Douggie Style

All media is biased, a question of degree and whether overt or covert.

The only way to approximate ‘truth’ is to read widely.

Fox is more dangerous than most propaganda vehicles, because the composition of the US electorate and electoral system allows it to exert great leverage over the political process.

A one vote per person system works best when the vote is from an informed voter.

Many (not all) in the US are not what I would call informed (meaning being across both sides of an issue) and are in fact quite naïve as to the deeper factors behind many issues. This is for various reasons including education, media, culture, electoral system and so on. However on a personal level I have found Americans to be a very kind bunch of people who do try to help.

In any case, the results can be quite catastrophic as recent world events demonstrate.

KerryK (although in my view a tad cynical) makes an excellent analysis, see the full post previously>>

The American political process was corrupted in the 50’s.

The dropping out and dumbing down of the population in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s secured the power base of the industrial military complex. Fox news, CNN and BBC are just tools of various organizations to make people feel they still have a say in government.

I think anyone who takes the fox news reports as absolute truth is in the same boat as anyone who believes Dan Rather. They all have an agenda and it is bought and paid for.

What I find so refreshing about Thailand is the fact that everyone knows everything is fixed.

After reading what has been posted here and this article the case gets even more confusing:>

General Suwat later told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa that under questioning Karr said he had chloroformed the child so that he could rape her in the basement of her home. "He told us that after sex he realised he had accidently killed her," the general said. "He also told us that they loved each other. She was 'his' beauty queen," he added.

Even after Karr's arrest the former Allegheny County Coroner, Dr. Cyril H. Wecht, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Thursday that he still believed the parents were responsible because there was no forensic evidence to implicit an intruder.

Ref: The Nation at http://www.bangkokpost.net/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=112279

I don’t recall there being talk of a rape originally and if so what about the foreign DNA?

going back to the original comment, the over the top aggro (emphasis on the over the top rather than run of the mill) probably is keeping many good people from posting.

Personally I learn a lot from TV and would like to see more factual news, (not meaning the news storys which JD does well) without all the fluff. For example a forum on 'Best corrupt cop shakedown story' , where people put down their experiences without all the comments.

If people want to have a bit of a brain wrestle, why can't an area be set up just for that. eg 'Friday flame war'.

It's to avoid paying back the numerous 'loans'

'Very few people are able to be objective about long time held values.'

so true, our own core values are difficult to see past. These our deepest (earliest) held beliefs often exist almost subliminally .

outside our own turf, these values are not necessarily the norm, and may get offended, you then see a variety of behaviour from acceptance to getting pi__ed about it.

Gosh. Im' boring, wheres terry57's take on it?

PS: Lord Donz,

Thanks mate, nice to know someone elses missus has the stink eye, to be honest it kind of turns me on (I like watching women argue!)

Ok, I am going to sit on the fence here (with my great fat (built for comfort and fence sitting) farang arse).

firstly I agree with GuestHouse that in my experience I have found there is a tendency for Thai's to not want to admit mistakes. A tendency, some have apologised (at work) before. It can be maddening, doubt you can change it, so (Simon) best roll with it.

secondly my Thai partner, absolutley gets stuck into bad service and incorrect dishes. No smiley smiley, don't make waves, she is FIERCE!

Calls them over, goes through practically every ingredient until they get it right. Same with the bill, every minute item is checked, rechecked and calculated. Most times there is some small mistake.

She never gets any blow back, in fact they seem to run around after her, so it makes me wonder about different methods of getting service in Thailand. I have noticed she speaks very calmly but looks very scary> anyone else have similar experience?

to leftcross,

Some intelligent responses already from Totster, tourleadersi, bkkmadness & others.

So the people you refer to, trugding through life, tired, dispirited, mostly through circumstances they can't control, don't feel?

They know when they are being looked down upon, burning daily humilaitions & shame.

So tell me, under your theory, aren't you just trash to someone higher up the ladder?

man oh man, think about the pyschology !!

I think you are going to create a large rod for your own back and probably going to mess this childs feeding patterns up permanently (assuming he doesn't have any medical conditions).

Fast forward a few years with this approach and you will find he might become more and more particular and more and more demanding, cute now, bl--dy hard work later.

We followed the suggestions in a book called 'what to expect the first year', the baby now eats everything, all the fruits and even loves steamed broccoli (go figure) .

PS babies need variety for health reasons

best of luck

Finally something worth reading, good on yer guys!

Sad, depressing story.

People have limits.

