Sunmaster

19 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Sunmaster just received a broadside hit in our game of "Battleships."  He's taking on water, folks!]

Meanwhile Sunmaster...

9 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

Why did you write that?  I can think of several possible ideas behind it.  The one that strikes me as most plausible is that you don't have any answers.  And so to not have to admit it then the best response is to protest about the sheer number of questions and use the unreasonable 'burden' of that as the reason for then refusing to answer any of them.  Another possible explanation is that you're tired of my endless questions. 

I believe I answered this in second to last post. 
"You want me to sit around the kitchen table, manuals wide open, and discuss the differences of our manuals. Sorry, but I rather take Basil for a spin and drive into the sunset. "
Like I said, I'm not qualified to be Advaita's advocate, nor would I want to. This is not about the maps we use, but how we use the maps we use. Being so adamant (and a bit pedantic ) about the contents of the maps just shows the degree of attachment to it. 

I used to be just the same, I know the thought processes that go with that behaviour. You can easily scroll back to the beginning of this thread and see how fierce I was in defending my map, listing sources, quotes, trying to make others "see the light" in a number of different ways.

The truth is, none of that matters. 

All that matters is your personal relationship to AllThatIs. 
Not the map, but the territory matters.
Not the engine manual matters, but driving the car.
 

The more time you keep studying your manual, the less time you have driving that nice car that sits in your garage, covered by a 2" layer of dust. 



 

6 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

What do you mean by "meditate deeper?"  Are you implying that there are levels of meditation?  If there are then how would each deeper level be recognised?  Would each level offer something different, perhaps in terms of insight?

 

I've been meaning to ask and now might seem to be a good time to segue into the question.  What do you experience during meditation?  Granted I may be asking for you to put into words something which there may be no words for.  But I would imagine that coming back from meditation you would be bringing something back which is useful in terms of Sunmaster's reality.  Insight, perhaps?  And if insights then insights on what in particular?  How would those insights then be useful to Sunmaster's life, if indeed there was any practical use to those insights?

This I can answer, because it relates to my experience. 
By meditate deeper I mean becoming more and more centered, when it's easy to be in the moment, just being the observer, not attached to anything, stillness, silence and feeling Grace and Wonder at the love flowing. The more you give up of yourself and offer it without resistence, the more the Ur-condition of eternal bliss reveals itself. You are that.

Such peak experiences are rare and even if you do all the necessary steps perfectly (fasting, right morals, meditating, praying etc), there is no guarantee. What we can do however, is do our best and practice. Lay a fertile ground so to speak, on which Grace may or may not (yet) bless you with it.
I guess you could call that "levels of awareness".

"How would be deeper levels recognised?"
Recognized by whom?

"But I would imagine that coming back from meditation you would be bringing something back which is useful in terms of Sunmaster's reality.  Insight, perhaps?"
There are various ways to be "in a meditative" state. You can sit in the typical lotus position, you can chant a mantra while you drive your car, you can create art, you can wash the dishes. I found that a certain ritual, involving sitting in meditation is the most efficient, simply because the ability to find the center is greatly helped by a certain setting. A nice cozy little meditation place, your pillow, the rising sun, the first birds chirping away, a fresh mind, an open heart...all that helps. But this takes effort for most of us, at least in the beginning. At first the thought monkeys will play crazy, poking you, stimulation you, stealing your attention away. Day after day though, their monkeying around becomes less frequent. Your thought-less attention becomes stronger with practice. Soon enough it becomes like the morning stretch of your muscles. You do it because it makes you feel good. And then, that feeling that you cultivate during your meditations starts to grow, filling the cup of your being more and more, until it reaches the brim, overflows, and spills out into the ordinary life of everyday activities. This is the ideal.

"And if insights then insights on what in particular?  How would those insights then be useful to Sunmaster's life, if indeed there was any practical use to those insights?"
Maybe we can define insights as "instantaneously recognized truths", and I would argue that there is nothing more practical than that.

6 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

 

All that we do in life is trying to overcome suffering and to attain fulfillment.  Lasting peace, happiness, security.  The way to do that is to realize who you are.  That's the big claim.

 

It's a perspective for sure.  But it's not a complete explanation of what we're doing here in this world and our reason for coming by any means.  No doubt we all try to avoid suffering.  That is true.  And yes, we all try to fulfill ourselves.  That is true as well.

