RayC

See my comment from +/-21 hours ago. Imo that explains my mentalism clearly. If you disagree, please point out any ambiguity as I will try to correct it in the future.

(At least) two of us interpreted your post differently to what you intended. Whose fault is that? Us for being stupid or you for being ambiguous? Debatable (but let's not please).

The suspected serial killer is an 'undocumented' Cameroonian and my initial comment was in response to the following, ".. detain the illegal, bring him to airport prison cell and deport, and if they resist, transport in a dog style cage in cargo ...". JohnnyF's reply to me specifically mentioned" ... those entering the country illegally ...", so it's no surprise that some of us thought that you were referring to illegal migrants in particular, and not the population as a whole.

What are you suggesting? Each and every illegal migrant is capable of that sort of behaviour? Only illegal migrants commit those types of atrocities?

The same land of 'milk and honey' which you disparage on an almost daily basis as a crime ridden cesspit. Makes you wonder anyone would want to come to the UK voluntarily, let alone risk their life to reach it.

You apparently haven't noticed that there is a fundamental difference - in the UK at least - between a prison cell and a freight crate which transports livestock. Your humanity shines through.

This most pertinent but inconvenient of FACTS is never acknowledged by Putin's apologists.

What happened to your overriding concern for the poor widows and orphans of Ukraine? Showing your true colours by gloating.

The argument you employed to reject a premise is now the very same argument you use to support your preferred premise. I'll give you credit for realising your logical inconsistencies, but unfortunately shouting, "Strawman" on the occasions when this arises doesn't hide that inconsistency. As I pointed out, the referendum was over 8 years, and we formally left the EU 5 years ago. Of the major industrialised countries, to date we have signed new trade deals with Australia and NZ and an enhanced deal with Japan, none of whom are among our leading trading partners. You consider that 'plenty'? What may or may not have happened in Southport, or what may or may not happen to Starmer is tangential to this topic. The bottom line is the terms of any trade deal which the UK enters into with the US will be dictated by the US. How close that brings the UK to becoming the 51st state is the US's perogative.

Nice - but failed - attempt to twist my words. The timing of the cut in NI contributions was an election bribe. Nothing more, nothing less. What happened to your concerns about affordability? If the government can't afford to spend money on services, then it can't afford a cut in revenue. That may happen in time but at the moment 'No, it isn't', and and 'No, it's not'. Although I'll admit to disappointment at the start which Labour has made, unlike you I will let a reasonable amount of time elapse before I pass final judgement on it. Another reason for hoping that Labour can 'come good' is that the alternatives don't bear thinking about. Under Badenoch or Farage, we wouldn't just be a physical island. Being less reliant on imported energy seems like a sensible strategic objective. However, why would that preclude also adopting strategies which are more environmentally friendly?

Right. That'll be because - just like the EU - the US needs us more than we need them😂 Kier just needs to draw up a trade agreement and point out where Don needs to sign and that's it: Job done. The UK will continue to trade with the rest of the world without any interference from Washington. It's a mystery why the previous Tory administrations were unable to implement many trade deals. All the misplaced criticisms you levied about the EU imposing laws - laws which the UK were instrumental in formulating - might well come to pass if the UK enters into a trade deal with the US at the same time as the latter is imposing tariffs elsewhere.

Firstly, the EU does not have any legal jurisdiction in Africa (apart a couple of enclaves which Spain still has in what is Morocco) so there are practical problems .... ... secondly, there is something which can be called 'basic humanity'. Most of us find the idea of transporting dogs in cages distasteful - unless it is absolutely necessary - let alone humans.

I thought one of the major reasons for leaving the EU was this imo misplaced idea that the UK could become sovereign (in its' own right) i.e. being able to make our own laws and set our own agenda without worrying about what anyone else thought or did? Mr. Moore and you seem to be in favour of simply exchanging Brussels for Washington. Where's the sovereignty in that?

1. Foreign Aid: We discussed this issue in detail in another thread. Clearly I didn't convince you to change your opinion. I haven't changed mine. There is little point rehashing the same argument. Suffice to say, I think that the foreign aid budget is affordable. 2. Public sector pensions: If these are now unaffordable, then the fault lies with the actuaries and/or previous governments and not the current administration. If pension rights are amended for the worse then we risk losing doctors, nurses, teachers, etc. 3. Net zero: Can we afford to do nothing? 4. Labour government: Labour has been in power for < 6 months and their first budget is less than a month old (!!), so it is far too early to tell what effect Labour's policies will have on the economy: I'm not sure whether you fall into this category, but I find it laughable that some posters who already claim that this Labour government is an economic disaster, also suggest that it is too early to pass judgement on Brexit 8 years after the referendum and nearly 5 years after we formally left the bloc. 5. NHS: I agree that the NHS needs reforming. We are having yet another review. I'm skeptical whether this review will have any more success in improving matters than previous ones. At least collectively, those in authority in the NHS now refrain from suggesting that the NHS is the 'envy of the world'. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case for decades. 6. Debt: The UK national debt at the end of the 23/24 tax year was 97.8% of GDP. It is forecast to reduce to 97% by the end of 25/26. High by traditional standards, but unaffordable? Not unless there is a marked decrease in government revenue and/or an upward movement in interest rates. 7a: Illegal immigrants: Agreed. The government should do all that it can to stop their arrival. 7b: Low skilled legal immigration: Yet another Brexit 'benefit'. Under EU freedom of movement, cyclical and seasonal jobs e.g. those in the agricultural and hospitality sector were often filled by transient workers from the EU. In effect, the market naturally found its' equilibrium. Post-Brexit the number of transient workers from the EU reduced significantly leading to a shortage of labour. This has been 'solved' by importing labour from further afield. To change this situation, native-born workers will need to fill these posts. The previous Tory governments failed to convince these individuals to do so. By all means, let working people keep more of their money, however, Hunt's 2% cut in NI contributions cost the Exchequer £10bn. Anything but 'peanuts'. There was no economic justification for this cut in rates at the time. It was nothing but an attempt at bribery which ultimately proved to be unsuccessful. Labour was dishonest with its' election promises and has been very 'economical with the truth' since taking office. However, in 4 or 5 years time, it will be judged on the success of its' policies. It is far too soon to declare it a one-term government.

Despite Trump's thin skin, I doubt that Lammy's ill-judged comments will have much effect wrt the US's attitude to the UK. The UK is unimportant to the US, even more so since the foolhardy decision to leave the EU. I think that Labour handled the PR side of things appallingly during the election campaign and the mismanagement of the PR side of things has, if anything, got worse since it was elected: Tax rises were always going to be inevitable. Labour should have been upfront about it and called out the Tories for their actions and promises. For example, I would have preferred Labour to have reversed the unaffordable 2% cut in employee NI contributions which Hunt made prior to the election - what a coincidence, eh? - rather than increase employer NI contributions as they have done. It remains to be seen what state the UK economy will be in 4-years time.