Mike Teavee

27 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I have mentioned a few times now this topic that a likely extension scenario based upon monthly income would be proof in a Thai passbook account that 65K baht monthly has arrived as an international (FTT) transfer for 12 months or whatever.

 

This is because, for the last 10 years or so, I have signed an income affidavit  from the US Embassy-Bangkok the current (and last) version of which says:

 

I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $__xx_____ from sources in the United States.

 

Whether this becomes the only option, or an option at all, who knows.

That doesn't say anything about it coming into Thailand, that just says you "Receive" that amount, the monies could be paid into an account anywhere, you've still "Received" it.

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

One thing I miss about working is not having to mess with any of this...

 

Lol, no I work in Singapore so you could argue it's worse as not only do I need to do my Non-O for Thailand (Thanks to them clamping down & grilling people who enter numerous times on Visa Exempt) + have to do my Employment Pass for Singapore.

But in reality, that just involves re-submitting a form to an agency the company uses every 3 years then being mindful when I travel to take a letter with me for a couple of weeks.

45 minutes ago, Larryst said:

I think the most problem is. Since the U.S. won't issued income affidavits after 31 December. Will the Thai Immigration accept your bank statements & info. Will they accept printed ones from online? Will they accept the SSA verification letter of benefits or other letters of annuities? Has anyone used them instead of the income affidavits? Has anyone contacted SSA to verify they will have direct deposits next year to Thai banks? Instead of posting scenarios. I plan on doing my 90 day check in and show them my bank statements and letters. Then I will find out, what actions I should do in the future. Maybe members posting should just go into immigration and show their documents and then post what would be accepted and what is not accepted.  

You can try & full marks for doings so, but I doubt any "Office Level" staff have any information yet.

A better approach might be to attend the meeting on 7th November mentioned a few pages back [Perhaps somebody could re-post the details, I'm off to work now]...

EDIT: Meeting is is Udon Thani... 

Just got his in an STEP email.

The Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok is pleased to provide services in Udon Thani.

Date: 7 November 2018
Time:  12:00pm – 3:00pm  
Venue:  Centara Hotel & Convention Centre Udon Thani
Address: 277/1 Prajaksillapakhom Road, Amphur Muang, Udon Thani 41000, Thailand
Hotel phone: +66 (0) 4234 3555

E-mail: [email protected]

10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I/m not so sure that is the case- if the Thai Imm had evidence of fraud why didn't they notify the  US Embassy- there is an FBI unit attached to the Embassy. Instead- the Thai imm appears to want the letter for everyone.  I suspect there are other reasons for all this and it has to do with a lack of communication between Embassies UK/US and Thai imm.

TI wouldn't have any evidence, the IO would ask for proof of what was on the form & either it didn't exist at all (So it couldn't be shown) or it had different numbers (so you would have to be a moron to show it).

Even if somebody did show invalid docs they could just say they were missing something... & even if they didn't, the IO wouldn't know to (or how to) raise it to the FBI so would just send them on their way telling them to come back when they had the correct documentation.

IF you hand-on-heart believe that nobody abused the system I've got a bridge for sale.

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The required funds are 800K for a retirement-based extension.  But the solution is to have the 800K in one-spouse's acct, get the retirement-extension for them, then have the other "piggy-back" with a Non-O extension as the spouse / family-member of the other.  No financials are required for the 2nd applicant.

Interesting option, any restrictions / differences on the 2nd extension (e.g. is it like the 60 days you get for visiting a dependent or do you also get 1 year) 

17 minutes ago, Cruzn said:

Could someone clarify the distinction between the 400,000 and 800,000 baht accounts?  I understand that the 800,000 is required for one individual.  But if there is married couple, both Americans, is it 400,000 each or 800,000 each?  Thanks!