Take a ‘good’ person, subject them to a series of tragic events eventually something snaps, sanity, health, violence, we really don’t know what we are capable off until tested.

Just sad for the girl, sad for the boyfriend.

I really don’t think there are any limits (age) in relationships maybe the probabilities just get worse

BTW: What sort of sentance would he be looking at?

Ok as I can't figure out how to edit (delete!) the above a couple of late corrections and a humble pie eating apology.

Since going back and reading all of the comments, instead of just the immediate posts above:>

1. The thread is dealing with a few different cases, my post refers to the Cleghorn case.

2. After reading all of Kat's previous comments, it seems you were actually strongly objecting to misadministation by the NGO's/CWCC (if proven) but weren't happy with the generalising and femonazi labelling. Unfortunately I tuned in when the discussion had gone off into the second part, my error.

Therefore my last comment

'If he is eventually found to be innocent (which will not remove the shadow of taint to follow him forever) I would then really like to get your opinion, Kat.'

is completely unfair to what you posted before and yourself and so my apologies.

By the way, does anyone have any more news on Cleghorn?

The dreaded 8503, my commisserations, what a drama!

If you are still interested, get a copy of the 8503 policy, might find a few interesting twists there. You may also wonder why they didn't give that to you in the begining, enjoy, good bedtime reading.

Each situation is different, there is no one answer fits all.

Visa types vary from simple to very complex.

Rules vary from easy to multi layered.

Agents vary from downright criminally incompetent to absolutley essential.

It goes on.

A good starting point is:

1. Ask yourself what are the consequences of failure?

2. Always have a plan B in advance

3. Read all the opinions on TV, they cover a good range of views

A good cover all bets approach is to research and do as much as possible yourself, then get a final check only.

Finding a good agent is another story all in itself but be wary of referrals, many agents pay a commission for these referrals, often the worst agents are the biggest 'tippers'. Bizarrely once ripped off themselves, some people recover their loss through referring their friends to the same agent!

Good question, good luck.

Well it wouldn't be the first time!

Still....I have some serious doubts about this case, it may just be the exception that proves the rule.

Previously I had a look at some websites on the case and Googled it which brought up some more interesting reading, it just became more and more disturbing and plainly odd, issues such as.

the CWCC allegedly making the complaint only after a refusal by the defendent to sell it his land

the CWCC allegedly, travelling to the village on numerous occasions offering money for witnesses, this didn't work, at first and repeatedly they stated nothing happended, apparently he was a good guy doing a lot of NGO work for the village

one witnesses mother was even on the press record recently as demanding her 'testimony' money from the CWCC

the CWCC directors brother being a judge, the same judge initially involved in the case, since in trouble for corruption involving similar scams working in concert with his sister to assume the assets of expats

the CWCC allegedly receiving a huge amount of foreign funds after it brought the first case to light (the alleged motive)

the CWCC using the same modus operandi on other expats

the failure to inform appellant of the appealit goes on in much more detail than this.

This is from memory. If he is innocent ( I am leaning towards innocent) he has had his whole life completley destroyed after giving so much to the Cambodian people.

The foreign organisations looking at these issues need to take this case on board and be more circumspect in dealing with third world countries. Simply offering vast sums of money in this environment will produce whatever outcomes desired. This may look good for a while but eventually will backfire and set back any legitimate work.

Although pedophilia is abhorred, in western societies natural justice is still applied, this protects against hysteria, such as led to the Inquisitions. Any foreign donor has a responsibility to insist on standards of natural justice and should be held accountable if found to have directly contributed to this situation.

If he is eventually found to be innocent (which will not remove the shadow of taint to follow him forever) I would then really like to get your opinion, Kat.

Dear Mighty Mouse,

Re your comment,

'As we are only talking about a tourist visa here, there is not much that can go wrong.'

is simply not borne out in practice.

My experiences directly related to this area on a day in day out basis, it is a major area of problems especially from Thailand. For verification simply call and ask any pro bono migration lawyer, get a seat first as it will be a long call.

Re your comment;

‘For the sake of any tourist seeking information about a multiple entry visa in this thread, we don't need to introduce questionable scare mongering side issues’

This is really hardly worth responding to.

Forewarned is often forearmed not paranoia or scare mongering, with a visa application you cannot be forewarned enough, if funds are an issue read the Immigration Kit (most recent version) and the DIMA website carefully, if things are unclear you may be able to get pro bono advice however these resources are very limited.

