Mike Teavee

58 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Sounds like a good plan- I almost am starting to think an elite  visa  is the way to go- no bank transfer; no money in the bank crap-you buy your visa for 5 years. End of story- Cheers.

Also my Plan B, though at 52 (53 when Extension is due) would be the 20 year option.

On the fence about getting one anyway as I'm still working & the only reason I got my Non-O was because I enter/exit 2-3 times a month & had concerns about being denied on a Visa Exempt stamp (Thanks to them clamping down on perceived VIsa Runners), an Elite VIsa would enable me to use Fast Track Arrivals/Departure & save me 2-3 hours a month (average 30mins each side). 

I use the 800K in the Bank + Wire over 80-120K a month for spends, but any significant changes to valid proof of Income (e.g. If they insist on seeing it even if you have 800K & insist on it coming from a State Pension that's 15 years away for me) would be the final  straw to  push me over.

Prepare for the worse & hope for the best...

5 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

There have been reports for years that they have asked for added proof- including from me and others- Since they accepted the proof- obviously they know what to look for or they wouldn't have asked for it. It is not that hard.

 

Thai Imm has changed nothing and don't have to change anything- The Police Order stands- what they have to do is follow their own Police Order which accommodates  Everyone in every circumstance and I have to believe that is why it is written as such.

 

I can envision a situation in which an applicant the first year has to produce many types of proof showing income and if it is guaranteed for life- no need to show it again./  I can envision they could ask someone who has 800K in the bank to show their income stream. I can envision many things but I would rather keep  the current police order because it can accommodate many  types of people who live in Thailand. The stricter and more narrow Thai Imm makes it- the less accommodating.  

 

 

 

Apologies, I added this to my post above after you had quoted it...  

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Edit: By the current act, it would be acceptable for somebody to provide proof of income from:-

• Any Financial institute anywhere (language considerations aside, opens up massive risk of fraudulent evidence)  
• Any source - How can you expect them to understand how Pensions work in every country or investment income (Do you understand Scrip Dividends these are income but would you say they should be included)? or Rental income or any of the other ways you can get legitimate income in your own country... 
• In any language - Police Act doesn't seem to state it has to be in Thai/English

... It's just illogical to think that they won't have to limit what is & what's not acceptable the debate is only on what these limits are - So the Police Act can stay the same but practise can change or the Police Act can change & practise can change - But Practise will change.

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I think we're in agreement that:-

1. Things will change irrespective of whether the Police Act changes or not
2. What these changes will be is anybody's guess but there will be some limits on what they will accept as proof
3. (Unfortunately) some genuine people will be impacted
4. People will find a way around whatever rules are put in place
5. There will be more changes in the future 

I just sincerely hope that there is some mechanism for supporting people who:

• Were not aware that their embassy had stopped issuing the letters (Seems US has emailed people, UK & Australia to the best of my knowledge haven't)
• Who's life/family are here & for whatever reason can't meet the requirements but can prove that they're not a burden on the state (e.g. Maybe their wife earns enough salary to support the whole family)

20 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I am not advocating Thai Imm do anything- in fact I am advocating for Thai Imm to do nothing except use the current Police Order of 2014 which allows all kind of ways to prove income. That allows you to transfer money in; that allows me to use my income letters and ATM; that allows people to take cash and place it into a Thai bank and show the proof ; it allows foreigners in Thailand to  use their business income to meet the requirement.  Simple, easy, change nothing and simply forget about the Embassy Letter. I am not asking them to do anything at all..  It appears to me others are advocating for them to change to accommodate their way. 

But they (currently) only do this by exception, in the vast majority of cases they have been accepting what it says on the Income Letter from the Embassy, maybe (rarely) a cursory glance at the documents behind it but certainly no in-depth review 

As the Income Letters will no longer exist, they would be forced to review all proof of income&  simply don't have the knowledge or bandwidth to do this and why would they when it's easy for them to insist on proof coming from a small number of Thai sources that they can easily review/understand/confirm.

Edit: By the current act, it would be acceptable for somebody to provide proof of income from:-

• Any Financial institute anywhere (language considerations aside, opens up massive risk of fraudulent evidence)  
• Any source - How can you expect them to understand how Pensions work in every country or investment income (Do you understand Scrip Dividends these are income but would you say they should be included)? or Rental income or any of the other ways you can get legitimate income in your own country... 
• In any language - Police Act doesn't seem to state it has to be in Thai/English

... It's just illogical to think that they won't have to limit what is & what's not acceptable the debate is only on what these limits are - So the Police Act can stay the same but practise can change or the Police Act can change & practise can change - But Practise will change.

