teck Tueng volonteers to bring the injured to the hospital, resulting in the death of the injured in the public hospital they have sent the injured in, which has also refused emergency treatment because the injured's relatives could not be found for some signatures. While the Por Teck Tueng volonteers were standing around, the bystanders were increasingly angry because nobody was allowed to take the injured away.

They only send the injured to the local public hospital, and not to the hospital at choice, because they directly receive money from the hospital per injured.

In another case i was present their late coming has even caused a large fight between two different foundation crews.

Several members of the government organized crew there have been thrown out of the other foundation crews previously because of misconduct.

Name me one institution here that is free from this.

This is the same wrong excuse that i'm not accepting anymore, like your previous excuse that this is a developing country.

I don't want to see plans and i don't want to see excuses i only care about results. And the result of the current situation is

that this is happing everywhere and everytime. Only the most serious events make it into the news.

You could be a pround member of the goverment. From there you also only gets promises and stories how

great this society is - being proud is the first requirement of an "Untertan" (don't know how to translate this world in english).

And for > 80% the situation is as bad as before.

That the 21th richest economy in the world is not having an public financed and organized unique 24 hour emergency system

is so terrible ancient and barbaric society. Oh yes, maybe it is because this would cost money and this would take money from

the high society. (Even the USA - the most anti communist society on earth - is having a state run emergency system).

Not charity where even the biggest moron who's only success in life was to take over the family business from his parents

can gain face, no just good old enforced tax money. It's not charity its your responsibility.

Well, don't accept it if you don't want to, but fact is that Thailand is a developing nation with many problems, and that should explain conditions.

What is the aim of your rant? Do you make the foundations responsible for the fact that Thailand has no functioning state run EMS system?

Where have i said that i am a "proud member of the government", and show "how great this society is"? No on both points.

Your rants here are a bit confused and disordered. Please start bringing your thoughts in order before posting.

These foundations are the only functioning EMS system in Thailand. Live with it.

The foundations get money from the hospitals,

Sorry are you so stupid that you really think this makes a difference?

And are you so so blind to not see the reality?

I have seen "the reality" for several years, my flaming friend, while working with the rescue volunteers.

It makes a bloody difference, and you are the one with intellectual challenges not to see that. The foundations here in Bangkok are massive organisations - the Por Teck Tueng, for example, has their own hospital, desaster relieve operations, high tech equipment. They support affiliated upcountry foundations, and have large poverty programs.

The moneys received from the hospitals, all according to law, are a tiny percentage of their budget. They are supported massively by donations from some of the richest Thai Chinese business clans, their festivals do get attended by the highest religious authorities, even the palace sends representatives, or even members of the Royal family.

Anyone who thinks that these foundations are nothing but a bunch of thugs has his head in a very dark place, and should start informing himself. These foundations have a established place in Thai society. But naturally - there is corruption and ineptitude, as everywhere here. Name me one institution here that is free from this.

I was talking about the hospitals. Make this head bonus that the hospitals pay rescue workers illegal and take huge fines from the hospital management.

This would (yeah yeah i'm on my better thailand dream) remove the cause and not the sympthom....

Payments from hospitals to the rescue teams are already forbidden and illegal. The foundations get money from the hospitals, but that is not distributed to the volunteers.

It would be nice to inform before making judgments based on rumor.

Thailand is a developing nation with many problems. he foundations are improving in many ways.

I'm reall getting tired of this there is no execuse for not acting in a way thailand could if they want to get out of this barbarian style of society. First of all punish them and punish them hard. 10 millions for an incident like the girl taken to an hospital for profit reasons. Show this guys they can't make money out of acts like this. Punish the people with the most face, make them loose there face. Make emergency care free for all (even the ######ed up healthcare system of the USA has a rule like this to prevent these problems).

It the guys up there would be willing to change they could easily do it.

Just another ill informed rant.

No, these things are not easy to change, especially with governments that do not exactly have the welfare of the people as their main interest. The rescue system is improving, and has so in the more than 7 years i have had personal affiliation with them.

The girl that was taken to the private hospital was i believe the case in Phitsanulok recently and got impoverished with the hospital bills. Judging from the news - the entire fault there is with the hospital and not the rescue services who just delivered the injured to the nearest hospital. I have seen many cases similar to this - both hospitals trying to scam the injured, and also hospitals refusing admittance to injured.

The rescue foundations transport injured for free already, gasoline and equipment paid for by the volunteers personally (and not reimbursed by anyone). Hospitals though aren't free - but that is hardly the fault or responsibility of the rescue organisations.