Re your comments:

'Immigration and Customs may have their faults but I believe they try to act in the best interests of Australia first, it's citizens second and Australia's visitors third.

They have no sinister agenda. '

I agree, there is no sinister overall agenda, my apologies if that was the impression given, however the practical results equate to the same outcomes.

For example, have sighted enough files where innocent counter inquiries have been completely misreported/construed and led to serious problems years down the track through a slanted and over suspicious officer coming to wrong conclusions. Again an applicant can be friendly, but certainly circumspect prior to making inquiries.

Being fair DIMA is huge and dealing with an extremely difficult portfolio. Considering the whole you may validly state it works well. If one had an individual good experience(s) you may come to the conclusion things are hunky dory and work equally as well across the board.

Yet when considering individual stuff ups, the consequences are often dire and catastrophic, not only to the individual but also to an entire families future.

Personally have often lodged written complaints to the Cth Ombudsman including the most outrageous situation where DIMA was advised via its own records of a valid visa yet continued an unlawful detention for reasons unknown. You may be aware of the recent inquiry? proof positive complaints do eventually get a result.

I believe encouraging people putting forward different opinions/experiences assists the average punter deal with the immigration process and the transparency tends to keep the system honest. I do not expect my opinions to be unchallenged however again my opinions are based on real life experiences and experiences of my mentors & peers. If they help the readers great, if they think they are stupid/irrelevant/dated, ok, no problems flame on, grilled both sides with some chilli sauce please, I simply don’t have time to respond, I have given my genuine opinion based on genuine experiences in an effort to help, so will sleep easy.

best of luck

Steady on … its all getting a bit obscure.

I went to the Grand Palace with the Thai inlaws and was refused entry to the cheaper Thai entrance, the inlaws were terribly embarrassed and vigorously began arguing with the guard, an unhappy looking fellow who was becoming increasingly agitated and gesticulating wildly. Through all this the only thing I could think of was to smile (not very natural for me) equally vigoursly, this farang in the throes of rabies made them all stop and laugh. (and yes I had to use the other entrance)

Point being, all the generalising being thrown around obscures the fact that there often isn’t any deep seated thought behind dual pricing, it occurs everywhere and is mostly simply opportunistic (like purchasing cheap copied CD’s)

All great posts on a great topic, so will keep it short

Bangkok embassies (visa section) service is notorius, however believe it or not other embassies visa sections are much worse!!

Some of the reasons for problems include the 'local culture' of the embassy (service is not as one would expect if in Australia , arrogant local staff, elements bordering on vindictiveness, communications difficulties) an ingrained attitude of we are here to 'keep out', ie suspect everything until proven, failures to investigate properly, sloppy incomplete applications, failure of applicants to appreciate how long delays can occur from a single missing item, overworked staff, changing management etc etc

Some observations

Keep cool, play for the long game

ALWAYS Lodge a complete application (as far as possible), sloppy ones, lacking in evidences naturally get delayed, it also makes work for your case officer which makes them grumpy. List any elements still to come, send them together not in a dribble.

Record every contact with embassy in writing (hand written diary is good) with brief details

COPY EVERYTHING LODGED

Local officers can be very arrogant/rude, usually all a lot of bluff, my experience is they will quickly pull their heads in if you quietly tell them you are entitled to better service under DIMA/APS (see below) charter (address points) and if continues report any inappropriateness to an Aussie supervisor in writing

Don't get offended if they are suspicious, simply their training, either let it roll past or ask them directly what are their suspicions/problem, then address it

Call regularly but not over regularly and ask them if there is a reason for the delay and what they still need, ask them when if is appropriate to call back, surprisingly can be very productive

Complaining and softly softly both work when applied at the right time and situation, treat them as tools in your arsenal, apply the right tool at the right time

A well written respectful complaint usually does work (to some degree) and does not result in ‘payback’

If you complain, do it in writing, be unemotional and deal with facts, list chronology of problem and details (indicates you are serious)

There are published approximate timelines for action (DIMA website) , appreciate they do need adequate processing time, and complaints about tardiness before this timer has expired will usually get short shrift

DIMA publishes world wide staff contact lists on website

The hierarchy is case officer, supervisor, SMO, PMO

Deal with the SMO first re serious complaints, email is possibly quickest, CO or supervisor for less serious

(if it still exists) check out the APS charter, it lists standards of Cth staff behaviour, not sure if it applies to local Thai embassy staff, a sustained complaint stays on staffs personal record, a serious career stain

Your local MP can be very helpful (they often have a very experienced staff member just for this area)

The ombudsman has powers involving incessant delays (rarely used but if you can get him involved usually solved quickly)

Secretary to the Minister can be very good, be aware is basically as high as you can go within DIMIA system, use with caution and support complaint properly (otherwise will just send it back to embassy or get a stock answer)

Keep posting, the more incompetence that is exposed the more power to anyone ever abused!!!