16 minutes ago, Lovethailandelite said:

Good morning.
Let me explain one more time, as I explained that other Embassy's would follow suit when the BE broke the news regarding Letters of income and indeed, other Embassy's 'Will' be doing the same. No Embassy we are aware of, can or want's to be involved with categorically verifying income. It is simply not going to be happening.
There will be no acceptance of 'Anything' other than 'regular monthly foreign transfers' into a Thai bank account of 40/65k or the banked funds of 800/400k baht. No combination, no ATM receipts, no letters from foreign institutions, taking money from your wife's account etc It will need to be a straight foreign transfer that can be seen in your account. Nobody will be bothered where the funds generate from so long as the source is 'Foreign based' and can be seen entering Thailand.
You need to start making preparations to do it as I have explained above and not waste time thinking anything is going to change. It isn't. All of the scenarios people are coming up with are simply not going to excepted. Of course, it's your choice if you except what I am saying or not.
Enjoy your day.

Agree with everything you say except I would add that I believe they will accept evidence of income from within Thailand backed up with a Thai Tax statement (They may limit this to Salary & Proof of having a work permit).

They simply have to do this to cater for (I believe the majority of) people living here on "Marriage Extensions" & may well limit this option to people on MEs (We all know these are harder for TI to process than Retirement Extensions & there have been many reports of people being encouraged/told to move to RE from ME).

12 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

My apology for not quoting properly-

 

Mike- I bring at least 65K into Thailand each month and have already done it  for November and it is only the 5th.  I have  several US accounts- when I need money I go to a Thai ATM- and get what I need-  Why should I or anyone have to transfer the money into Thailand  via  Swift- Tranferwise or other when there is no  logical reason to do it nor does the Police Order say I have to do it.  I  place xx amount in my wife's  bank account and keep some pocket money.

 

I could take the 65K  and deposit it into a Thai Bank and then transfer it into  my wife's account. I could have 65K transferred to  her account or my account from the US. Why?  Thai Imm seems to be interested in proving one actually has a guaranteed income.   I can show them my income letter from US Social Security and another Government Pension; I can show them my US Bank Account  which shows the exact amount of direct deposit which will match my 2 letters of proof.  The bank account shows where the money is debited to include the exact location in Thailand where the money  is debited. I can show the Debit cards and i can even show the  ATM slips.  Some people say- that  takes too much time  for Thai Imm to look at. It doesn't  Four pages in all which proves immediately what needs to be proved ( They asked for this proof before- took 1-2 minutes for the Thai Imm to understand and accept it)

In addition, the Police Order states evidence of income- it does not say the income has to be in Thailand   I have a whole  desk filled with Thai bank books- stopped using Thai Banks  in 1997  after I lost $22,000 repatriating money to the Us when the Thai Baht was devalued.  When I returned to Thailand- I found that I didn't need Thai banks for anything. Why would I need to transfer money- each month when I can get  money from an aTM machine. This is the 21st Century.

 

If I have to go back and use them- I will but I am not advocating  that as the only way to prove income as it creates problems for those who live in Thailand and have legal, local income.  Shall we simply say because they are 10% of the population we should just forget about them.

 

Since Thai Imm has accepted  income proof before such as foreign bank letters and  accounts- it is obvious they know how to read them.   This is not brain surgery- it's simple and easy. 

I semi understand your reluctance to bring in the 800/400K but I'm sure no country will write it's immigration rules to cater for people who think it's currency is going to nose dive (again) or believe its Banking system is corrupt (which seems to be others argument for not doing it).

The "Why should you" transfer the income across each month is simply because it would make it easier for Thai Immigration to confirm, by your own view currently this would be 4 pages of foreign documents (even restricting this to English only there are a myriad of different formats/figures that they could be presented with when they could be looking at 1 sheet in a standard format in Thai.

Again, anybody legitimately earning an income in Thailand should be filing Thai Tax returns & so should be able to prove this (I think a large % of Married guys would fall into this camp), people renting out condos without declaring the income will be impacted by this whether they're legal or not depends on their circumstances but again, you can't expect any country to write its immigration rules to cater for people earning money in the country and not declaring it.

2 hours ago, Thaidream said:

I  have no idea what you are talking about-  I can walk into  the US Embassy today-  or next year and  file a blank affidavit stating my income and swear to it- My income can come from any source.  The Blank affidavit example is on the US Embassy Website.  I have used them before  

 

My point is simply the more restrictive Thai Imm  becomes for people the  more people will have a hard time  -even though they have the required income.  I choose to wish for the best.

