jomtienbob

The test of the farang's self esteem and commonsense is how he responds to the demand for payment. If one is confident of his self worth and not a sucker, he will point out the economic facts: That if the subject of the transaction is to be treated like chattel, then it is only fair that there be an appraisal of value. None of these objects up for sale are worth the asking prize of the sinsod. Would you overpay for a car, a washing machine or a garden hoe? No. So why do it here? Pying the sinsod is the first step to a marriage that will end with a man's crushed dreams, empty bank account and broken heart.

The reality is that the women that are worth paying a sinsod for, don't make unreasonable demands or even expect one, and those that demand a bloated sinsod payment are never worth it. Be a smart shopper.

Maybe it's time for Tesco to offer a sinsod department where silly farangs can go and buy a fresh bride off the shelf.

Thanks for the thoughts, and yes how one responds in any negotiation usually sets your course in the early stages. I have mostly associated with better educated here in Thailand and my friends both Thai and foreign here reflect that, my GF does also, but i was as shocked as you wouldn't believe when after knowing her for 6 months I found out she was from a poor farming family. But I gave it a go anyhow as she is certainly no dummie and is well educated with excellent values and character and she'd got straight into a top corporation in BKK straight out of college and has worked there 7-8 years. I guess I am now finding out that she probably didn't get all that integrity from her family, so I am trying to find some real facts, as I don't mind to pay for the ceremonies etc etc but it just goes against my culture and standards to pay this sinsod unless it is purely ceremonial, which was the case with friends of mine. However yes it is very different with the poor uneducated farmers, so to have any case to be argued with my GF (First) I'll need real and current facts. As for the bank account it won't empty it, but I can imagine if one lets them get away with exorbitant stuff like this it will be continuously under siege I think.

I approached this issue a couple year's back different than most.

I convinced the father that marrying his daughter was a financial burden off him and onto me. In less than romantic terms, I was gaining a liability not an asset.

To go this route you must however give them a way out to save face. Therefore I provided the 'show money' on the day that I collected in full at the end of it.

I did paid for everything, wedding, reception, you name it - but I refused to pay for his daughter directly.

My wife's parents were quite understanding of the situation, that in the UK the bride's family pay for the wedding. So we met in the middle, their family didn't pay for the UK wedding and my family didn't pay a Sin Sod. My wife and I paid for the wedding in Thai and the one in UK.

That sounds like a nice face-saving compromise.

I guess if they are not prepared to be reasonable there will be no result. That would crush my GF and I am guessing that she'll blame me, but better to confront them now and let them know they aren't dealing with a buffalo here. My GF is no dummie in most things (a mid level Financial controller for this country's biggest food corporation) but she is oh so very gullible when it comes to the obvious ploys from her family. I'll certainly offer them something, but that's what I've learned is the key point. Traditionally it is my 1st offer. This did not happen that way, my GF just told me last weekend that the family have already set a price. Bloody poor form eh.

Thanks a lot

Yeah seriously, if your going to pay, just pay what a Thai man would pay for her. No more no less.

My GF's family wanted a cool 3 million, plus the gold, plus the cows, etc., etc. I counterd with zero and have been living happily ever after in the Land of Vertical Smiles!

Good point

It could be a 1st Hail-Mary Speculator type bid and not the end they settle on. I put the "I don't pay" card on the table along with the "you already know how generous I am" one to my GF, but she is brainwashed by the family and can't see anything but their avarice.

I believe 100,000 is the going rate for your situation. Though zero can be had too, depending on various factors, such as how much you think you will actualy offend them

Thanks, I wouldn't blink at that and if anything reasonable under 200k was mentioned I'd not be discussing it here.

I'm not sure if I care if I offend them anymore, but I wouldn't want to do so to my GF, but I suppose that is inexorably linked.

Yes the point is that just the receptions and honeymoon etc will run well past the 1m I guess, so I am also guessing I can see they are very greedy and care not about much else than the money. So common here.

Bob,

First of all, congratulations to you and your betrothed.

Many have said before, and I concur because I have done the same, that one should ensure up front that the money will be returned to you after the ceremony for you and your wife's use.

I presume that you have taken for a given that you are paying for the ceremony (ceremonies?) and reception(s) as a separate entity or entities?

