dave s

6 hours ago, Max69xl said:

I find it hard to believe that Immigration can't initiate a person in the system even if he entered the country years back, and has a new passport. There must be many others who hasn't left the country for years,and they will never be able to use the TM30 app or website. 

The OP is about 90 day reporting. I do not know about the online stuff for TM30, because I rent a condo and the building office is all set up with the power to do that reporting on behalf of the landlord.

Updating your passport information for 90 day reporting apparently is now possible at an ordinary immigration office. There was past discussion about central immigration not telling some of their field offices that it became available, or how to do it, but there have been reports that it works OK when they do it right.

When immigration revived the 90 day reporting requirement, the foreign staff at the place I worked rebelled, and human resources wound up in the business of constantly transporting most of the foreigners back and forth to the local immigration office. On one of these sojourns I made a fuss about why the then new online system wouldn't let me use it. The answer H.R. finally got from Bangkok was that this is a feature, not a bug: IOs are police officers, and therefore cannot be trusted to make entries into the database. Take that as you will. The explanation I believe, that local offices by design cannot fix the missing data record problem, came from a participant named Pib, who is one of the victims who can't use the online system because he hasn't left then instantly re-entered Thailand since the online system was introduced.

6 hours ago, jchfriis said:

Dave, I'm listening. I never knew that you had to re-enter the country to get into the system. I thought you got into the system once you had reported in persona at the imm. office. So thank you for the clarification. And do I agree: "State of the art software design" 555. When it was introduced the only way to use it was through Microsoft Internet Explorer, a browser which was already outdated.

 

So my post was definitely wrong. Stupid? I'd call it ill-informed. Pointless, maybe, now that I know better. But insulting? I never meant to insult anyone, and I fail to see how anybody could feel that way.

There are development software packages that are advertised with "No brain needed! Just click blindly on some buttons, without understanding a thing!" This kind of thing is too common in Thailand. The Internet Explorer restriction is because the original web pages were written with a development package like this.

The problems with this code really upsets me. I have trouble getting around, some days I just cannot walk, Thailand will not give me a driver's license, and a taxi from my place to immigration at Saphan Hin can cost several thousand baht each way, because of the taxi mafia. If there was a serious issue, as there can be with computer security, I could understand, but there's no excuse for all the nonsense and incompetence, and it hurts me in particular. I am very sorry if I made you feel bad.

9 hours ago, Max69xl said:

My problem using the 90 days report app, is that I don't have a printer anymore. I am staying 10 baht away from Jomtien Immigration and same price to the nearest shop with a printer. They want 10 baht for a printout. ????

More serious is if you have the problem that for some people, the online system sends them a zero byte PDF file to print. State of the art software ..... for Thailand.

9 hours ago, EricTh said:

Why go there when you can do it online which saves time and money?

Because for too many people the online system just does not work, and then doesn't even tell you why. It has one error message for everything: "Oooooo, just run down to your local immigration office, whether that's a 5 minute walk, or a 6 hour drive." , But no one at the immigration office has access to look up the problem, either. State of the art software design ..... for Thailand.

On 10/3/2019 at 6:12 PM, hkt83100 said:

In my case this does not work. The problem is that I did not leave the country in the last 12 years, so the app or online service is complaining "Cannot find entry information". In addition, I got a new passport since the last entry, which makes it even more difficult for the local software "engineers" or database designers. ☹️

On 10/4/2019 at 5:03 PM, jchfriis said:

I see the problem. But once you have been to Imm. with your new passport and done the 90 day report, the online system should work for the subsequent reporting. I use the Firefox browser and that works well.

jchfriis is not listening. hkt83100 said his problem was the incompetence of the Thai system designer. There are two separate systems, the regular one and the one for 90 day reporting, and they do not talk to one another. When the 90 day reporting system was introduced several years ago, it started with an empty database: it knew for sure that there were no foreigners at all in Thailand at that point. No they did not reformat the existing data in the regular system and start the 90 day system off with the correct information, and no one has done this task ever since. And the 90 day reporting system can only enter a foreigner into its database at a border entry station, not at an immigration office, So this problem is DESIGNED IN, and UNFIXABLE BY DESIGN. The only way to get around it is for the foreigner to leave Thailand, step over the border, step right back in, and thus be entered into the 90 day system. How stupid is that?!?!!. Strangely, every time I told my employer that they had to pay for a wild, drunken orgy of a vacation to Penang BECAUSE OF THE INCOMPETENCE OF THE THAI GOVERNMENT, they said no.

