Bob Chittie

Very quick to shut down the last thread regarding bootleg products.

Okay, I will rephrase.

Some terrible bottom feeders, leeches of society and the like, have been known to peddle in the trade of bootleg goods. Some of this trade takes place on the internet. I have made it my life's aspiration to hunt these people down and put them behind bars. Where on the net should I begin my search? (Apart from ebay, of course).

While I'm at it, here's a few other illegal topics that are openly discussed on tv.com and in many cases openly supported my some members, withou admin shutting down the thread:

Working in Thailand without a WP

Prostitution

Using the internet to make phone calls

Buying a university degree

Stealing UBC

Stealing satellite television

Any others I'm missing?

Well I would say good luck to him.

For many years we were bullsh*tted by the music industry(And companies of that ilk) that CD's were expensive to produce..blah blah blah..what a crock!

As for copy watches and the like, it is meeting a market that would not normally afford the real thing.

Is the richest man in the world a Plagiarist?

As this post demonstrates and as I'm sure we will see from other posts, there are different ways to look at this.

I'm still interested in real aternatives to ebay.

Where is the best place online to sell bootleg goods? It seems that ebay is now cracking down. But I must say that there are a few ingenious sellers who are able to constantly register a new account every day and somehow keep selling. Is there anywhere else? Feel free to PM me.

For all those who are very angry by now, please feel free to yell at me.

Thank you.

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Will yell in the end of the msg, don't worrie.

First of all, if you like attention, then by all means, go ahead and advertise online that you are selling stolen property. This is the one channel that is widely monitored by all organisations against intellectual property theft - at the same time.

The second dummest idea would be to carry around a box with CDs and having a neon sign over your head. Now why does the first option seem so profitable? Maybe because you expect that you won't get cought since the net is 'anonumous'? It's not.

And yes, there are ways to make it more difficoult to get caught when doing not so legal things online, but no, I would never lend a hand to anyone that in the end is piggybacking on other peoples labour and a threat to my own proffession.

If you had any real skills you would do something that didn't involve illegal activities. Or you are expecting a quick and high cashflow comming in since you selling some bootleg cds across the globe? Kids in america already can get whatever they want. For free. And they in most cases wouldn't order stuff from other side of the world anyway.

People selling bootlegs are the lowest bottomfeeders of the chain. I understand and respect those that won't pay $900 for latest Adobe Photoshop on a student-loan, especially when they just wanna learn it. In many cases the companioes they are employed tolater on (in western countries this is) already have a license, so the companies do get paid. But what you are doing isn't handing out trial-copies, not even trying products for yourself or handing out a few copies to friends. You are making a buisness by copying other peoples work and putting nothing of your own into it. Some resume to put on the tombstone.

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I didn't say it was glamorous or respectable. But thank you for putting your time into this response.

Where is the best place online to sell bootleg goods? It seems that ebay is now cracking down. But I must say that there are a few ingenious sellers who are able to constantly register a new account every day and somehow keep selling. Is there anywhere else? Feel free to PM me.

For all those who are very angry by now, please feel free to yell at me.

Thank you.

In any case the crime must be severe enough to justify an international arrest order and therefore actually considered a serious crime from a global point of view.

Therefore, that someone gets extradited because that person has cheated on taxes in his home country is very unlikely while drug dealing (even if it is "just" marijuna) may be considered differently paritcularly in some countries here in Asia where drug related offences are seen to be more severe than in their Western equivalents.

A few years ago there was a German guy wanted by Germany for fraud in the amount of millions of Euros. That person made an open and fabulous living in Pattaya without fearing the authorities. Eventually, however, he was extradited to Germany because.... you guess it, not because of the arrest order in Germany but rather cheating on taxes in Thailand.

Conclusion: As long as the hosting country has not own personal interest (for example an individual has not commited a crime that is major from the hosting country's point of view or there is interest for political reasons) a foreigner may have a nice living without needing to fear extradition. The situation may, however, take a full turn overnight, namely in the very moment that person commits an offence, even a petty one, in the hosting country. 

Guess, this is plenty of advice to base a realistic script for a movie on.

Happy writing and filming.

Richard 

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Thanks Richard. In my movie script, the crime is not serious from a global standpoint, but still, considered fraud in the US with a maximum 5 years prison term. Did our German friend cross international borders without concern too?

I got it from a man in a pub

or

A friend asked me to find out

My brother's friend's Unlce asked me to find out. He might be writing a movie too. I'm not sure.

Yes- you will be caught and extradited at entry points. 

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So every crime committed around the world goes into one big database that all immigration officials have access to? It seems a little hard to believe. I know of people who have fled the US on marijuana smuggling charges who now travel the world, avoiding the US of course.

What is your opinion based on?

This is going to be one great movie.

Three questions. All hypothetical of course.