The 400k is for a Foreign Man married to a Thai Woman, it would be 800K each for 2 foreigners (married or not)

20 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Why would someone have to transfer funds on a monthly basis to a Thai Bank- when I can go to a Thai ATM  or go into a Thai Bank with my ATM cards and get  funds up to my limit each day or whenever I need money.  The ATM slips show the money came from abroad- my Foreign ATM Card number is embossed on the slip itself with a balance.  Best proof there is- and real time. 

I suppose I could take  out 65K each month  and then redeposit the money in a Thai bank and then use a Thai ATM card to get money out again  However-makes no sense and a complete waste of time and effort.  

1. We're talking about "Proof" of income your ATM slips would only show how much you withdrew & the remaining balance, besides can you really see Thai Immigration wanting to wade through (presumably) 3 months of ATM slips?
2. I don't believe your plan of taking it out of your US Bank & depositing it in your Thai Bank will work as I think they'll want to see funds being transferred in from overseas (I know there are legitimate ways of evening money in Thailand but I personally don't think they'll accept these or at best will want to see a Tax Return)

(IMHO) The easiest thing for Thai Immigration to do is to only accept the 800/400K in the bank route, the next easiest thing is for them to accept "Evidence" of Income by seeing funds going into a Thai Bank account, once you get beyond that then (IMHO) you introduce too many variables & make it too complicated for them to do.

FWIW I also think there will be further tightening up (i.e. they'll want to see the source of the funds & will limit what they will accept as is already being reported in Phuket) if they did accept any deposits then start to suspect people were gaming the system by cycling the funds.

All pure speculation on my part, but if I were drafting the rules, I know I would want to make it as simple as possible.

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I'm open to other theories which reflect how immigration really functions.

Our theories/beliefs tend to be biased by our personal circumstances/needs so whilst Occam's to you seems to be everything is about Immigration being corrupt, Occam's to me says it's about stamping out people living/working here illegally (You can argue that my view is Naive if I can argue your's is anachronistic ????).

Whether you agree with it or not (& I don't) Thailand believes that Expats need 65,000 pm to live on, so if you can't prove this (I believe that) they believe you're working illegally to make up the difference.

Whether people can live on less than 65K (& I know I could if I had to) is irrelevant, that's the limit which they've decided on & at the end of the day their "Opinion" is the only one that counts. 

I can see the argument that it doesn't make sense to not take into consideration things like:-

• Own your own home -  (should reduce the requirement by 30%)
• Have health care (should reduce the requirement by 15%)
• Lifestyle (Don't drink, smoke, chase women - reduce requirement by another 50%)

... But I can also see how they don't have the skills/knowledge/time to review the myriad of different documentation that would go along with these (and how would you prove the last one!)

7 hours ago, White Tiger said:

They wanted to see an embassy letter stating an amount of GBP and sent me packing. That was a few years ago.

Hopefully from 1st January the "Rules" will have changed and Thai Immigration will accept proof of deposit as proof of income, at least for British/US Citizens who's Embassies have stopped issuing the letters.

Ass-u-me-ing they will accept proof of deposits as proof of income, it's yet to be advised:-

• How many months proof they want
• Whether the deposits need to come from overseas or can come from Rental, Dividends etc... income in Thailand
• Whether they'll accept proof from an overseas bank 

If they align it with the 800/400K proof, they logically (use the word lightly we are talking government agencies here) would want to see:-

• 2 months income coming from overseas for a conversion (Tourist Visa to Non-O etc..)
• 2 months any income on 1st Extension application 
• 3 months any income on subsequent Extension applications

However, my best guess is they will ask for 3 months income coming from overseas (may accept in-country income backed up with a Thai Tax return) in all circumstances

17 minutes ago, Notagain said:

What were they taking advantage of ? It wasnt costing the gov anything, in fact those few people that were gaming the system still spent their money here. And if it is a clampdown like you say why only the american and british are under these new rules what about all the other nationalities ?

So there was nobody who lied about having the required levels of income working illegally - All of the Clampdowns (Exempt, ED, Tourist & now Non-O) are trying to identify/prevent people from working illegally.