This doesn't include the flying in of your family of course!

Another "tradition"is for the bride's family to match what you are putting in, this is the part that may or may not be physically presented to you (a nice touch that keeps the Baht amount down to a realistic level).

I like BkkJames and LatinDancer's responses, these are what I did as diplomatically as I could but, as my partner is the youngest daughter of a large family, "Pop" just replied that he was happy that she was happy (and now we have several rai of rubber trees!).

So I will close by saying that I offered (the smaller of) "all the nines" which has been accepted under the guidelines of the above - 1 Baht less than you recommended LatinDancer! Now we just have to fix a date for my UK family and friends to have enough time to save enough to come over!

Have a great day (or days) Bob.

Thanks for your kind response.

The reference to flying friends and family over was me being sarcastic inasmuch OK I pay 1m+ and you put your hand in the pocket for the expenses which I could easily make into 2-3m if they are paying ;-) but nah, they live on less than 10k a month so the point is frivolity at best.

My GF just said "oh what can I do" she feels trapped and I feel that it is terrible for them to put her in that position. But no I still won't bend over and let em do it to me!! That would be setting a very bad precedent.

Thanks anyhow

I have a friend who's expenses are.......

Sin Sod - B400,000 (Wife from Bangkok, a Masters Graduate, Father connected (dept. Prime-Minister and various Politicians attended wedding).

Wedding Costs - B1,400,000 (everything including rings etc)

Envelope money - +/-B1,000,000 (money received from guest's)

He's not sure if he's getting sin-sod back or not (they're still on honeymoon and It's not polite to discuss the return of sin-sod before hand).

The couple have been given 1 Rai of land in Bangkok (est. Value at +/-B15 million).

I think that puts a B1,000,000 request for Sin-sod well into its perspective.... (oh... and the guy is a Westerner).

Thanks a lot that is interesting.

I will forward this to my GF and that might (only an outside chance) get her thinking a little.

Anyhow it certainly quashes their ask for 1m+

thanks again

Incredible as it seems, yet another thread started about sin-sod. The mind truly wobbles. ..

Unfortunately do to my posting penchants; other than the extremely cursory observations I will make, I refuse to get involved with mindless threads.

Perhaps not in your best interest that you posted on Thai Visa about this. It seems all foreign men are married to hi-so, uni-educated, pearly white skinned, thai-nese girls. In that regard you're likely to get some creative and/or marginally informed responses, which may or may not be applicable to your specific situation.

Then again, here's a suggestion; after living here for the last 12 years, why don't you actually go talk to thai men and see what their consensus might be?

For the life of me I don't know why you didn't use a nifty thing called the "Search function" on this website (or even Google for that matter) where you could find and read the posts about sin-sod to your hearts content.. .. I am sure there are HUNDREDS of them lurking around this forum.

One would have thought by now someone would have developed a program where you fill in some variable fields; education, previous marriage, location of birth, number of children, age, etc. and at the end a value in thai baht would be spit out, leaving no room for doubt.

Good Luck in your pursuit of the "current going rate".

If I was able to find any current information I wouldn't have asked the question.

I can be just as much a smart-arse as anyone but I find that to be poor value expenditure of my time or efforts. The current relevance of the question is key because the Thai grape-vine is about all that the uneducated locals go by, and thus the reason asking the question here and not of a Thai man or woman. The ones that do know me would just think "he can easily afford that, why would he ask". The rest I can figure out. This is my GF's 1st experience at all this so her opinion is also moot. I have learned not to pay exorbitant values & markups here and researching the current market in advance is one of the main keys. 1-2 year old information is worthless.

Anyhow thanks to some of the other posters for some feedback. This is our form of grapevine and it does have the potential of being much better and faster than the local's but for a few bitter narcissistic individuals.

I was just trying to research the going reasonable rates for SinSod and I thought I'd ask the question here just to get a gauge of what people are asking these days.

My story is basically I have lived and worked here 12 years and I have a GF wants to get married but they just started the Sinsod debate through her, but obviously orchestrated by her greedy poor family. My 29YO GF's outlaws want a cool 1m baht plus gold. No she is not a part of the royal family, just a girl from a poor rice farming family in Buriram. But just the same she graduated with a masters from Khonkaen Uni (I think) and has a good job with CP Foods in one of their regional accounting divisions, so there's no question of any BG stuff. She's never been married and is really a top class girl (with obviously a low class family) But Jeez 1m+ baht?