1. As an American in Thailand, what does it take to be extradited to the US? Is fraud that normally carries a 5 year maximum prison term enough?

2.Along the same lines, when one travels around the world, at entry points in the US and other countries, would such a crime flash up on the computer of the immigration/customs official or is it too small time to crowd their databases?

3. And would such a crime have any affect on one's ability to apply for and receive a Thai visa at consulates throughout the world?

I'm writing a movie script. Accuracy is best. Thanks.

This whole crackdown on Nong Nat by one idiot of a cop (who is probably only expressing his anger at never being able to attract the attention of a beautiful woman) has only generated more interest in porn. I love it. Every Thai person I know has rushed out and bought the VCD. Finally, I was lent it (the one with the lucky Japanese bloke) and boy I tell you, its possibly the best porno I've ever seen. 5 stars.

When will the police learn?

Have to say, I do feel a little sorry for her. Obviously, she knew what she was doing at the time, but for her to become famous and then have this jump out of the closet. Can't be a good feeling. She can thank the police and the Thai newspapers for promoting her xxx titles so well that I imagine its currently the number one movie in Thailand.

Kind of like the Paris Hilton tape. Just made her more famous and more successful. But the Thais like to pretend that they are so shocked that this woman would do this. Where is the respect for Thai culture. Yes, Thai culture. Meanwhile, every city in the Kingdom has prostitues waiting to take care of your needs. last time I checked, every city in the Kingdom also has police who turn a blind eye.

What a country.

Have you tried photoshop?

I have a friend in the North using Vonage successfullly. I will see what ISP he is on and let you know.

I've heard of people having good experiences with this. Maybe the problem is TT&T?

Thanks Flummoxed. It seems I've split the forum 50/50 on this one. You're right, I would never rip off a friend. I view the credit card companies in a very different light. No on e will be personally hurt. I don't buy the 'increased fees because of people like you' argument. Keep your credit score high and you will be treated very well by the credit card people.

To all you 'bankers' out there who are disgusted with me, may I remind you that I can simply file bankruptcy and end it? This is perfectly legal. No scam. No fraud. I'm bankrupt. That's it. Would you feel different about me then?

But it costs money, takes time, and involves a lenthgy and expensive trip to the US. I've decided against it for now.

A couple of things:  1) Johpa....I think you meant "life on the lam", not "life on the lamb", as that would be either Wyoming or New Zealand.  2) Bob, I really don't think you can assert that what you are doing is not fraud....you may be a very nice guy, but stiffing your creditors, running and attempting to hide your assets (for whatever reason) certainly is fraud, which is defined as "a deliberate deception for unfair gain", exactly what you're doing.  The "why" or the rest of your moral character doesn't enter the definition.  And the moral posturing makes you the sort of guy I'm not inviting to my house, because I'm sure you could justify theft as well......actually, you already have, you're just trying to get away with it.

So you are not only a deadbeat who is going to stiff some bank for tens of thousands of dollars which the rest of us will have to make up in increased interest rates and assorted other bank and merchant fees but you are also an arrogant SOB to boot.

Deafulting on unsecured debt is not fraud, no matter how much you'd like to convince yourself to the contrary. This wasn't planned. I didn't max out the cards one day and buy a plane ticket to Thailand.

'Hiding my assets' (as if there's millions of dollars in swiss bank accounts) so that I have a chance to rebuild and eventually actually pay my creditors back is simple logic. The alternative is to give the money away, (an amount that would not even begin to satisfy the creditors) and have no chance at rebuilding and no chance at paying off my debts. So am I trying to 'get away with that'? Absolutley. And I make no apologies.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not here looking for sympathy or approval. I'm here to get information to better help me look out for number one. That's exactly what I've gotten and that's exactly what I will do.

God forbid any of the hostile posters here ever find themselves in a such a situation. But I suppose they are all above that. Certainly it could never happen to them.

Johpa, your sympathy for the banks is really very sweet, but perhaps a bit naive. Keep your credit score high and your interest rates will be low. Don't let your blood pressure increase over the likes of deadbeats like myself.

Bob......no. Hiding assets isn't logic. It is fraud....read the definition again. And no, I personally don't have anything against you. Defaulting can happen; I have no problem with that; trying to beat the bank is the issue. Would ANYONE on this site (or anyone who knows what the readers do) loan you money? Yet I'll wager that many of them have loaned money to people with worse money problems than you. I think what rankles people is the fact that you have solicited information on how to cheat the system. As for sympathy for the banks....sympathy is for living creatures, not institutions. As for your making money so as to repay it, your track record (statistically, at least) rather mitigates against that, don't you think?

This can go on and on. We disagree. Okay. But remember, you don't know my intentions or me. 'Cheating the system'... It depends on how that is defined. Obvioulsy we define it differently. I would say I am endeavouring to understand the system so as not to be destroyed by it. You would say I am stealing or defrauding. We agree to disagree. Although, I have already stated that I can understand why there might be some resentment towrds me.