 

But as I've asked before, to which you've yet to answer, who creates the suffering?  Further questions would be:  What is the purpose of suffering?  Why does suffering exist?  How is suffering created?  How is suffering alleviated?  Etc.

 

The same goes for 'seeking fulfillment'.  What is meant by fulfillment?  What avenues exist for fulfillment?  Are there various ways of fulfillment?  Is there only one 'ultimate' fulfillment?  Etc.

 

Sorry to ask all of these questions but they are the questions which naturally beg from Swami Sarvapriyananda's statements.  One can disregard the questions and simply accept Swami Sarvapriyananda's claims but that is not my style.  I question and I question everything.

 

 

Now I wasn't born yesterday, Sunmaster.    The concept of overcoming suffering and attaining fulfillment is a tenet of many Hindu schools of thought which I've been aware of for decades.  Seth discusses this as well.  I didn't come across it for the first time by skimming a few videos.  Rather than chide me for my poor understanding you would do well to explain it in detail and in full.  Answering some of my questions above would be a good start.  But you must admit that the single statement, "All that we do in life is trying to overcome suffering and to attain fulfillment," is not ambiguous.  It's quite clear in it's meaning.  The conclusion drawn that "that's it" is only a logical conclusion that must follow the logic of the statement.  No other explanation for 'why' is given, after all.  Nor is there any mention of anything more to life.

 

 

Two world views colliding is like two worlds colliding.  Lots of explosions.  Perhaps rather than two worlds colliding violently we may come to see two worlds merging. 

I hope you don't expect me to answer all those questions. 😅

I thought about this post while driving from Korat back home. Almost 4 hours of thinking. In order not to forget, I had to write my points in messages to myself while waiting at red lights, getting gas or stopping for a leak. So forgive me if the end result is a bit disconnected. I also have to warn you....my German side is fond of directness and has very little patience for empty diplomacy. It can be easily perceived as rude or aggressive, but remember, it's not personal. 

I never said that AV is better than other maps or that Swamiji (or AV) has all the answers. I respect him greatly, because when I hear him talk, I recognize that he is not just talking from intellectual knowledge of the map, but he has walked/is walking the territory. When he talks about those beautiful mountain roads, I know he's been there because I remember them too.

So, one thing I want to make abundantly clear is that I neither have the knowledge nor the interest in promoting or defending Advaita Vedanta (or any other philosophy/map). Not that AV would need defending from an amateur like me, of course. Like I said in a previous post, AV is simply a map and should not be confused with the territory. AV focuses on self-inquiry and direct experience and as a practical tool to navigate the territory, I've yet to find a better one.
 

My intention is not to chide you or your worldview, but merely give you a little taste of the medicine you so freely prescribe to others, which is to question your own map and ask yourself whether your map is more important than the territory it describes. 

You mention the analogy of the engine manual. OK, I can roll with that. Yes, you're right that it's important to use the best manual you can find and that once you found it, there is little point in reading other, less detailed manuals. By doing so, you gain a solid base on the functioning of the engine, which is important. As an engineer this surely appeals to you greatly....the rationality and logic behind all those parts working together to produce a complete, efficient engine. Brilliant. When there is a fault, simply consult the manual and do a straightforward fault finding. It's all laid out perfectly before your eyes...A leads to B, which turns C, which produces D...easy peasy.

However, does the manual teach you how to drive that car? 

You'll say yes, my manual has 10 whole chapters about driving! 
I keep asking you, how does it feel to drive on a beautiful mountain road in autumn just before sunset?
You'll say, ahh my manual talks about this exact thing in chapter 4, section 8, paragraph 5 in great detail. It's beautiful.
OK, but how does it feel? Have you actually experienced it?
Well no, but I know everything there is to know because I studied the manual for many years. The manual says it's beautiful so I'm sure it's great.
Right...

Your manual may have the better electrical diagrams while the one I use focuses more on valve adjustment. If I ever have a burnt-out light, I will certainly use yours to solve the problem, and if you like you can borrow mine when your engine sputters. No problem.
You may have the prettiest manual, with the latest updates and laminated pages so you can spill your coffee without worries, but still, when it comes to driving the car, there is nothing compared to the actual experience of driving the damn thing.