But would Thai Immigration accept this "Blank" affidavit or would they want to see the standard one that includes the statement about income coming from the US?

1 hour ago, Thaidream said:

Actually- I do see it as Thai Imm sees it  because I know what is in the Police Order and so do you because you have quoted the police order many times.  If Thai Imm wanted to exclude  people- they would have changed the order .

 

Once you start making everything and everyone suspect and refuse to accept  genuine evidence of income source (pension letters, company letters  backed by a bank statement -foreign or domestic)  as well as  eliminate  legitimate people running a small business in Thailand  chaos is created.  Then  the retiree who has 800K in the bank  is asked to  show their income stream and  many do not have  65K per month to live on. Where does it stop.  

 

The more ways to show 65K income/40K Income is better for everyone and Thailand in general.  It has nothing to do with how I want it to be- It is how everyone should want it to be because that is what  is fair and equitable. You have to stand up for everyone

The post you quoted came from @elviajeronot me, but as you did quote me I'll spout my view ???? 

It's human nature to view things from our own point of view & how we want them to be, especially if it has a personal (& significant) impact on us.

The more ways to show 65/40K income may be better for a minority of Expats & may even be better for Thailand in general (Not going to discuss the negative/inflation impact of foreign capital influx here) BUT it would certainly be worse for Thai Immigration & as a knock on effect worse for the majority of Expats following a "Simpler" model (if only for the length of queues doing your extensions, a problem that can be solved agreed but a problem none the less).

So my question to you would be, why do you believe the rules should be made in such a way to support those who choose to not bring their income into Thailand & why shouldn't those individuals change their ways to fit in with the rules (or what most replies seem to think will be) & bring this income into Thailand... ... ... Should the Mountain come to Mohammed?

^^^ Australian Embassy has also said they won't be issuing Income Certificates from 7th January 2019

Who's next?  

5 hours ago, elviajero said:

The people you describe are a tiny percentage of expats. Less than 1% IMO.

 

If immigration insist on confirmation of funds from abroad before issuing a visa/extension it proves that is where they expect the funds you’re living on should come from generally.

 

You don’t see it how immigration see it, but how you see it and want it to be.

Added to this a (IMHO large) proportion of that < 1% will have (or have no problem depositing) 800K in their Bank Account.

However, I think that the proportion of people doing Extensions based on being Married & earning their income in Thailand is much higher so I do believe that they will (have to) accept monies coming from inside Thailand & supported by a Thai income tax statements as one of their valid proofs of income.

So I think we'll end up with the acceptable methods being:-

• Proof of External income - Letter from Thai Bank stating deposits totalling > 200K/150K  over the previous 3 months (I know this is different than the current 65/40K but if overhauling the system why not take the opportunity to tweak the numbers) 
• Proof of Internal income - Thai Tax Statement
• Confirmation of deposit - 800/400K  (Wouldn't be surprised if this didn't go to >1M/500k 

Only people this would seem to exclude would be:-

• Those who choose not to bring funds over - I can't see Thai Immigration acknowledging these even exist but if they did, would take the view that it's the individual's choice to not be able to meet the criteria 
• Those who do not have the funds to bring over 

There will always be ways to skirt around the rules but as these are discovered they will also be clamped down on to the detriment of those following the rules. 

E.G...

• Thai Immigration suspects people are "Re-cycling" the same 65K
• They start asking for proof for where the money comes from
• Obviously they don't have the knowledge/bandwidth to be able to understand all sources so limit what they will accept
• Results in more people with genuine proof of income not being able to use it

17 minutes ago, Thian said:

tm-6 tm-30 tm-28  mate i have no idea what that all means....i know that i have a multiple visa to stay with my wife cause i'm married....they all know her, her phone, address, email, they even called her to check me out....i think i do fine and if not they know where to find me...

The only time it may (depending on your immigration office) become a problem is if you need to do any "Business" with them e.g. Extension, 90 day reporting, resident certificates etc... None of these seems relevant to your particular circumstances but that doesn't mean that there isn't (technically) a requirement to do so.

I'm on a Non-O ME but fly in & out every 1-3 weeks so don't bother filing them either, but technically I'm supposed to (or I'm at least supposed to let my condo office know I'm back so they can file it) each time I come back.

Australia is the latest embassy to announce they’re stopping issuing the income letters...