In addition, hkt83100 has a second problem: a new passport. IF he paid for a senseless and wasteful trip out of the country so he got into the 90 day reporting system, then his local immigration office could tell the 90 day system about the new passport. There have been reports on TVF of foreigners being refused this service because the IO staff wasn't trained how to do it, didn't even know about it, or just didn't want to, but that it yet another problem in Thailand. At that point, if none of the other many reported bugs and problems with the 90 day system affect hkt83100, he could probably use the online system's web pages or cell phone app, saving himself lots of trouble. But just saying "Ooooooo, it worked for me, so there are absolutely no problems" is wrong, stupid, pointless, insulting ..... and very common in TVF.

11 hours ago, sanemax said:

So, he was talking about the dangers  incense sticks used in closed rooms at a festival, rather than pollution in general 

That seems to be exactly what the Thai text is saying. I can't find the picture I wanted: near the end of the festival, people in their white festival outfits cross a bridge inside the temple as a symbolic purification, which is the point of the festival. Everybody is packed inside the room, and you can hardly breathe. It doesn't seem unreasonable for a doctor to advise minimizing one's exposure to all the smoke.

The short Siam Rath article in Thai, run through Google Translate, produces the text quoted below. It specifically talks about the current Vegetarian Festival in Phuket City and its effect on the level of tiny, toxin dust particles. It makes no mention of anywhere except southern Thailand, in particular Indonesia is not mentioned. The translation by Rooster starts this discussion; you can compare it yourself to the tone and impact of Google's.

The values in the pictures posted were around a yellow, Moderate 55; it is currently 50, still showing Moderate on the Air Quality Index web site late late Sunday after a brief, very intense rainstorm cleared the air around my place.

If you have ever physically watched a street procession from a temple down to Saphan Hin, you might be vastly more concerned about the fireworks by-products than the incense: it is not uncommon to be unable to see the center of the street at all from the curb: the air is totally opaque. And don't wear good clothes; there are lots of burning cinders. But that only lasts a few minutes, and then you can flee back to the great food vendor areas.

Suggestion for eating vegetarian food, lighting short incense Reducing toxic dust "PM 2.5"

Concerned about many areas, the dust value is still high Please help reduce dust. Please cooperate with using small incense or short incense.

Dr. Panphimol Wipulakorn, Director-General of the Department of Health, revealed that many people in the southern region are still experiencing small dust particles, PM2.5, especially during this vegetarian festival. Thai people of Chinese descent will burn incense or pay homage to a shrine. Including paying respect to monks who have to burn a lot of incense Deputy Minister of Public Health (Dr. Satit Patu-Techa) passed on his concern by requesting cooperation for using small or shorter incense. To reduce dust The religious place, when the ceremony is finished, should put out or collect incense faster. And must be sure that it is completely closed Clean the incense burner regularly to reduce dust from the residual incense smoke. Avoid burning incense in an inconvenient ventilated place. Because if inhaled, it may irritate the eyes and affect the respiratory system. Common symptoms are dry eyes, burning eyes, tearing, sneezing, coughing, throat irritation, difficulty breathing, headache, fainting, unconsciousness if inhaled for a long time.

In this regard, people in the lower southern region must also closely monitor the situation of PM2.5 dust from the Facebook page "Health loving people pay attention to PM2.5 air" for at risk groups such as small children, pregnant women, the elderly People with chronic illnesses such as asthma, allergies, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease Heart and blood vessels Should avoid exposure to smoke and seek cooperation from hospitals Child Center Clean rooms should be arranged to prevent and reduce exposure to dust. PM2.5 for staff at work and people at risk or for doctors who advise

For people who need to go to areas with high dust values Should wear a mask Gag and nose To reduce health effects And keep an eye on the symptoms If there are abnormal symptoms such as frequent coughing, difficulty breathing, shortness of breath, shortness of breath, wheezing, congestion, palpitations, nausea and fatigue. Or dizziness, hurry to see a doctor

I have seen people say they have the wife check in to a hotel, so no TM30 is filed on the foreign husband, requiring another TM30 on return. So no report is filed when a Thai person stays in a hotel in another province. And there are no immigration stations on the roads at provincial borders, nor do people 0n domestic flights go through immigration at airports. So, how do they measure the number of internal, Thai tourists right now, and how much money they spend? And how will they reliably, accurately, honestly measure the increase in internal tourism produced by this stimulus package?