Even though, for the sake of intellectual honesty, you generously concede that there is a small chance that your manual might be wrong or incomplete, I have a hard time believing you. Deep down you think your manual is spot on on everything, because if one slim part of it is not, that would mean that all other parts could be off the mark too. Where would it end? It's either all or nothing. If there are parts in other manuals that don't seem to fit with yours, that obviously means that those manuals contain distorted information. Hmmmm....There is not much difference in this attitude compared to someone who uses the bible as a manual. They too confuse the map with the territory. 

You see, this one card trumps all other cards. No matter how good or detailed a manual is, it's no substitute for the actual driving experience. It is only by driving that you become a better and more experienced driver. And then there comes a point when you will have no need for a manual at all. Holding on to the manual will actually slow you down.

You want me to sit around the kitchen table, manuals wide open, and discuss the differences of our manuals. Sorry, but I rather take Basil for a spin and drive into the sunset.

Again, sorry if this post is not the most coherent and doesn't have a flowing prose. I was driving the car. (pun intended). 

16 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

In my opinion Spiral Dynamics is a system of thought which attempts to explain why life works the way it does.  There are an endless number of systems of thought which attempt to do this, all to the end of providing explanations as to what makes reality function as it does.  I have my answer which explains it all in excruciating detail.  The simple answer is you create your reality in every aspect and down to every nuance using subjective ideas which are translated into an objective medium which you then experience and interact with.  How that works in all instances is the excruciating detail.

 

I could investigate and analyze every system of thought out there in an attempt to see where each system of thought might be correct and where it is amiss.  To what end, though?  And if there is no worthy end then I'd only be wasting my time.  Of course there would be an end to doing so if I didn't already have answers.

When I paint, I use a number of different brushes and techniques. I could paint with one brush alone and in a single style, but the result would not be the same. It would be quite boring and would not give me the desired result. 

You "think" you have the answers, but your misunderstanding of Vedanta tells me something else. 

I'll retire into my bomb shelter for the next few days, just to be on the save side. 😅😬

25 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

You missed commenting on this excerpt.

 

I highlighted what Swami Sarvapriyananda claims as the purpose of life in bold text.  Is that it?  And yes, it is as he says . . . "That's the big claim."  And it is nothing more than a claim, indeed.    For the rationale behind the claim is, the ideas which support the claim are, entirely missing.  Far be it from me to take that claim as "true" on simple pure faith that it is "true."  I like to examine ideas as to their validity before I decide to accept them.

What? That we try to avoid pain and seek fulfillment? Isn't that obvious in everything we do? 

And you came to that conclusion after skimming through a couple of videos? 

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

 

Have you thought of making wedding cakes for those western people that want to have a ceremony in Thailand. You'd mint it if you could get into that market.

Actually, we did that for a few years (mainly for Thais) over 10 years ago. I was teaching at that time plus starting my own business. 2-3 weekends a month, we would load the pickup with all kinds of wedding decorations and cakes and drive around Thailand, set up everything, wait for the ceremony to end and then dismantle again. It was hard work. We were doing quite well, but then stopped when my biz took off. 

3 hours ago, Tippaporn said:

So where did your ice cream bars come in? 

Just did a few workshops to pass the time.

Today I made flowers in jelly. Surprisingly easy.

My personal baking girl got the first prize! ❤️❤️❤️

8 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

bad news, sunmaster.

you got competition.

Robert Sapolsky is working hard these days preaching his "No God, No Free Will, Life is Pointless" message.

Here he is on another channell with 4 million subscribers preachin' it for 2 hours.

And I thought your posts were long-winded.

Good luck. You're gonna need it.

 

 

My posts are longwinded? I think you're confusing me with someone else. 😄

52 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

Tippaporn:  2

Sunmaster:  1

 

I have the sneaking suspicion that you may not be the most impartial judge when keeping score. I could be wrong though...

13 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

~

Thanks Sunmaster for that clear and very recognizable rendering of the standard condition of everybody.

And when people are honest with themselves they will see the truth that indeed you are more or less on autopilot until you have your coffee. 