Thread discussing all the same things as this/US thread here   https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1066282-australia-joins-the-uk-and-usa-with-withdrawal-of-income-verification/

46 minutes ago, zydeco said:

If so, then Thai Immigration should start with the issuance of new visas, including Non-B.  That is the easiest way to cut down on incoming Westerners.  

Why would they do that if they suspect there are people staying here who do not have the required levels of funds/income they want to see?

Besides, Thai Immigration don’t issue the visas so would have no control over what amounts people have:prove. E.G Savannakhet will give you a Non-O Marriage  visa with no financial proof 

27 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I have mentioned a few times now this topic that a likely extension scenario based upon monthly income would be proof in a Thai passbook account that 65K baht monthly has arrived as an international (FTT) transfer for 12 months or whatever.

 

This is because, for the last 10 years or so, I have signed an income affidavit  from the US Embassy-Bangkok the current (and last) version of which says:

 

I also affirm that I receive a monthly income of $__xx_____ from sources in the United States.

 

Whether this becomes the only option, or an option at all, who knows.

That doesn't say anything about it coming into Thailand, that just says you "Receive" that amount, the monies could be paid into an account anywhere, you've still "Received" it.

2 minutes ago, mogandave said:

 

One thing I miss about working is not having to mess with any of this...

 

Lol, no I work in Singapore so you could argue it's worse as not only do I need to do my Non-O for Thailand (Thanks to them clamping down & grilling people who enter numerous times on Visa Exempt) + have to do my Employment Pass for Singapore.

But in reality, that just involves re-submitting a form to an agency the company uses every 3 years then being mindful when I travel to take a letter with me for a couple of weeks.

45 minutes ago, Larryst said:

I think the most problem is. Since the U.S. won't issued income affidavits after 31 December. Will the Thai Immigration accept your bank statements & info. Will they accept printed ones from online? Will they accept the SSA verification letter of benefits or other letters of annuities? Has anyone used them instead of the income affidavits? Has anyone contacted SSA to verify they will have direct deposits next year to Thai banks? Instead of posting scenarios. I plan on doing my 90 day check in and show them my bank statements and letters. Then I will find out, what actions I should do in the future. Maybe members posting should just go into immigration and show their documents and then post what would be accepted and what is not accepted.  

You can try & full marks for doings so, but I doubt any "Office Level" staff have any information yet.

A better approach might be to attend the meeting on 7th November mentioned a few pages back [Perhaps somebody could re-post the details, I'm off to work now]...

EDIT: Meeting is is Udon Thani... 

Just got his in an STEP email.

The Consular Section of the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok is pleased to provide services in Udon Thani.

Date: 7 November 2018
Time:  12:00pm – 3:00pm  
Venue:  Centara Hotel & Convention Centre Udon Thani
Address: 277/1 Prajaksillapakhom Road, Amphur Muang, Udon Thani 41000, Thailand
Hotel phone: +66 (0) 4234 3555

E-mail: [email protected]

10 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

I/m not so sure that is the case- if the Thai Imm had evidence of fraud why didn't they notify the  US Embassy- there is an FBI unit attached to the Embassy. Instead- the Thai imm appears to want the letter for everyone.  I suspect there are other reasons for all this and it has to do with a lack of communication between Embassies UK/US and Thai imm.

TI wouldn't have any evidence, the IO would ask for proof of what was on the form & either it didn't exist at all (So it couldn't be shown) or it had different numbers (so you would have to be a moron to show it).

Even if somebody did show invalid docs they could just say they were missing something... & even if they didn't, the IO wouldn't know to (or how to) raise it to the FBI so would just send them on their way telling them to come back when they had the correct documentation.

IF you hand-on-heart believe that nobody abused the system I've got a bridge for sale.

12 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

The required funds are 800K for a retirement-based extension.  But the solution is to have the 800K in one-spouse's acct, get the retirement-extension for them, then have the other "piggy-back" with a Non-O extension as the spouse / family-member of the other.  No financials are required for the 2nd applicant.

Interesting option, any restrictions / differences on the 2nd extension (e.g. is it like the 60 days you get for visiting a dependent or do you also get 1 year) 

17 minutes ago, Cruzn said:

Could someone clarify the distinction between the 400,000 and 800,000 baht accounts?  I understand that the 800,000 is required for one individual.  But if there is married couple, both Americans, is it 400,000 each or 800,000 each?  Thanks!

The 400k is for a Foreign Man married to a Thai Woman, it would be 800K each for 2 foreigners (married or not)

20 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Why would someone have to transfer funds on a monthly basis to a Thai Bank- when I can go to a Thai ATM  or go into a Thai Bank with my ATM cards and get  funds up to my limit each day or whenever I need money.  The ATM slips show the money came from abroad- my Foreign ATM Card number is embossed on the slip itself with a balance.  Best proof there is- and real time. 