I've obviously pointed out to my GF (Tongue in cheek) that us Australians also have certain traditions where the Bride's parents pay all the wedding costs and that would also apply to the grandiose reception and flying all my (very very many) family and friends from Oz out for the week (business class) and staying at nothing less than the Royal Cliff. But I digress,,, really have things gone so far off into the loony bin here? I don't know any of my farang friends that have paid hefty SinSod and some of them are married into A level HiSo BKK families!! not rice farmers!!.

Does anyone out there have any other current demands so as I can gauge what should be a fair value? I don't mind to contribute but I wont stand for a blatant rip off.

To the poster, I had a quick think about some of the things we have spent our Barter points on just this year, which has saved me cash;

Advertising - this is great

Website

Air Con Service in rooms

Got the old car serviced and repaired, waiting for the new one now

All My legal work including visas

My accounting

Order some of my food for the restaurant

Cleaning stuff

Some tables and chairs

Rented some motorbikes for customers who gave me cash in return

Some printing work

Pest Control for all areas

Signage and banners

Staff shirts

Bought some wine a couple of weeks ago - this is not always available

Had some maintenance work done in a couple of the bathrooms

Personally

Took my holidays in Chang Mai

Go out on the town drinking and eating

and a lot of others things personally

Thinking about getting a tattoo on Barter

I am sure there are many other things, but that gives you an idea

And for the 5.5% both ways, I'd happily pay given how much I can save.

What's the old saying, use it or lose it, same applies with Barter - if you don't try and use it - there's no point blaming other people.

Sorry, I hate people who bash and blame other people or businesses - it was mention before about a problem with the stock exchange - I heard about this some time back, but if you do your research you will find it wasn't because of the barter card it was down to their stock exchange Broker and appearenlty they sued the Broker and won - I just googled it again and that is what happened.

Imagine paying 11% permium IN CASH to bartercard for the privilege of buying all that stuff! The point is you are NOT saving. If you get normal business they pay you CASH which you can spend anywhere and even put in a BANK or in INVESTMENTS (gold etc) and get some interest etc. The relatively TINY amount of bartercard customers that MIGHT do business with you here are usually inconsequential in comparison to doing your normal business better than your competitors. Overseas customers? Ha! There were more than 5 million cash spending foreign tourists to Pattaya last year! I'll guess that not even a fraction of 1% of them had bartercard. It's only really big in Queensland in Oz, so even that is only a relatively small # of people. The numbers just DO NOT stack up for small business people. Oh yeah and you don't get de-listed from any stock exchange unless it is something serious. There is a whole string of protocols before they take such drastic measures and it is normally to protect the INVESTORS!!

To the poster, I had a quick think about some of the things we have spent our Barter points on just this year, which has saved me cash;

Advertising - this is great

Website

Air Con Service in rooms

Got the old car serviced and repaired, waiting for the new one now

All My legal work including visas

My accounting

Order some of my food for the restaurant

Cleaning stuff

Some tables and chairs

Rented some motorbikes for customers who gave me cash in return

Some printing work

Pest Control for all areas

Signage and banners

Staff shirts

Bought some wine a couple of weeks ago - this is not always available

Had some maintenance work done in a couple of the bathrooms

Personally

Took my holidays in Chang Mai

Go out on the town drinking and eating

and a lot of others things personally

Thinking about getting a tattoo on Barter

I am sure there are many other things, but that gives you an idea

And for the 5.5% both ways, I'd happily pay given how much I can save.

What's the old saying, use it or lose it, same applies with Barter - if you don't try and use it - there's no point blaming other people.

Sorry, I hate people who bash and blame other people or businesses - it was mention before about a problem with the stock exchange - I heard about this some time back, but if you do your research you will find it wasn't because of the barter card it was down to their stock exchange Broker and appearenlty they sued the Broker and won - I just googled it again and that is what happened.