But it's that last part "until you have your coffee" that I want to challenge here. I would make the argument that this 'autopilot' condition is how +99.99 % of people live their life (including myself).  Everybody thinks that during their normal waking life, that they are 'not asleep' and have 'free will' but nothing could be further from the truth.  In reality we are just automatons and completely pre-conditioned in all our responses and actions during the day.  Yes, you can have meetings and discussions with other people, write letters, give presentations, meditate and do physical research work, and all this while you are still 'asleep'. Asleep is probably the best term to describe that condition, because it is only when you have EXPERIENCED that there is a far more encompassing level of consciousness that you will be able to appreciate the difference. Of course many when reading these words will argue that they are not asleep but wide awake. They do realize that in their present condition there are moments that they seem more aware than at other times, but they are mistaking that peak level of daily awareness with being really 'awake'. And it is very hard for most people to even consider the possibility that you are a robot driven by the whims of his Ego, but a robot nevertheless, if you have never personally experienced a different state of consciousness. 

 

Now some more personal comments.

I fully agree with Sunmaster that meditation can be a path to gradually explore that other reality. But a word of caution is necessary here as even when meditating you are not necessarily in that other state of consciousness. True, while meditating you should be less distracted by the constant dialogue of your Ego, but there is still a World of Difference between that heightened level of consciousness during meditation and actually experiencing being awake.  The best way to describe it is that in moments of being really awake that you experience a sort of 'enlightenment'.  And when you succeed in making that state permanent you will be enlightened. Having personally experienced a glimpse of such enlightenment, I can say that it is indeed a life-changing event even if it was just some 10 minutes, in which the world bathed in a golden light and I KNEW that everything in the world is perfect and exactly the way it is meant to be. And after that realization I did go to sleep (it was during the middle of the night).  And when waking up in the morning, I had fallen back into my automaton-ways but the memory of that experience is still as vivid now as +40 years ago. 

 

And even though I agree that meditation can be a path to gradually explore that other reality, personally I NEVER meditate, or at least not in the 'sitting silent and letting all thoughts go' way.  But after long lapses (often days or sometimes even weeks) of living my life asleep, I try 'self-remembering' to awaken and revive what I would call more real  consciousness.  That technique was advocated by Gurdjieff and it has the advantage that it can be done anytime and everywhere.  And it is deceptively simply as it basically consists of inwardly 'looking' from an eagle's perspective at what you are doing/ thinking.  When doing that I am instantly reminded of having been deep asleep in everything I did in between.  Of course my Ego resents being exposed, and so I am not able to upkeep that 'self-remembering' for more than 5-10 minutes, and then I slip back into my normal automaton ways of living my life...

 

So far this Sunday sermon...

 

Yes, yes, yesss!

You don't post often, but when you do, you hit the nail right on the head! Love it.

Anything that helps lessen the grasp of the ego is worth pursuing. 

I too had such a short glimpse of what it means being truly awake,  that's why I often use the dream analogy. I spent 3 decades studying, but I finally came to the conclusion that nothing works like direct experience. Meditation is for me, a great tool to circle back to that state. Art helps as well. Walking alone in a forest or on a mountain is great too. Watching yourself from an eagle's perspective is also a great way. Whatever works is good. 

Another thing I realised recently. I always assumed that finding the silence behind the thoughts would automatically reveal pure awareness, but it turns out that this silence is just another stepping stone. There's a lot more to it than just quieting the mind. The silence of the mind just gives you the best working conditions for the next step.

29 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

But no less real.  Just as dreams are real. 

 

Tippaporn:  1

Sunmaster:  0

 

     

 

Me and you have to get on the pitch to settle this once and for all, Sunmaster.  Or maybe a game of horseshoes.  Great beer drinking game. 

The dream is only real in relative terms. When you are in the dream and believe it to be real, it will appear real to you and you won't question any impossibilities or incongruous elements in it. Then, when you wake up, you realize that the waking state is "more real", simply because more of your awareness is now shining its light upon this waking environment, which is consciousness itself.

Transposing this to the ultimate reality, you see that this makes sense. Awakening to your true nature allows consciousness to self-reflect by an even greater amount of awareness, thus making it even more real than our waking state.

Sure, this everyday reality we're living in feels real enough and it too is made of consciousness manifested. But to call it the same as absolute reality would be a mistake.

Laurence Fishburn docet. 

4 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

You forgot to give me your address.  Being European I'd think you'd be more discriminating about what kind of bread you eat for breakfast. 

 

Just a quick story.  When we first emigrated to the U.S. the first time my mother went to a grocery store to pick up some bread and came to realise that all that was available at that time (mid-50s) was the mass produced sliced white bread she cried.  Any European would understand that and cry, too. 