I appear to be 'getting away with something' to some. But there are plenty of ramifications. I will deal with my situation and those who are able to pay their bills on time and maintain good credit can enjoy their situation.

And I don't expect anyone here to lend me money.

Wouldn't taking the bankrupcy path preclude you from residency ? I have heard they, Immigration, ask your embassy to confirm that you are not bankrupt/insolvent as well as free from legal obstruction and without a criminal record. Not knowing if you want to go for residency of course, but may be of relevence to you situation.

Los has NO central credit reference agency. Therefore, there is no one for the US debt collectors to approach as to your assets. Of course, if you have a visa which required you to have certain level of income or savings, then the state may have an audit trail.

There are a several things to consider when assessing the Likelihood of the creditors chasing you cross border:

- How much you owe them - is it worth the cost. [not Likely in your case]

- Likelihood of recovery of enough to make chase viable [pretty low]

- Does it harm their image to NOT chase you/improve there image if they do - [Doubtful chasing will benefit them in this way].

- Do they know your wareabouts - [probably in your case as you have been paying from a Thai address (?)]

- How easy is it to raise an asset lock in Thailand. What is the success rate of this. [don't know the answer to this one - I suppose that in itself is an answer though]

- Can they recover costs elswhere. [yes, they sell your dept to a collection agency and get back 50% or so - they rest they claim from insurance. The credit agency chases locally in the US, discovers you've left the country and sits on it. Eventually, if you do not return, they claim on their insurance and close the account]

I think as above, that it is very unlikely that they will come-a-hunting. Most likely they will wreck your credit history at home, and leave you be.

If you have an audit trail from a Thai bank to them, then open another account (with cash) and keep your other one only if you need it for visa purposes (shows your transfer from abroad etc).

If you go back, then don't refer to your listed addresses (those that were linked with your bad debt). Don't let it keep you up at night, these b*starts make enough money out of people and are insured up the wazzoo.

Thanks for the comments. I have lost sleep over this, especially as I first started to be unable to make payments. Although I have been encourgaed by many of the posts here.

Yes, because I was using the cards here and (making payments) for many years, they could find me relatively easily if they were so inclined to send a representative my way. We'll cross that brigde when we come to it.

Thanks again to the more positive posters.

A couple of things: 1) Johpa....I think you meant "life on the lam", not "life on the lamb", as that would be either Wyoming or New Zealand. 2) Bob, I really don't think you can assert that what you are doing is not fraud....you may be a very nice guy, but stiffing your creditors, running and attempting to hide your assets (for whatever reason) certainly is fraud, which is defined as "a deliberate deception for unfair gain", exactly what you're doing. The "why" or the rest of your moral character doesn't enter the definition. And the moral posturing makes you the sort of guy I'm not inviting to my house, because I'm sure you could justify theft as well......actually, you already have, you're just trying to get away with it.

So you are not only a deadbeat who is going to stiff some bank for tens of thousands of dollars which the rest of us will have to make up in increased interest rates and assorted other bank and merchant fees but you are also an arrogant SOB to boot.

Deafulting on unsecured debt is not fraud, no matter how much you'd like to convince yourself to the contrary. This wasn't planned. I didn't max out the cards one day and buy a plane ticket to Thailand.

'Hiding my assets' (as if there's millions of dollars in swiss bank accounts) so that I have a chance to rebuild and eventually actually pay my creditors back is simple logic. The alternative is to give the money away, (an amount that would not even begin to satisfy the creditors) and have no chance at rebuilding and no chance at paying off my debts. So am I trying to 'get away with that'? Absolutley. And I make no apologies.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm not here looking for sympathy or approval. I'm here to get information to better help me look out for number one. That's exactly what I've gotten and that's exactly what I will do.

God forbid any of the hostile posters here ever find themselves in a such a situation. But I suppose they are all above that. Certainly it could never happen to them.

Johpa, your sympathy for the banks is really very sweet, but perhaps a bit naive. Keep your credit score high and your interest rates will be low. Don't let your blood pressure increase over the likes of deadbeats like myself.

I have a close friend that neglected to pay off his credit card bills in the US for the same amount as you, and, by the way, he blew all of it on Patpong hookers.

He has been here for many years and has had no problem renewing his passport or keeping money in a Thai bank, so I think that you should be OK.

He does say that he wishes that he hadn't done it. He has had to worry about these things over the years, still worries about them when thinking about visiting home, and also misses the convenience of having a credit card.

You always pay somehow.

That's a lot of hookers!

Just like to thank everyone who has offered positive and constructive advice.

Even if you hate Michel Moore with all your heart, this movie just became the highest grossing documentary of all time IN THE FIRST WEEKEND (nytimes.com). Why not see it if only find out what all the fuss is about?