Obviously written by someone at Bartercard Ha ha ha

Yes Thai Love links dot com is quite good and you'll get lots of educated Thai girls who are looking for love & money, the trick is finding out which way the see-saw balances with each one, but hey that is the same deal in any country and Thailand is not much different only the amount is. I gave it (TLL) a go for 3 months and had a huge number of interested puyings and some were quite good, some were just hustlers, and some were lairs. I met probably 10-12 and made a choice but it was a poor choice because she turned out to be a hustler. Most of these girls are corresponding with many guys and some stupid guys send them money without ever having met them. Anyhow that is life and you move on. I think the TLL deal is cheap at 1200 baht for the 3 months. Date in Asia is free, but you'll just get bombarded by Filipinos there.

So the internet today is not seen with the hang-ups or any incriminatory guise in Thailand, indeed they embrace new technology with no strings, so you'll get a mixed bag and it is really up to you to try and step over the other side of the fence and think about the real motives of the individual you are getting to know. Not so dissimilar as when you meet them in the shopping mall or disco except for the fact that the educated middle class girls would not risk losing face by "picking up or being picked up" by a guy at such places.

Just my 2 cents worth anyhow

This we all should do, instead of complaining here :

Send a written complaint to your Embassy (country of origin), explain the difficulties you meet with the never ending visa changes. When your embassy get enough complaints, I bet the embassy will make a formal "request" to the Thai Goverment, about their strict (failed) visa policy, and ask them to consider more "foreign friendly" changes.

You might say "they'll never change" but I bet more happend, than if we all just sit here and "weening" like a bunch of old women :-)

I've done it already (sent a written complaint, that is) lol.

LOS is dead = LOFF (Land Off Frustrated Foreigners)

But this is a long way before anything happend (if ever). In the meantime, all of us end up without a visa - so - we all move to neighbour more visa friendly country. And Thailand will loose 500-600 Billion Baht every year .....

Talk about Failed Visa Policy !

How do you calculate or where do you get 500-600 Billion baht from?? Isn't there less than 250k foreign residents in Thailand in total?

two friends this month had problems on checkin coming to thailand.

friend one. british passport. checkin at london to fly to bkk. had tourist visa and one way ticket on EVA to bkk. EVA made a fuss that he could not board having only a one way ticket and tourist visa. insisted he buy a ticket on the spot out of thailand before he be allowed to board.

friend two. USA passport. checkin at San Francisco to fly to bkk. no visa, planned to do visa on arrival (30 day) and then some travel around SEA. airline United. checkin counter made a fuss because his return ticket was 65 days out and united said could not board without thai visa because return flight beyond the 30 day visa-on-arrival. he told them he planned to travel around SEA and they demanded to see proof (ie tickets) that he was leaving thailand. he doesnt have them yet because he is buying them here. in the end he convinced them to let him board by insisting on talking to a united supervisor and making a scene.

does this just reflect general airline skittishness about risk? in neither case did the airline offer them the "waiver form" which says they are responsible if they are not admitted into the destination country (i have done this form for other countries, so i know it exists, but neither friend was savvy enough to know to ask for this).

or is thai immigration getting stricter or what?

Hey 2 classic cases of the staff abiding strictly by the law and new regulations. Try doing it in reverse to NZ or Aust. or USA? it's no different.

I accompanied an Asian colleague recently to the USA and we were harassed vigilantly at every point, but our paperwork was spot on and we were let through. These are the new paranoid systems post 911 and this is just what we have to live with now. Forget freedom thanks to G. Bush and his cronies. This is G Orwell's prophecy coming into reality.

America needs to look closely at itself before it decides to start dictating its philosophies and jurisdictions to other countries. eg Iraq etc. (People in glass houses... )

Understand the reality people. The media won't give it to you, you have to find it out for yourself. Thank God and Buddha and whomever for the internet!

For more info on this subject you can check out the video http://birdflubook.com/g.php?id=6

It always surprises me how the media has rarely explained why the WHO and leading scientists and epidemiologists are so concerned about the re-emergence of the H5N1 virus.