My wife makes sourdough bread too, so I'm covered. 💪

12 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

 

Just taking care of the odds and ends first. 

 

My reading of that scene was that world which was the truth of the matrix sucked and he'd rather eat a fictitious steak than the slop in the real world, even whilst knowing the steak was not real.

 

Exactly, meaning this reality is a dream. Or in vedantic terms, relative reality as opposed to absolute reality. 

29 minutes ago, Tippaporn said:

As illustrated in the movie series, The Matrix, the character Cypher would rather return to the matrix than know the truth of the matrix.  So it is for most.  I ain't gonna change that. 

Funny, because I always interpreted that scene as choosing to stay as the body-mind personality instead of transcending the ego and awaken to the true Self, with the red pill being a symbol for introspective practice. 

But this interpretation would be at odds with your belief, since you don't believe in transcending the ego. Right?

Now look what I have to do...chasing you down in this sandbox thread...the ts ts.

17 hours ago, NanLaew said:

It's always a Damien isn't it?

 

Or a Darren.

And Ian...lots of dumb Ians. 😄

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

My mind never stops talking to me. I tried to meditate once but it just wouldn't shut up.

That's the standard condition of everybody. The inner dialogue is how we make sense of the world around us. We lable all the objects and experiences, put them in neat categories of "good - give me some more" and "bad - avoid at all cost".

Thoughts jump around like monkeys, distracting us, stealing away our attention in an endless merry-go-round. 

You wake up, the mind starts slowly like a steam train. Your first thoughts are "what time is it?", or "that was a weird dream". You are more or less on autopilot until you have your coffee. Your mind however is already in full swing  and hasn't shut up since that first thought. And so it goes the whole day.

And for most of us, we believe that this constant stream of more or less useless thoughts is who we are and that it is our normal, unavoidable nature to be this way.

But that's the opposite of true. It's completely false and everybody can verify this on his own. No books needed, no guru, no funny hat or white coat people. 

All it takes is the first step and then the second step, and the third and...Well, you get the idea.

It will take some time and some effort, sure, but before long you will notice subtle changes in you. 

The first realisation is that you and that thought stream are not the same. "You" are the observer of that stream. It creates a space between the 2 and in time it becomes more and more difficult for the monkey to run away with your attention. 

Of course this is only the beginning, but this step will already give you unimaginable benefits in your life. And it's free!

Don't give up, it's worth it. 💪💪💪

25 minutes ago, Chris Daley said:

Still not sure about this God thing.  Why does God steal candy from babies?

 

My girlfriend was making some ice cream for her family's little girls.  The blender was broken.  Not sure why God broke it but okay we went out and bought a new one.  After a hard days work we went to Tesco and bought a blender for 900 baht.  I boasted about how it was a British brand so it must be good.  When we got home the spoon was missing from the box and the speed settings are fake.  It shows 4 speed settings but it just jumps from off to on.  Some freak actually painted on lines that look like speed settings.  Well that's the first time I have seen a blender without basic 3 speeds on it.  So the blade and design is very shallow.  It just spins at the bottom and the mix doesn't mix.

 

Hope you're happy god.

Thanks for this riveting story. At least now I know why you don't get it.

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

a fulfillment that is not dependent on anything external

Indeed. I have some interesting conversations with myself, but I doubt they lead to fulfillment. I have never till this day had a conversation with God. That is yet to come

The fulfillment I'm talking about is not having conversations with yourself though. That's just the mind entertaining itself. When the thoughts subside and the light beneath them gains strength, that's where the fulfillment comes from. That's the "conversation" to look out for and it's beyond words and thoughts. 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I get the eggs and bread, but what is the stuff looks like mince, and the round brown things ( perhaps sliced sausage )?

What? You never had Moo Gratá when in Thailand? 

25 minutes ago, fusion58 said:

 

He didn’t explain anything.

 

In fact, he denied right from the outset that the burden to prove the existence of a god or a supernatural realm was his - even though he was the one making the claim.

 

You should be asking yourself why you’re casting your lot with such an intellectually dishonest person.

 

 

Clearly it all went over your head. 

20 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

how many god threads will it take?

(n+1)²

@Tippaporn
Whatchadoin here? Breakfast is waiting in the other thread...

Come on @Tippaporn Don't waste your precious time on the other thread. Come here, have a nice Thai breakfast and get your fingers dancing.