If you are retired, you might be able to ignore the clock and sleep when you are tired.

By the way, it's 12:01 AM in Thailand as I am typing. (Classical troll: many years ago, Honeyman posted "Does anyone know what time it is?" on Usenet News, and vast numbers of people around the world answered without thinking.)

On 8/24/2019 at 8:38 PM, BritManToo said:

The evidence would be on the immigration computer system under my name.

How hard could it be for them to check their computer?

On 8/24/2019 at 8:41 PM, BritManToo said:

It would have your name and address on it.

Which would allow them to look up your VISA status in their computer system.

30 second phone call should do it.

Nonsense. Passport, driver's license, pink ID, it no longer matters. This is terribly obsolete information. Immigration now has new "smart van" and "smart car" technology that automatically senses any violation by a foreigner, and drives itself straight to the criminal's location, without any actual effort by the police. Even better: the new "smart bicycle", "smart sofa" and "smart long-tail boat". And "biometrics" now catchs anyone who sneaks past the smart vehicles.

<a href="https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1113710-foreigners-beware-big-ouds-smart-van-is-coming-for-you/">Foreigners beware! Big Oud's "smart van" is coming for you! - Isaan News Forum - Thailand Visa Forum by Thai Visa | The Nation</a><br>

<a href="https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1117315-immigration-busy-keeping-thailand-safe-with-the-smart-car/?tab=comments#comment-14455011">Immigration busy keeping Thailand safe with the "Smart Car" - Southern Thailand News - Thailand Visa Forum by Thai Visa | The Nation</a><br>

15 minutes ago, kkpat said:

Did TM30 at Jomtien 2 weeks ago, queue for over 1 hour. Asked about user name and password as I had applied online end of May, told by boss upstairs that "not enough user names and passwords, only for hotel and guest house, not single user". Didn't see much point in arguing with that statement. So no it's not just fine.

Suppose that only letters and digits are allowed in a username, and that uppercase and lowercase are not distinguished. If usernames can only be 6 characters long, that is enough to give every man, woman and crying baby in Thailand two or three usernames. Clearly, that is not enough.

1            36
2         1,296
3        46,656
4     1,679,616
5     5,038,848
6   181,398,528

Suppose the owner of a condo is a foreigner, and he rents it to a tenant who is another foreigner. Does the foreign owner get a yellow book instead of a blue book, and would the tenant take that to immigration, maybe with the owner's passport or pink ID instead of a Thai citizen ID? What happens to the tenant's TM30 made by a Thai owner, if the Thai owner sells the condo to a foreigner in the middle of the lease? For that matter, is the new foreign owner bound by the existing lease?

2 hours ago, Vacuum said:

Lol. I got 39.41 baht in interest and they had withdrawn 5.91 baht in tax (Bangkok Bank)

You can't get your money back unless you have an account at one particular bank. Is this required new account totally free, or is it the typical 200 or 300 baht per year? Is an initial deposit required, of how much? Will an annual fee for the E-money card also be applied? And will this start to ring up transaction fees?

Back home, every bank was happy to take your money automatically. But here, an account was needed at only one particular bank, to get your paycheck direct deposited ... which didn't give accounts to foreigners, work permit or not.

1 hour ago, treetops said:

I would suggest "picnic" is the appropriate response. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_error

User error?!!?! That's the only possible explanation you can conceive of? This program totally sucks. But it has to be user error by the foreigner, it can't possibly be the fault of a Thai. That's why I called you an apologist, because you are that blind.

Quote

Here's a screenshot clearly showing the prompt for camera usage.

Wow, it lets you log in. And <deleted> everyone else, huh? God's in his heaven, all's well with the world.