I suppose I could take  out 65K each month  and then redeposit the money in a Thai bank and then use a Thai ATM card to get money out again  However-makes no sense and a complete waste of time and effort.  

1. We're talking about "Proof" of income your ATM slips would only show how much you withdrew & the remaining balance, besides can you really see Thai Immigration wanting to wade through (presumably) 3 months of ATM slips?
2. I don't believe your plan of taking it out of your US Bank & depositing it in your Thai Bank will work as I think they'll want to see funds being transferred in from overseas (I know there are legitimate ways of evening money in Thailand but I personally don't think they'll accept these or at best will want to see a Tax Return)

(IMHO) The easiest thing for Thai Immigration to do is to only accept the 800/400K in the bank route, the next easiest thing is for them to accept "Evidence" of Income by seeing funds going into a Thai Bank account, once you get beyond that then (IMHO) you introduce too many variables & make it too complicated for them to do.

FWIW I also think there will be further tightening up (i.e. they'll want to see the source of the funds & will limit what they will accept as is already being reported in Phuket) if they did accept any deposits then start to suspect people were gaming the system by cycling the funds.

All pure speculation on my part, but if I were drafting the rules, I know I would want to make it as simple as possible.

7 hours ago, JackThompson said:

I'm open to other theories which reflect how immigration really functions.

Our theories/beliefs tend to be biased by our personal circumstances/needs so whilst Occam's to you seems to be everything is about Immigration being corrupt, Occam's to me says it's about stamping out people living/working here illegally (You can argue that my view is Naive if I can argue your's is anachronistic ????).

Whether you agree with it or not (& I don't) Thailand believes that Expats need 65,000 pm to live on, so if you can't prove this (I believe that) they believe you're working illegally to make up the difference.

Whether people can live on less than 65K (& I know I could if I had to) is irrelevant, that's the limit which they've decided on & at the end of the day their "Opinion" is the only one that counts. 

I can see the argument that it doesn't make sense to not take into consideration things like:-

• Own your own home -  (should reduce the requirement by 30%)
• Have health care (should reduce the requirement by 15%)
• Lifestyle (Don't drink, smoke, chase women - reduce requirement by another 50%)

... But I can also see how they don't have the skills/knowledge/time to review the myriad of different documentation that would go along with these (and how would you prove the last one!)

7 hours ago, White Tiger said:

They wanted to see an embassy letter stating an amount of GBP and sent me packing. That was a few years ago.

Hopefully from 1st January the "Rules" will have changed and Thai Immigration will accept proof of deposit as proof of income, at least for British/US Citizens who's Embassies have stopped issuing the letters.

Ass-u-me-ing they will accept proof of deposits as proof of income, it's yet to be advised:-

• How many months proof they want
• Whether the deposits need to come from overseas or can come from Rental, Dividends etc... income in Thailand
• Whether they'll accept proof from an overseas bank 

If they align it with the 800/400K proof, they logically (use the word lightly we are talking government agencies here) would want to see:-

• 2 months income coming from overseas for a conversion (Tourist Visa to Non-O etc..)
• 2 months any income on 1st Extension application 
• 3 months any income on subsequent Extension applications

However, my best guess is they will ask for 3 months income coming from overseas (may accept in-country income backed up with a Thai Tax return) in all circumstances

17 minutes ago, Notagain said:

What were they taking advantage of ? It wasnt costing the gov anything, in fact those few people that were gaming the system still spent their money here. And if it is a clampdown like you say why only the american and british are under these new rules what about all the other nationalities ?

So there was nobody who lied about having the required levels of income working illegally - All of the Clampdowns (Exempt, ED, Tourist & now Non-O) are trying to identify/prevent people from working illegally.

There are no new rules, Thai Immigration still accepts letters of Income (+ proof backing this up) it's just that BE & USE will not be issuing them anymore - Nobody has changed any "Rules" and that is the problem for Brits/Americans, we need a rule change to continue to be able to use the Income method...

2 minutes ago, Notagain said:

Then tell me what is the reason for this sudden change in requirements ? The system was working just fine for many many years, Now they want 400/800K baht in their banking system for what reason ??? What is your theory for the sudden change with little notice.

IMHO - People taking advantage of the current system has caused Immigration to clamp down.

Same with all of the other Clampdowns, a small number of people abuse the system and the majority of people who abide by the rules suffer.