Basically it is because this pathogen has mutated to humanly transmittable forms in the past, and in 1918-1920 it was known as the Spanish Flu, which wiped out an estimated 50 million people worldwide in just 18 months! Much more than Aids has killed in 20 years! Check it out on the web, I know most people aren't aware of this. The reason it was called the Spanish flu was because Spain was Neutral in WW1 and had one of the few (non-military governed) Free press in the west at the time, and they reported it extensively whereas the rest of the world did not. This is also possibly why most people don't know much about it.

At this point, governments all over the world have had contingency plans in place for this pathogen, not if it strikes by mutating to humanly transmittable form, but when. Yes we have Tamiflu and relenza, but the experts know that these will only be of some help in the first waves, and after that, the virus will have mutated to be resistant to those and possibly even completely methecilin resistant.

It does sound bad I know, but knowledge is power, and awareness of the threats is better than ignorance. You can confirm everything I say here with just a few google searches. There are things people can do and getting into good habits and get a bit of knowledge about it all is a big start. Good hand hygene and have good disinfectants and sanitizers is also a big step. Remember these viruses don't prefer to fly as much as they love to hitchhike. You more often get it from your hands than from someone sneezing on you. As I say, check it out it might just be the difference for you.

A very sad story. Does anyone know what bar they were being ushered into? I would have thought it would be fairly straight forward to arrest the touts at the bar concerned and get one of them to talk. It sounds like they don't want justice. I wonder how the story is being reported in Estonia.

This is exactly right. Why weren't these captains of truth Justice and the "thai way of doing things" (the Tourist police - incapably supported by Howard from PCN) running up to the fight and breaking it up before things got out of hand? This is a VERY BIG black mark on Howard's posse of Tourist police and their pathetic band of Farang volunteers. Only meters away and the guy is murdered? This was always going to happen IMHO. They need to either get serious or get out, and put some professionals in the chair. This has as much blame to be laid at the feet of the aforementioned pathetic expats trying to meddle in police and security matters as it does with the Thais and the Thai police. Surely the visitors were stupid to return to the scene but the STUPID tourist police should have made sure they did not do that. They surely know what the risks would have been under those circumstances and at least taken some care to contact the boys from soi 9 on their behalf.

Pattaya is indeed becoming a very very much more dangerous place and I have lived here for 8 years, so I am not speculating.

from the CBC website (Canadian news station)

Deadly Thai shooting unprovoked, says injured Canadian victim

Last Updated: Monday, January 7, 2008 | 8:56 AM ET

CBC News

A Canadian woman shot in Thailand has contradicted an official Thai police report into the shooting death of her Canadian companion, saying they were attacked for no reason.

Thai police on Monday said John Leo Del Pinto, 25, died early Sunday of two gunshot wounds — one to the face and one to the torso — and his pregnant partner, Carly Reisig, also of Canada, was in hospital with a bullet wound in her body.

Police said the pair, who lived in the town of Mae Hong Son, had a fight while drinking at a bar. The fight escalated outside and turned physical when a police officer tried to intervene, said Col. Sombat Panya of Pai district in northern Mae Hong Son.

The officer involved, Sgt. Uthai Dechawiwat, told Thai investigators the pair attacked him when he tried to intervene, and that his gun "accidentally went off" three times as he tried to defend himself.

But Reisig contradicted the official police report Monday, telling a reporter in Thailand that an undercover officer attacked them for no reason.

Cindy Tilney, a reporter with Thai website Citylife Chang Mai, visited Reisig in hospital, where the Canadian is in stable condition with a bullet wound to her chest.

Tilney said Reisig is in shock and upset over the shootings, which she said started when she and Del Pinto left a bar. Reisig, who denied being pregnant, said she arrived in Thailand several days ago to visit Del Pinto, who she said was her ex-boyfriend and good friend.

Reisig said she and Del Pinto were not fighting when they left the bar and passed an undercover officer while walking to another part of town. She said the man rushed up and hit her and that Del Pinto subsequently shoved the man.

Reisig told Tilney she had her face "painted" and believes that may have angered the man.

According to Reisig, the man then rushed to a nearby motorcycle and retrieved a gun. Del Pinto and the man struggled for control of the gun before the man shot them both, she said.

Reisig said she has spoken with Del Pinto's family in Canada and they were very upset.

Tilney said the police officer has been charged with manslaughter but is not being held in custody. The town's police chief said suspects who admit guilt are allowed to be released before their trials.