And even if you don't believe anything that he says, why not watch it for the out takes of Bush and his friends to see how they act behind the scenes?

There are too many people who have commited fraud in there respective home country's then come-over here.  Thailand really needs people like this.

In short go back, get a job and pay off the debt, get your self respect back.  You wont earn money here to pay off the debt, just spend what cash you have on booze and hookers.

Many people have credit cards, I am one of them, the reason the fees and interest is at the level it is, because of people like you.

No sympathy here, did you honestly think that people would aid your scam?

And once again you assume so much. SO many hostile posters here. No fraud has been commited. You don't know anything of my lifestyle or my work and yet you have the audacity to proclaim that I spend my cash getting drunk and fuc#king and that I have pulled off some scam.

A more intelligent man wouldn't make such comments without sufficient information. Information like when I came to Thailand years ago I had excellent credit. Information like after arriving I made payments on time for over 30 consecutive months without fail, leading the creditors to extend me even more credit and reduce my interest rates.

'Go back. Get a job. Pay off your debts.' So simple... Take a look on google and see all the people LIVING AND WORKING IN THE US who are struggling enormously with similar problems.

Incidently, the level of your interest rates correlates directly to your credit score. A very good credit score will bring very low rates, regardless of 'people like me'. The reasons they charge high fees is because they can. Simple as that.

And no sympathy asked for on my behalf. If you'll look to the first post, I was only looking for some solid information based in fact. And I thank those more level headed posters out there who have given me this.

As far as 'people aiding my scam', whatever are you talking about? It is simple logic to protect what little you have in such a situation as to allow oneself to rebuild and yes, pay off one's debts.

I am running a defense contract in Saudi Arabia and my question still stands.

Does it feel as dangerous as it looks on CNN?

We do not condone supporting illegal businesses -- such as those that produce bootleg CD's -- here.  See it in the theater or wait until the legal DVD is released.

who is we? I condone it, otherwise you wait two years for the legal DVD's to make it into the shops.

My DVD man has told me that it is available here in two weeks

I THOUGHT it was the policy of this board not to allow the discussion of, or promotion of, illegal activities. At least, that is what I was made to believe I did wrong a couple months ago to have my account suspended. Or, perhaps, it is only discussion of illegal activities that offend the moderators that get censored.

For what its worth I think Michael Moore would rather us see a bootleg copy than not see it at all...

Bob,

ProThaiExpat has given you solid advice, saying roughly what any competent commercial lawyer would say after you retained him and all for free. He's either the said competent commercial lawyer himself, or he has had plenty of experience hiring them.

If you want it in a hundred words or less, the answer to your question is this:

Yes, your US creditors could get one or more judgments against you in the US and then, seeking to satisfy those judgments, they could make a subsequent application to the Thai courts for enforcement and to seize any of your assets that are located in Thailand.

No, this is very unlikely to happen because of the relatively small amount of money at stake versus the cost of the procedure and the difficulty of tracing your assets to Thailand in the first place.

And that's only eighty-two words, so I'll reduce my bill accordingly.

Thanks very. I appreciate the straightforward facts.

Incidently, I don't have a BMW, a Villa by the sea and five high class call girls by my side. I have a small amount of money I will use to rebuild and eventually pay off my debts and obviously I want to make sure its safe.

Mr Bob, why are people telling you all this.. What did you do in the States that makes you worry so much..?

Dutchy

Was unable to pay credit card bills!

Oh I see, and you do have funds at the Thai Farmer's Bank now but you are unwilling to pay your debt.

You are also not running away from the US.

I guess your type is exactly what Thailand needs then...

Dutchy

I probably shouldn't even respond to the likes of you, but I can't help myself. Once again, another person who assumes so much and knows so little. Did I say that i have $55,000 in Thai Farmers Bamk, but I just don't want to pay my bills? There's a small sum of money there that wouldn't satisfy the creditors for more than a couple months. It is simple logic to use this money to rebuild and eventually pay off my debts. It is utter stupidity to give it to the creditors, knowing full well that within 2 months they will be back asking for more.

At the end of the day though, everyone is free to agree or disagree or think of me as you will. And I certainly understand some resentment from those that work hard to pay their credit card bills. I did it for many, many years. I have not planned this and I am only trying to make the smartest decisions possible now that I find myself in this situation.

Get a Swiss account, I guarantee they won't be able to lay a finger on it there ......

A Singaporean bank is closer and very close mouthed. No tax at all in the Lion State for non residents, and the banks there have a record of no cooperation with investigators unless the funds banked are the result of criminal activities.

This is very interesting, I didn't know that. I'll check out the banks in Singapore asap.

Mr Bob, why are people telling you all this.. What did you do in the States that makes you worry so much..?

Dutchy

Was unable to pay credit card bills!