There are no new rules, Thai Immigration still accepts letters of Income (+ proof backing this up) it's just that BE & USE will not be issuing them anymore - Nobody has changed any "Rules" and that is the problem for Brits/Americans, we need a rule change to continue to be able to use the Income method...

2 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Then tell me what is the reason for this sudden change in requirements ? The system was working just fine for many many years, Now they want 400/800K baht in their banking system for what reason ??? What is your theory for the sudden change with little notice.

IMHO - People taking advantage of the current system has caused Immigration to clamp down.

Same with all of the other Clampdowns, a small number of people abuse the system and the majority of people who abide by the rules suffer.

2 hours ago, jimn said:

Thanks for your comment Jimmy. However it is my experience that all Thai bank atms always charge 220 baht withdrwal fee on overseas cards.

I believe the Charles Schwab card refunds local ATM fees at the end of each month

1 hour ago, hwaetu Go said:

Thanks to Mike TeaV and Crab for responding with the following (see below). Does this mean then that the monthly income must come into a Thai bank each month ex. to show the equivalent of 65,000 baht over the previous 6 months? I now have a three month non-o visa due Jan 3, for which I believe I can get one or more  extensions. You mentioned getting an "income letter" which has 6 month validity. What is that? The Embassy I herd is not providing that now, correct?

 

So, what does this mean to those who actually have monthly income coming in from income abroad (example rentals (not retirement pension) totaling the monthly 65K baht figure afore necessary? 

To save you reading the previous 111 pages...

• In short, nobody knows for sure yet
• Both the British & US Embassies have said that you'll be able to use proof of deposits into a Thai Bank account, the source & frequency requirements for these are not known yet
• Both Embassies will issue Certificate of Income up to the end of the year (For British Embassy you need to get your request in by 12th December) & Thai Immigration have said they will accept them up to 6 months after issue date.

So if you're planning on using the income method & your renewal is due before the end of July (Mid August in some places) it would be prudent to get your Income letter this year (obviously being mindful of the 6 month validity period, don't get it now if you're renewal is due after 1st June) otherwise make whatever contingency plans you feel are appropriate for you to mitigate against the risk of not being able to use proof of income.

 

Or just ignore it & deal with things when the time comes... 

 

How were you planning on extending?

If you plan on using the income method then certificates are still available to the end of the year, assuming you're from the US you'll need to make an appointment online then go in to complete a Statutory Declaration form on which you'll provide details of your income which the US Embassy won't verify (they only verify your identity & attest that you were the person signing the form) but I would strongly advise you only include income that you can prove on there in case Immigration want to see the supporting documents.

British Embassy is done via email & Australian Embassy is same as the US.

You can extend your visa (technically you're extending your permission to stay) 30 (45 in some places) days before it's due so I would recommend getting the Income Certificate over the next few weeks then extending early December (End date of the Extension will still be 3rd January 2020 whether you extend 3rd of December or 3rd January but you want to give yourself some breathing space in case you need additional documents)

4 minutes ago, Maestro said:

For me, profit from the sale of investment securities (shares, fund certificates, etc) is money earned; it is income. Whether or not this type of income needs to be declared as income in the annual tax return depends on the law of the land.

Have to confess I've never looked at it like that, but my thinking is probably clouded from the UK system where any Capital Gains is distinct from Income [very important for people who are Non-UK Resident for Tax purposes as they don't pay Capital Gains tax, as the BM who started this thread fork also stated that he didn't].

Anyway, per post above, it's irrelevant... I accept was mistaken when it comes to the US (& we are in a US thread ????) so let's move on ????

3 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

As I understand it (at least in the the US) capital gains are taxed as income, just at a different rate.

They have to be included as income on a US tax return, yes?