Quote

And as before, just because you can't see a reason does not mean there isn't one.

I said I saw no apparent reason, and that was suspicious. Like, there are only a few small pieces of information, so why should it need to overflow memory. Maybe there is a reason, maybe not, maybe the author is just a bad programmer. But you didn't come up with any reason, either, and it's reasonable to err on the side of caution.

Quote

I took being called an "apologist for any and all Thai stupidity" as being derogatory so responded in kind.  Don't dish it out if you're too precious to accept it back.

Well, you're still being an apologist for this stupidity. I'm pissed off at the hassle this broken system has already caused me, and I get you prattling that user error is the only possibility. That is damn insulting.

Quote

In summary, there is nothing wrong and plenty right about this app asking for the permissions it does, despite the fact it has so many other flaws.  Your inability to see this does not make it wrong.

I saved the e-mail and password in another location when I first registered. Cutting and pasting those values directly into the app won't let me on. A password change request is refused (there appears to be no way to delete an existing account, which is yet another design flaw with this little turkey, so that can't be from user error). My inability to see anything right now is because this <deleted> turkey is broken. It had major problems literally for years when it first came out; they repeatedly totally turned it off for long periods, just look back through TVF. It happens over and over. People can't get registered in the TM30 system. The appointment system at the embassy in Laos was a disaster for weeks. And on and on. Then the apologists for Thai stupidity descend. We don't hear "they made a huge mess and should fix it"; we don't hear "they should take responsibility for the mess", we don't hear "the Thais responsible should be the ones fined or put in jail"; we hear "ooooo, it's their country and they can do any horrible thing they want and foreigners are terrible to complain and should just go home so the problem can never be fixed." And that is itself a major problem here.

It is sometimes possible to look around at some things inside an Android app. If you got the latest version of this code (not from the play store), you might find the word "Camera" near the word "Bar Code" in the machine code. The words "Passport", "Scan" and "MRZ" appear in another place. It still won't let me on, but I assume that the camera use is now valid. But I could not try it out before posting, and would not have complained about the camera permission if I had been able to check, because the system will not let me on, and that is just <deleted>.

I was never able to use the web site or app while working, because I had not left and re-entered Thailand since the online system was created: this caused lots of confusion for people when the system first came out, when some people could use it, but for some it mysteriously failed; when my employer accompanied me to the immigration office nobody had a clue as to what was going on. Slightly less than 30 days beforehand, in mid-January, I did the last paperwork for a retirement extension of stay dated mid-February. This counts as a 90 day report, but counting from mid-January. On the last day of March, I appeared to have submitted a 90 day report. I have screen shots of the "APPROVED", and that would come up on a search, but I could not get other than a zero byte PDF file to print out for my passport. In June I ran through the app again, and I have screen shots of the "PENDING" (you might think that a programmer might be interested in documentation of one of his bugs, but immigration refused to even look at anything I tried to show them). The next day everything from the second attempt had disappeared. When I went down to the office, I had to pay a bribe to make the problem magically disappear (they went kind of berserk when I just walked into the room upstairs, and I had to lean over the balcony outside and get my passport through the window in an alcove where no incriminating photos could be taken). I have a Thai friend who is an immigration officer elsewhere, and he tells me that there is now no record from January, March, June or July, but his screen claims a 90 day report was done in February. This whole system is just totally <deleted>.

I was poking around trying to get on again, because I am really curious about the camera usage, and the Google play store updates all my apps regularly. Immigration services still won't talk to me, but it turns out there is more than the one error message that says to go to your local immigration office. It can also say the following message (which is much more useful to a foreigner):

    เกิดข้อผิดพลาดจากระบบกรุราติดต่อผู้ดูแล

3 minutes ago, treetops said:

I don't deny it's a bit of a messy app, but you questioned the permissions.  When I run the app it offers me the opportunity to scan my passport (MRZ) for which it needs the camera.  Why would you not want that?

 

Tagging GPS location data onto a transmisssion is easy enough, and even if it's not checked on submission it may still be valuable.  Saying it does not hurt anything is presumptious and all it means is you can't think of a reason for it.  Others with a different perspective perhaps could.