Good luck.

A multiple tourist visa allows many entries for as long as it is valid.

While there is no set policy (ie you must be away for as long as you're in) there is always the possibility an Immigration Inspector at the airport might decide you are not a genuine tourist, but are in fact using the visa for defacto residence. Refusal of entry and visa cancellation results.

If you are using this sort of visa to gain 12 (or 15 months) stay with a short pop out to a neighboring country every 3 months, be prepared for the worst on each subsequent arrival. In many ways it is the luck of the draw. Many get away with it. Remember previous travel will be looked at before the next visa is issued.

Sorry Old Croc, but this is not accurate advice.

Not meaning to be impolite to Mighty Mouse who has obviously put some great time & effort into his reply but

1. don't take any advice from australian immigration at face value, it is a common misconception they are there to 'assist you', this is not the prime objective which is to enforce the migration laws, they can be very very helpful at times, they can also be very very misleading and will commonly log any statements made at any time on any matter into the database

2. Without making any comment on, or endorsement of, any opinion relating to migration posted here, Old Crocs are famous for being wily wise old beasts

3. If the consequences for a failed visa are serious/important seek proper advice BEFORE speaking to immigration. Look for those with an accrediation in migration law. If you need to save money, prepare all docs and application forms and ask for an opinion only, shouldn't be too expensive but will clue you in to any potential issues BEFORE you get caught in the never forgiving immigration database

Mighty Mouse has done a good job in his reply and deserves credit, however please be careful of taking the stock standard immigration answer as gospel

Burn the condom and wear the mosquito coils, (guaranteed to inhibit pregnancy, like Gandalf in LOR ‘You shall not enter’)

I think the nature of the forum has a lot to do with posts going overboard (instantaneous and anonymous), rather than posters being inherently ‘mean’, once news is out people will comment, often in the heat of the moment.

Not only that (my opinion) the TV is possibly the major source of Thai news for many.

So the question in my mind is, does the obligation to get the news out (and get comments on it which can be helpful as well as negative) override the relatives and friends pain and suffering from reading comments on raw painful often brutal life events in real time?

It’s a fine line, but yeah I agree, isn’t it a matter for a policy and the moderators?

(This could all be a bad cheese induced over tight underwear coffee hangover, induced waffle that will be embarrassing tomorrow.)

Same old story, don’t be too harsh on the lad, we all make mistakes especially in love. Still getter all bitter and sour only makes you old!

It is a good idea to get a trusted Thai friend (or savvy expat)to meet with any potential long term lady friend beforehand. They can pick up a lot that many newbie western guys would miss education, social strata, general honesty. At the end of the day getting the right match from the start avoids most of the other problems.

If you don’t have any trust the whole thing is going to finish sooner or later. People tend to meet expectations either up or down.

Control freaks (male or female) are so boring can't imagine why someone would want to see a partners bank statements even if it was the law?

"That's why I referred to Gardner's Multi-Inteligence test....though I haven't a clue if there is free online tests for that.."

I knew a psych and he was always going on about how useless the 'IQ' test as it was biased towards people similar to those who wrote it. I guess it has improved since then.

Slightly off track, he told this story about a client (a 15yr old kid) who was assessed and placed in a basic maths class at school (slight social disorders) yet was attending Uni maths at night unknown to the school. He was p__ssed off that he wasn't allowed to make this public.

Anyway I thought there is a new method of considering all different types of intelligence (is that the Greens test?) such as spatial, emotional etc, makes far more sense. I think everyone has something going on somewhere, except possibly me at the moment getting hooked on TV forums

Mensa spins me right out, I visualise a bunch of guys, old sweaters, Dungeons & Dragons in full swing, manly smell of sweaty yaks and camembert cheese.

good night

Recruit Maxwell Smart

I think it is a really great idea, the more info & detail the better.

Example, there was a thread recently about a chap who got his drink spiked, it these attacks were all logged, any regular patterns would show up (ie if it is particular bars, locations & so on) this may help the rest from falling into the same trap.

Not only that, the statistics could be used for lobbying in all sorts of ways.

Go for it, idea of the month award!

I brag about the width!