 

You may well be right for the purpose of US Tax Returns, but as the name implies Capital Gains is a one-time profit that you make on selling an Asset.  Once sold, you no longer own that Asset so it cannot provide you with an income so how could it be used to prove your income?

it's irrelevant for this topic anyway as the US Embassy doesn't care (and certainly won't after 31st December) & Thai Immigration wouldn't understand it.

20 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I am no trying to scare anyone- That is the exact amount I lost after the 1997 Baht devaluation which sent the Dollar from 25 to the dollar to around 44.  I have been coming to Thailand for almost 50 years- the Baht had been pretty stable from the early 70s to 1997- so there was no idea that  there would be a huge devaluation. Once in a lifetime-  there was a Great Depression; there was the Baht devaluation; then in 2008 the whole  World  economy almost imploded.

You don't have to agree with anything I said but  History is on my side, I have  been through 3 Coups in Thailand- There is an election in Feb/March 2019.   Risk is in the eyes of the beholder- I wont be putting any money in a Thai bank until mid 2019  at the earliest if ever.  Caveat Emptor.  Please go right ahead and delude yourself .  It's your money- not mine. Mine will stay in the USA where a Dollar is still a Dollar.

How did you lose the money?

Did you bring a load of money over at one rate & repatriate later at a worse rate or is it more a case of if you'd have brought the money over later you would have got an extra $22,000?

A Baht is still a Baht if you live there, it's only when moving money into/out of the country are you gaining/losing $s

1 minute ago, elviajero said:

Yes. Returning to their home country every 2 years is an option for those that don't want to put 800K in a Thai bank or can't provide proof of income.

Sorry, I misread your post, I read it as you were saying people who are > 50 but are not retired shouldn't get the Non-O but should get a Non-OA instead.

But the Non-OA is a very good option for people who don't want to put the 800k in an account & cannot prove the income.

13 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

A problem for those relying on dividends as those are usually paid quarterly not monthly.

Sent from my SM-J701F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Not really a problem, just divide the dividend by the number of months it covers & send that.

E.g. 1 of my Stocks pays the Final in May and the Interim in September so if I had to show monthly income, I would divide May's by 4 & send equal amounts in May, Jun, Jul, Aug, then divide Septembers by 8 & send equal amounts in Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, result being 12x Dividend payments ????

Pain in the backside & an expensive way of getting the total over, but if needs must then it's not difficult to do.

2 hours ago, JLCrab said:

And maybe for at least the remaining 10% -

 

You put your money in
You take your money out
You put your money in
And you shake it all about
You do the hokey pokey
Turn money all around
That's what it's all about

Here's an idea... (Not targeted at you JL but a different take on the Money IN/OUT hokey pokey).

1. Find a mate who is using the 800K in the bank method & bringing in cash from outside Thailand to use for spends 
2. Get him to transfer the cash to your account instead of his
3. Give him the Thai Baht
4. Buy him a beer ???? 

5 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Retirement extensions are meant for people that don't work (retired). There's a clue in the name.

 

I understand some people don't want to keep money in Thailand, but that's a choice. If you -- can't/don't want to -- meet the criteria you can't get the extension.

 

Sounds like, if you're over 50, you'd be best off with Non 'O-A' (long stay) visa.

But the extension for this would be exactly the same as the Non-O Visa or are you saying they should be made to go back to their home country every 2 years to get a new Non-OA?

15 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

You are referring to unrealized capital gains yes?

Once you sell, I believe the net gain is taxable.

 

No... I'm referring to the fact that Capital Gains are not Income hence any Tax to be paid is "Capital Gains Tax" not "Income Tax".

Whether Thai Immigration accept this as proof of income is another thing, but really it's no different than selling any other asset (House, Car etc...) 

2 hours ago, Pattaya46 said:

There are no taxes on capital gain made on stock exchange.

There are taxes on dividends, but deduced automatically before they are paid to you.

 

But yes, Thai banks documents of such incomes certainly would be no problem for extensions. (A lot easier to verify than foreign incomes )

Capital gains are not income (the name does give it away somewhat)...