 

 

I'm closer to the other extreme from being an apologist, but if I see nonsense in a post (yours in this case) I may be inclined to point it out.  Your point on being wary of permissions is valid, but in this case I think it's just your tin foil hat is too tight.

 

It has not offered me the opportunity to scan my passport with the camera. I would have checked before posting whether it now does so, but it is currently refusing to talk to me at all, and that is just <expletive deleted> broken. The best response from immigration has been to demand a fine and a bribe, because their <deleted> app doesn't work. And what I ear from you is that it works for you, so everything is OK.

Whether it is easy or hard to add GPS data to a transmission (or "transmisssion", as you so fondly call it: can't deal with a spell checker? or maybe "presumptious"), it is no use if it is never used. My point was, that this app has caused endless frustration for people by being zero help when something is wrong; go back and look through discussion after discussion. The author had time to write GPS code (for no earthly reason that you've suggested, but you need to apologize that maybe there is some reason), but no time at all to write a simple, meaningful error message about anything else. The default security case is that it is better to be suspicious than trusting. It looks odd that the app asks for certain permissions, and you've offered no suggestion of why it should be trusted.

"I see nonsense in a post (yours in this case)" "your tin foil hat is too tight" So it's acceptable to insult people you disagree with, rather that address the concerns? OK, how about "treetops has an ugly sister", or "his mother wears army boots"? At least for some people, in some circumstances, this system is just plain broken. It has been for years. And immigration does not care. And you saying maybe there's a reason for it (without suggesting anything) doesn't fix the problems.

4 minutes ago, treetops said:

The camera can be used  to scan the Machine Readable Zone of your passport rather than typing in the details.

But nothing in the user interface offers to use the camera to save any typing. If and when they ever added such a feature, the new version of the app could ask for permission at that time, or the next time you launched it.

4 minutes ago, treetops said:

I don't know about the others, but it may make temporary files as you step through the process and need to store them, thus needing access to memory.

 

  Location - inside Thailand would be logical, as any reason to report when you're not inside Thailand would be highly dubious.

 

Why do you think it doesn't need these permissions?

It's not asking for access to internal storage on the phone, it wants access to permanent storage on the SD card, if you have one installed in your phone (my phone allows installing a second SIM instead). There's not enough information involved here to overflow memory on the motherboard.

This app has only one "error message": something went wrong so run down to your immigration office and do it by hand. No matter how far away that is, no matter how inconvenient that is, which defeats the whole purpose of online registration. If you knew what the problem was, maybe you could fix what was wrong and then successfully register online. But the app is no help at all. Even going to the immigration office may not help: when the system was first introduced, they had no clue that you had to leave Thailand and then step right back in (because this database does not talk to the rest of immigration, and police officers cannot be trusted to enter information into a computer; how stupid is that?!?) in order to use the system at all. So, you expect us to believe that the author, who could not be bothered to add a few lines of meaningful error message for the utility of many customers forever after, would set up the Android GPS modules and verify that the user was actually inside Thailand? It is not required to make a 90 day report if you are not inside Thailand, but it does not hurt anything -- there are serious problems with the design and operation of this turkey that do hurt, and do need fixing.

There are lots of security articles on the net that warn you to be suspicious of the permissions that apps ask for. And reports of apps "abusing the system", as you apologists for any and all Thai stupidity like to rattle on about, to grab permissions that they should not have. The New York Times is running a special series right now about this sort of thing. Why do you think it is OK to pass out permissions that have no apparent justification, especially to an organization as corrupt as Thai immigration?

1 hour ago, Pib said:

Assuming you are taking this Google Play Thailand Immigration app, I see it gets a 1.2 out of 5 rating....looks like almost everyone says it sucks...can't get it to work.

Aside from design and functionality, it's buggy. But don't worry, if it sometimes sends you a zero byte PDF file to print and staple into your passport, the IO will refuse to look at any evidence you try to show, but be happy to fine you for not having it (no receipt, of course) next time you visit the office. And if a search tells you "pending" right after you make a request, but all record of that vanishes the next day, and the web site then locks up on you, you can just pay a bribe to Someone Important Upstairs to magically make all problems go away.
 

1 hour ago, treetops said:

This should save you the 30 seconds it takes to look it up.

.

And why on earth does it need these permissions?