If she had only arrived in Thailand a few days earlier, how would she know he was an undercover policeman??

Yep that's exactly right.

Why is it that once one idiot goes off the rails and commits murder under the cloak of authority does everyone brandish all Thais with the same brush.

It's not just one. There have been two off duty Thai Policemen that murdered foreigners fairly recently I can think of off the top of my head.

Does the US invasion of Iraq not equate starkly by comparison when it is now almost universally agreed that they had no justification to do so? I put that in the murder basket!

Thailand was an ally of the US in the invasion of Iraq.

If Thailand is such a dangerous place, someone name for me the last Thai mass/serial murderer

There are and have been many Thai serial killers.

I take it you completely missed this story from a couple of weeks ago? Lol.

http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapac...cle_1372754.php

or one that blew up a building full of innocent people in a major city

You do know there's a civil war going on in the South don't you?

or the last time a crazed kid(s) opened fire with automatic weapons in a school of any description.

A couple of young guys went bezerk near the Mall in Bang Na several weeks ago with AK47's. I believe they killed a police officer. Does that qualify or does it have to be a school? I could have taken my pick of the shootings in central Bangkok as common as they are.

You can't seriously be cherry-picking information snippets like that to argue that Thailand is generally not a safer less confrontational place such as US or UK? If so, why don't you go back there to live then?!? The Muslim extremist insurgency in the south could hardly qualify as a civil war, but there you go I am cherry picking irrelevant points of argument because my original point was generically proposed not pedantic as you have interpreted and argued.

Sensational 'outliers' do not indicate the mean average in any equation or evaluation and my point that generally Thailand is a much safer place than many richer western countries remains still unchallenged by your nit-picking samples of 2 newspaper articles. There are murders and crime in every society since societies began and we still haven't got any smarter about minimizing or avoiding them, however the Buddhist social fabric that weaves this emerging country together has a lot more positives than negatives. If they could get rid of the guns it would probably be even better, but for as long as I have been here I have never heard the crackle of gunfire in the suburbs as one does so often in some of the larger cities in the states.

Anyhow this is all really terribly irrelevant because our opinions don't count for much here, just as those of visiting foreigners (non-citizens) count for diddlie-sqwat in our own home countries. Let's at least be a bit fair to the Thais as we are the visitors/guests on the whole.

Yeah sure,

but please do not say things like "THIS IS THAILAND".

I come from Italy, and in my country Plocie KILL people quite often, and then construct any kind of obviously made-up defense. And judges, legal dooctors, all of them most of the times collude with the police.

In UK, if I don't go wrong, a brazilian guy has been shot in the head in the tube not long ago. And the responsibles? Have they been punished?

And in USA? Awwwwww here I could write a novel about police and unjust violence!

Police is reflection of power, anywhere. And wherever men are legally endorsed to carry and USE guns, such kind of accidents happen. It is not Thailand. The guy is a farang, so maybe something will move. At least.

Carlo Giuliani, shot in the face by a police man in the G8 riots in north italy. The policeman has been released BECAUSE HE SHOT IN THE AIR, AND HIS BULLET BOUNCED ON A FLYING STONE!!! Not even in Thailand they would have such fantasy!

love

Pippo

Yep that's exactly right.

Why is it that once one idiot goes off the rails and commits murder under the cloak of authority does everyone brandish all Thais with the same brush.

Hey let's have a close look in our own glass houses before we start casting stones?!

Does the US invasion of Iraq not equate starkly by comparison when it is now almost universally agreed that they had no justification to do so? I put that in the murder basket! The poor Brazilian kid in the London tube was murdered etc and the list is quite long if you care too look.

All governments and institutions in authority and power cover up or "spin" the real story and facts to salvage the reputation of their own institutions regardless of what country you are in. This is not something found just in Thailand, it is perhaps that they are not quite as adroit at it as others. Gee the US government still have a large percentage of people believing that a Boeing 707 with a 44ft wingspan and 2 HUGE 9ft Pratt & Whitney engines made from Titanium could fit into the initial 16 ft hole in the Pentagon on the morning of 9/11! ..Ha!

Sadly though the Canadian guy is dead and there is nothing that will cure that now. If Thailand is such a dangerous place, someone name for me the last Thai mass/serial murderer, or one that blew up a building full of innocent people in a major city, or the last time a crazed kid(s) opened fire with automatic weapons in a school of any description. No this is generally a peaceful, non-confrontational society in comparison to our western catholic-based ones and the comparisons are stark and in most cases polar in comparison, but when the occasional exception sadly occurs here most foreigners want to kick all Thais in the same punching bag. I disagree strongly. They do have a long way to go in many areas of their justice system, but hey, 2-3 generations ago most of them were just farmers. If this was a Thai couple getting shot in New York by a drunk off duty cop it might make a small page 3 snippet and few people would even care less IMHO.

How about a bit of the "when in Rome" theorem here and not be to quick to criticize anything before they have their chance to step up to the plate. And even if they don't step up, they certainly aren't without good company in that field.

The UK has stopped giving the vaccine unless you are 'at risk' - mixed race etc.

In Thailand TB drugs are free, totally free and have been for a while. Hospital treatment is paid for by you. TB is RIFE in Thailand and people really need to be told about it - I would spend a large part of the donated cash on media awareness raising. TB is not going away and it's killing more people in the world than HIV and Malaria every year. Fact - source WHO

I didn't agree with your statement that it kills more than Malaria, but I certainly thought it would be more than Aids. But this is what the experts at WHO say:

TB - In 2004, mortality and morbidity statistics included 14.6 million chronic active TB cases, 8.9 million new cases, and 1.6 million deaths.

Malaria - Each year, it causes disease in approximately 515 million people and kills approximately 3 million, most of them young children in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Aids - In 2005 alone, AIDS claimed an estimated 2.4–3.3 million lives, of which more than 570,000 were children. A third of these deaths are occurring in sub-Saharan Africa, with an estimated 38.6 million people now living with the disease worldwide.

So Malaria is easily the bigger pandemic by infection but I'd not like to experience any of them really.

I had a team of 60 Thai guys working on a project with me for a big multinational and both HIV & TB were surprisingly common. The problem is of course that you can safely work around people with HIV but TB is a different nasty kettle of fish. Guess which ones the big multinational wanted me to fire???

please sign me up with 1 quest...thanks!

Yep the 15 million baht in training might indeed be found in the ledger under the CEO's cousin's training company which just started business right after he got in the chair. It's a bit like local politicians, the first things they do once they get into office is to have their brother or cousin or whatever start up a road and building construction company... Need we say any more???

Just the same, the good Samaritan/hero there may well have been left without a lift back because his actions possibly made the lifeguards lose face and rightly so. That indeed highlights another hypocrisy on this whole (Non Buddhist) "Face" thing.

How to avoid the scamers!

Open 2 accounts with internet access. Get 1 account with a card and the other without. Keep ALL your money in account WITHOUT a card. When you want to take money out of the ATM go online and transfer the amount you wish to withdraw to account with the card. Go to ATM and withdraw it. If card is ever cloned you are not going to loose anything as you have nothing in account to remove. Simple but effective

Bloody fine Idea I say.

Possibly a bit inconvenient, but definitely puts another safety cog in the wheel

jomtienbob: Dont be suprised if the banks are in on it. A friend of mine withdrew 1,000bht from ATM opposite the Nana, in soi4, sukumavit, only too appear on his bank statement as 2,000bht withdrawn!

Yep at the time it SURELY seemed like someone at that branch of the BKK Bank down near soi Marine in Pattaya was in on something. But I happen to personally know the Captain of police down here and he thinks probably not as there haven't been other reports of similar or same from that location.

He quietly suggested in private that the order probably came from above to cover up the issue and blame the Farang (me), as their HQ will almost surely have other incidences of this that they know of. This would explain why the manager did not attend any but the last meeting, and why they refused written police orders on 5! occasions. The fact that if people know that this can happen would cost them a bucket load in customer confidence and a PR nightmare if it got out. So you can see, they couldn't even pay me back/off, because the big issue still remains the same for them. How did they get through the pin no????

As they say, there is truth, justice and then there is the Thai way of doing things...

Oh BTW the ATM card I used wasn't a credit card. Just a simple ATM card on a passbook account.