A 90 day report requires no photographs, and nothing in the user interface offers to take any pictures.

Why does it need either the current course or fine location? Can I do a report while standing in Phitsanulak, but not from Chiang Mai? How stupid is that?

Why does it need to read or modify file storage? Most of the information involved hardly ever changes, so once you figure out the right voodoo to get your request accepted, it would be nice to save all the crap on disk for the next annoying 90 report, if nothing else but to prevent typos while re-entering data. But is there such a useful feature? No way.

"except for the birth date, which doesn't allow manual input nor scrolling through years, so you have to manually click back through every month of every year until you reach your birth year"

No, there is a trick to this user interface with its winning 1.2 user rating. But the Thai idiot who "designed" it has cleverly disguised that shortcut, whereby if you were born in say, 1950, you only have to click about 75 times rather than more than 820.

Before making the posting above, I tried, unsuccessfully, to locate a neat set of rules for Thai nationals and for foreigners. I remember such a pair of lists, but it may have been on one of the forms I was filling out that got yanked away from me and chucked when the respective bank went into "no no no no no cannot" mode. Down near the bottom of this link are pairs of acceptable reason and the paperwork necessary to attach if you claim that reason:

    https://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/what-is-the-best-way-to-transfer-funds-from-thailand-t21757.html

This link:

    https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Digital-Banking/Bualuang-iBanking

has a kind of vague list for Thai nationals, and only one acceptable reason for foreigners (that is of course not true).  This discussion in ThaiVisa is the best I found this time around, especially the remarks by the member named "chiang mai":

What he says corresponds well to my experiences running around trying to send money back home. Response #2 there is the only reference I could find to the 80% rule: neither the human resources staff nor those who took care of paperwork for the international employees at the place I worked had ever heard of any restrictions at all on moving money around. It is a fact of life around here that every tin-horn "authority" interprets rules (when they even exist) their own way, or makes them up. So again I would advise that you shop around as much as possible, and hopefully you will randomly happen upon a bank, a branch office, a manager, a clerk, a personal mood, a phase of the moon, that will allow you to do the reasonable task you're looking for. As always, TIT. ????

The Bank of Thailand has a short list of reasons for which foreigners may send money out of Thailand, such as repatriation of funds (sending back money you can verify that you earlier brought into Thailand) or sending money you earned here to your home country. There is a different short list of acceptable reasons for Thai citizens, such as paying for education expenses in a foreign country, or paying medical expenses of a close family member. You have to convince your bank that you have a good reason, and then they must file papers to convince Bank of Thailand. If you are paying a bill, you have to document this by attaching the invoice for the charge. There can be many other restrictions. For example, it at least used to be that you could send no more than 80% of your Thai salary home in no more than 10 of the 12 months of the year, and you had to do that at the time you earned it, and there is still a fixation on work permits, tax records and similar documentation. As with all things in Thailand, the rules may be indefinitely hazy in Thai language, may be badly translated into English, and of course are subject to (mis)interpretation all along the line, just like at immigration.  Go to the biggest bank branch in the biggest city you can, to minimize your chance of being spuriously denied by a bank clerk or even bank manager who has no idea what you're asking, but must "save face" at all costs. Be prepared for every person you talk to at every branch of every bank telling you a different story, sometimes differently on different days. So every person who tries to send money home may well have a different experience. Some banks are much more picky about "covering their a**" than others: in my experience, for example, one particular bank was vastly more likely to give a huge hassle about a work permit than another, so shop around. You're supposed to turn in your work permit the instant you quit, but that may strand your funds in Thailand. Buy a waterproof, fireproof safe, because when the roof collapses in your company apartment and destroys your bankbook, your bank may deny that it is possible to provide statements older than 12 months, and so you cannot document that money was brought into Thailand in the first place. Talk to your Thai friends, especially students who have gone abroad: they will suggest many elaborate ways to smuggle cash out of Thailand.

Bangkok Bank form for outbound SWIFT transfer (note particularly item 70): https://www.bangkokbank.com/-/media/files/personal/other-services/transfers/outwardremittance_app_feb2019.pdf?la=en&hash=876272C518D06C925D4B7E1E322B3FB9B8626971

Another recent discussion on ThaiVisa with more information: