dsfbrit
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Posts posted by dsfbrit
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only the first 30 years is registered...........the lease contract might state that the lessee has an option to renew for another 30 years or even state that the option is exercised with full advance payment now, but nevertheless, the second 30 year lease needs to be registered in future... if something happens (death, liquidation etc) to the original lessor (during the first 30 years) the contractual option to renew is gone... (BUT it might just be possible to mortgage the land in favor of the lessee to secure lessee's rights)....
besides the legal issues, I've seen leaseholds for sale (on Rajadamri Road) but it seem as the remaining lease term approaches 15 years or so, the re-sale prices drop dramatically...
Upon death or liquidation of the lessor, the lessor through his estate executor or the company's liquidator still has the legal obligation of granting the rights to the lessees.
I am one of the leaseholders of a few properties along the Rajadamri Road and Rajprasong Road. Both lessors are famous and respectable. Under both long-term leases which are all well registered, the future renewal clause was at the mercy of the lessor and the lessee went in with the opened eyes recognising this disadvantage. But the lessees have the hope that when the time comes, the lessor would be fair like their past conducts.
The value of one property has gone down at a certain level but not proportionately to the prices they originally paid. The declining value is mainly caused by bad management even though the property is situated at the most desirable location facing the whole view of the Royal Bangkok Sports Club. The investment return is not that great.
However, the value of another property on that vicinity has gone up not down while the remaining period is shortened. The reason is mainly due to a good management and sporty Executive Committee who conducts the place like a hotel. There will always be refurbishing and improvements to the corridors etc. Occupancy rate has been in the range of 90% with high rental. The return to the investment is in the two digit range with large capital gain potential.
Irene, Trajan is correct. The only legally binding lease is for a period of 30 years - registered at the Land Office.
The rest is just not worth the paper its is printed on! You say you have these 'well registered' with lessors 'famous and respectable'. Come off it - 'pull the other one' as they say in the UK. Who can say what these companies will be like in 30 years. Lets face it Enron were 'famous and respectable' just a few years ago!
I don't wish to be rude, but you really should not peddle this stuff as 'fact' on TV as is just confuses people.
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I am always keen to see a new option of what to do if/when the new FBA comes into being - could you elaborate on this idea a bit?
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Pridyathorn's departure may be a positive here. With any luck the other obvious foreigner hater in the cabinet, the Commerce Minister Krirk-krai will go too in the reshuffle. At any rate Sarayud has seen that Pridyathorn's anti-foreigner stance did nothing to help the survival chances of his government and may now want to leave the FBA amendments on a back burner, given the huge problems he is facing with the TRT resurgence, the constitutional referendum and his failure in the South. In fact this government's chances of lasting till the next election are not looking so great now. If Sarayud is also replaced, his successor would have an even tougher job to establish credibility in a very short space of time and might not feel any sense of ownership or the FBA amendments.
Land owning companies still face another problem from the Land Code but delaying the FBA amendments would probably give some more breathing space before the possibility of systematic checks could loom. Without any impetus for the Commerce Ministry from the FBA amendments the Lands Dept would have to push the Business Development Department to help it track down illegal land ownership without any benefit to the Commerce Ministry. Not wanting to encourage complacency but feeling more inclined to watch political development for a bit before embarking on expensive restructuring.
Wow - that's one of the most intelligent posts I've seen for ages! Very good, Arkady.
Thanks for your kind words. Four months have passed since my post. Unfortunately Krirk-krai didn't get the boot from the cabinet and vowed that the amendments would be dropped over his dead body. Sarayud was too naive economically and pumped up by his own speeches on self sufficiency to realise the FBA amendments would be a real threat to the country as well as wanting to be nice to all his fellow ex-bureaucrats, however dangerous or useless they might be. The NLA approved in principle an even nastier version of the amendments which increased jail time from 3 to 5 years and removed the amnesties for foreign shareholders and Thai nominees. The last word on the FBA was that the amendments would be passed by the NLA in July or August and would be published in the Royal Gazette to become law by late August. However, things have been silent for the last two months. Possibly it will all go ahead as planned or with a slight delay. However, the Sarayud governement is now dealing with a far thornier piece of legislation which is of great importance to its military masters in the junta in the form of the National Security Act. This aims to return powers to the military they last held under the military dictators of the 70s who used the communist suppression laws to facilitate an open season on any one they disliked, particularly in Isaan and the deep South where villages were bombed to smithereens by the air force allegedly on suspicion of aiding terrorists and Muslims in the South were boiled in oil. On the other hand the FBA amendments mean nothing to the CNS and there is no reason for them to push Sarayud to have them passed. The Democrats have made clear they will throw the FBA amendments out, if they are in power and even Thai Rak Thai did the same before its dissolution. The longevity of an amended FBA seems highly questionable and Krirk-krai may find himself alone in the government in pushing for them, since Chalongphob, the finance minister, although he has been very low profile since his appointment, is a free trader. In this environment and with more pressing issues to deal with in its remaining term it is quite possible that the Sarayud government will quietly forget about the FBA amendments. It is too early say for sure but it is an even bet that the next government will be anxious to get foreign investment rolling again to boost the economy and will attempt to distance itself from the Sarayud's capital controls and FBA amendments.
I would continue to avoid expensive restructurings until the political scene is clearer. A Thai lawyer I met recently who seems quite sensible told me that, even if the amendments are passed, the first line of screening for existing companies will be to check articles of association of companies with foreign shareholders to see, if they have any preferential voting rights. He said that changing the objectives of the company to eliminate Annex 1 and Annex 2 businesses, as some TV posters have suggested, is pointless and may even draw unwelcome attention to the company. Company objectives are usually very broad boilerplate and are not regarded by any one as a guide to what the company actually does. In any case, if you don't have a preference share structure, it wouldn't make any difference, since your company is entitled to do those businesses, many of which require a special licence anyway. Another view he expressed which is contrary to those of some TV posters who are advocating a very cautious approach is that it would be extremely difficult to go after a company majority held by a foreigner's legally married Thai spouse, if it is operating a genuine business, as that would deny a Thai-foreign couple the right to operate a family business which is the core business structure in Thailand. Capital for a wife's investment can be provided in the form a dowry.
The best advice seems to be: for those with preference share structures - restructure or be prepared to restructure to eliminate the prefs at short notice if the FBA gets amended; for those with no business or work permit or not filing accounts - fulfill these legal requirements that are nothing to do with the FBA amendments; for those operating a business legally and filing accounts - wait and see which way the wind blows.
Arkady, yet another admirer here heaping praise on a post of yours - I fully agree with this argument.
My only minor addition would be to suggest that 'seeing which way the wind blows' would involve waiting quite some time after/if the FBA is amended and see how things are actually implemented. Wait for a couple of court cases at least or some firm evidence of true implementation before rushing to do anything.
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I have also heard a few 'anti' comments about leasehold having loopholes. Just how safe am I from a dishonest landlord/freeholder?
I am not an expert, but being a land 'owner' in a company name, I have made a lot of enquiries since the news last year that the land laws would be interpreted more rigidly.
My research into this has come up with the following:
- 30 year lease registered with the Land Registry office is very safe. It has been tested all the way up to the Supreme Court (I was advised this in a thread in TV - so may be worth looking for if you are interested). I have not heard of any loopholes.
- Incidentally - to dispel an urban myth here in Thailand - there is no such thing as a 30+ 30 lease. Only 30 years is recognised legally and then its up to the owner if they want to extend.
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My friend who has leased a small plot has it written into the lease that he can sell it on. She got a lawyer to draft it though of course that does not always mean it's 'legal'.
Interesting post Adagio.
I have been looking at all the options I may use to move my house and land out of the company if the new FBA is a nasty little piece of law. I have not come across this option at all???
Was this 30 year lease registered with the land registry?
I have to say I am sceptical this would be of any real use in practise - BUT if someone has evidence of the contrary it would be another option.
Anyone heard of this???
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If I want to transfer the house we purchased using a company to my Thai wifes name anybody know what it costs (%) or any difficuities in doing it
Cheers
Here is the quote form Sunbelt. Hope it helps:
Message Forwarded From Sunbelt Asia
1. Removing the land from the company and putting into my wife’s name.
Our professional fee is 8,500 Baht
2. Creating a lease whereby I have sole use of the land for a period of 30 years, drawn up in such a way as I have as many rights as is possible and protects me as best as possible under Thai law
Our professional fee is 9,500 Baht
3. Removing the house from the Company and putting into my name
Our professional fee is 8,500 Baht
4. Closing down the company.
If this company has had no activity other than owning the house, we have people who are interested in a shelf company from time to time. The fee than would be 6,000 Baht
If it has had activity, then the process takes around 2 years. The professional fee would be 25,000 Baht plus expenses. ( advert in the newspaper twice and two audits)
Will
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Writing a Will in my wife’s name naming me as the beneficiary in the event of death. I this will allow me one year to dispose of the property or transfer the lease – whichever option I prefer to choose.
Our professional fee is 9,500 Baht.
Tax
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The tax would be around 6%
Regards
Greg
SunBelt Asia
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If I want to transfer the house we purchased using a company to my Thai wifes name anybody know what it costs (%) or any difficuities in doing it
Cheers
Its not hard to do, but not cheap.
As a rough estimate allow 6 percent for the transfer taxes, then the taxes for the lease (if 30 year lease with wife) and shutting down the company on top of that - I assume you will shut down the company.
I have a quote from Sunbelt somewhere - I will see if I can find it.
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Of course CBREs points are self-serving. But it's interesting to see these things actually said publicly. Before it was just guys like me - and a few others saying this - you know 'the whiners'..who were 'exagerating' everything. When senior salespeople start saying it publicly - alarm bells are ringing loudly behind closed doors I'll bet.
I think - okay I 'think' - Pitchon's main point is that the retiree market from developed countries wanting a 2nd home is a growth industry as long as the world economy doesn't tank (yeah, yeah, I know)..and if Thailand wants a piece of the action it needs to become more open - not more closed. There are only so many 'millionaires' out there, but an awful lot more mid-market earners.
Otherwise those people will go elsewhere. All the goods and services that spring up with middle-class investment will also go elsewhere. That's all..
I agree. I am one of these retirees - not a millioanaire (Baht millionaire only!), but at 53 decided to sell up in my home country and retire out here. I bought a house through the company route (normal practise in Thailand - nominees for companies -everyone does it - I was told - even the multi-nationals blah blah blah...). Dont bother flaming me - we all know I am a 'pratt' in some peoples eyes!! However there are a lot of other people like me out there now switching to 30 year leases or Ususfructs or whatever. What a mess !!! who wants the hassle of all that!
What good is a 30 years lease anyway - when I was 20 I never thought I would live to be 50! Now I am 53 I cannot imagine being 80!!
Yet my mum is 87!!! bless her - so I would be booted out of my home when I am 83! Then what??
Lets hope at that age I still have my wits about me and some money in the bank - at least enough for the visa renewal - or I wont have a house NOR will I have a country to live in either!
I would never have bought a house in Thailand if I had better understood the way the Thai authorities would change the way they implemented their laws. I have advised all my chums in the UK and elsewhere to avoid buying property in Thailand.
It seems logical - that now people like me fully understand the thinking of the Thai authorities towards Farang house/land ownership - no more nonsence about land ownership - that we would not want buy a house here.
The Housing market is as bad as it is at last being publicly stated by this thread. This needs to be stated more and more and maybe the FBA will be watered down!
By the way there are now 9 house for re-sale in this estate outside Pattaya. They have come on the market steadily since Jan 2006. Ranging from 3mill to 7million Baht. Only one has been rented out and the rest just sit there empty.
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To feel reasonably confident in speaking and interacting in Thai, it took me about 3 years of study. I am now in on my tenth year since I started to study Thai,
That is inspiring to read as I was always impressed with your Thai writing ability, guess it does take some dedicated time to really get somewhere with it as I have given up "trying" to learn how to read and write the language.
My spoken Thai is very good , at least that is what Thai people tell me.
What do you recommend as the best method of learning to read and write Thai?
My first Thai teacher made me learn the alphabet.
- Write every letter over and over and over and over again
- Say it out loud. Gor Gai, Kor Kai etc...
- Say its class.
It was painful, but a very worthwhile experience.
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great stuff - thanks all for that
the HSBC ---> Kasikorn route looks desirable - I'll look for an appropriate branch...
cheers
EDIT: just to go over I'll need to open a HSBC thai account and transfer HSBC UK > HSBC Thai > Kasikorn as I can't transfer HSBC UK > Kasikorn direct...?
If you are going to go the HSBC UK to Kasikorn route then you dont need an HSBC Thailand account.
In fact thats the way I USED to do it ie: HSBC UK - HSBC THAILAND - Kasikorn.
People on this forum told me it was not necessary - and they were right as my previous thread documented - so I will close my HSBC Thailand account.
Just remember to transfer STERLING to Thailand and do the conversion to Baht in Thailand or you will get the Offshore rate!!
This is what I did last week. Remember I set up a transfer agreement with HSBC UK some years ago - you may have to fill in a form to say you will be transferring money over the phone to Thailand. Its not difficult to do.
1. I called called HSBC online telephone banking.
2. They set up a Template and gave me a number for it for future use so I dont need to give all the Kasikorn Bank details again.
3. They gave me a reference number for this transfer.
I requested they transfer funds from HSBC UK in Sterling to my Thai Farmer account.
They charged me 21 pounds.
They needed the Kasikorn Bank SWIFT Code and my bank account details in Thailand. The SWIFT code is::
-KASITHBK
The funds arrived the next day and I got 68 baht - which was the Onshore Rate (Offshore about 63 that day)
good luck with it.
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No you are not slow. Every one has their own pace.
I have been learning Thai with a teacher for 3 years now and am still not fluent. Each time I think I have 'cracked' it I meet someone I just dont understand at all.
I read and write Thai quite well, but often have a problem understanding what some people say.
Just don't give up - treat it as fun - a long term hobby.
I find that when I have practised a sound and no one still understands the word I am saying I ask them to help me pronounce it - it can become a game of sorts. Best not to try this at the Immigration Office though I discovered!
By the way, my wife and her family do not speak any English so I have to make myself understood at home anyway. I am not sure this helps though as for a while I used to speak a special brand of Thai which included all our silly ThaiGlish phrases !!!
Good Luck
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HSBC to Kasikorn is painless - see my experience here:
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=127254
Good Luck
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Even after the alleged "crackdown" on limited companies....has there been a single example of houses being "re-possessed"???
Thai's aren't stupid...do you think they'll upset a multi-billion $$$ industry???
RAZZ
I agree with you on this Razz. When I saw the above post saying 'MaiBhenRhai', I thought it applied more to those of us with land 'ownership' through the company route. A year has gone by and nothing.
Maybe though LaeosDherrDuang (roughly translated - 'depends on fate')- would be more appropriate.
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Sorry if I have missed this but does anyone know the outcome of the share discussions in the fba?
Any affect on houses in companies?
I dont know anything about the shares issue, but as one of the poor fools who has a house in a company name (flamers please dont comment heard it all before) we are all eagerly awaiting the vote on the FBA.
The best place to read about the FBA and the company/housing impact when the FBA is finalised is in the Real Estate and Housing TV forum - I can assure you it will be analysed in minute detail!!!
See you there
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Sir_Sanuk,
I was in this forum for a completely different reason and I have no idea of the wage structure in Bangkok.
I was however struck by your question.
I suggest you answer the following standard question:
- where do you see yourself in 5 years time both professionally and personally.
Be honest with yourself.
Then decide what you need to fund that ambition.
If you cannot achieve it in Thailand then go where you can achieve it, but you need to answer this first!
Mind you the advice above sounds pretty sensible to me - return to Thailand when you can take it easy.
Good luck with whatever you decide - even if you make a poor decision now there is no reason you cannot sort it out in a few years time!
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That was really easy.
The money to HSBC arrived the following morning and the money to Kasikorn arrived later in the day.
I was really dreading doing this - expecting all kinds of things to go wrong!
I dont have the exact figures, but the exchange rate was just over 68 on both exchanges.
Thanks to the people on this forum for their help.
I hope by documenting this transfer it helps cmsally and anyone else in a similar situation.
Now to shut down that HSBC account and save the montly payment.
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I have an HSBC UK credit card and an HSBC debit card sent to Thailand along with my cards from Halifax.
To activate them, I have to phone up and give all my details and say I have received it safely.
HSBC sends cards by registered mail - Halifax I seem to recall does not - which is very poor on the security front. I said I would pick it up from their office in the UK in future, but was told Halifax no longer offered this service??
As my cards dont expire for several years now, I did not pursue the Halifax issue - I will worry about it when they are ready to expire again.
I would suggest you contact your bank and ask them if they send out cards as registered mail - if of course they do send cards abroad at all that is.
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I have just called HSBC and the whole process was painless. I have set up the followingto test the two different routes, if the Thai Farmer route works OK - I will shut down the HSBC account:
1. Transfer in Sterling to my HSBC account in Bangkok cost 10 pounds.
2. Transfer in Sterling to my Thai Farmer account cost 21 pounds.
They needed the SWIFT Code and my bank details in Thailand. They are:
-HSBCTHBK
-KASITHBK
I will now have to wait up to 6 working days to see what rate I get!
I was given a template for each of the transfers, so next time I don’t need to give them all the details, just the amount I want to transfer. They also deleted the old transfer requesting tranfer in Baht!
For transfer 2, I discussed the Correspondent bank issue with them and they said it was not necessary for Thailand. Anyway we shall see!
I'll post the rate I get next week!
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I have been transferring funds from HSBC UK to HSBC Bangkok for several years now.
I used to do the exchange into Baht in the UK. That was fine until the last transfer when I only got 63 Baht as per the Offshore rate.
I am just about to make another transfer, but am doing it straight to my Thai farmer account and telling HSBC to send Sterling, as I will then get the Onshore rate, which on the day I got an Offshore rate of 63, was about 67 - so the difference is quite considerable.
If you search for my name, you will see there are a couple of threads here where I discussed all the issues you are about to encounter.
The cost from HSBC to HSBC is 10 pounds per transfer, from HSBC to Thai Farmer is 20 pounds per transfer.
Once I prove this route works I will shut down the HSBC account in Bangkok, which costs me 300 baht a month as I dont have the 500,000 baht balance there.
One thing to be wary of though is the Correspondent Bank. Again if you look at a thread from a couple of weeks ago this is explained in some detail.
I will let you know how my transfer goes - it will have to be better than the last transfer on the rate anyway - I hope!
edit: If you transfer in pounds sterling then you get the Onshore rate, which is shown as the published TT rate. There is a link to a website with the latest rate shown above in TV - or just log onto Bangkok Bank or Thai Farmer website. I am not an expert by the way - so treat any advice I give with caution!
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Thanks again Firefoxx.
I have enough info now to make an informed decision.
much appreciated.
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Thanks for the info Firefoxx.
I noticed when I was googling around there were a lot of Ebayers selling them at increased prices.
If I were to buy the chipped one, then would it cause me major problems down the road do you think? I will be playing on:
- Pal TV
- 220/240 volts
- Will buy games in Thailand
and need the instructions in English (hey American will do I guess
)Thanks again for your help.
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I was reading this thread as I am interested in buying a Wii.
AS this last post is a couple of months old now I was hoping someone could help me with an update - things change quite quickly in this area.
I am not a long term 'gamer', but fancied the idea of the Sports games to play with the family. Mainly my wife at first. That would no doubt lead us into trying and buying more games.
So could you please tell me what's the latest thinking on where is the best place to buy a Wii, that is 'legal' and with all correct manuals etc... I have been through the 'chipping' route before for DVD's and dont want all that hassle again.
I live in Pattaya, but could go up to Bangkok to get one.
Thanks for any advice you can give.
edit: the wesite Friefox mentions has the US version for 15,500 Baht. Would that play OK in Thailand or will it need additional kit - ie to 220 volts etc... Does it still have the Mod chip ? Or is it standard US build?
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I have looked all over for low calorie drinks. The only thing I can find - apart from water - is Pepsi Max or Coke Zero.
Full of caffeine.
Recently back in the UK I went into Tesco and they had loads of low calorie orange squash, lemon squash etc... just add some water - really refreshing.
But not over here???
Any thoughts???
you are a desesperate man from ????? just drink water and if water here is not good for you ! import from your country like amerigay in vietnam war 30 years ago !!!!!!!
Amerigay?
Hmmmm! I wonder??
Mark:, I wondered if there was a hidden meaning there as well ??? I was only desperate for some variation in my drinking habits - honest
Awayfoe: Come off it - are you saying you only eat boiled rice and fish for each meal every day. Its called variation and is one of the joys of life.
Blimey I dont smoke, nor drink, eat unhealthy food, nor take advantage of the pleasures offered in the bars of Patters. I don't even pollute the planet with unnecessary carbon. So Please Please Please allow me to at least sample the as yet unknown delights of some fluid that isn't bl**dy water.
Macx: If I were able to take one or two small sips of certain fluids - I wouldn't have had to give up the booze four years ago.
edit: by the way I tried lime and soda water yesterday in a pint beer glass (courtesy of x local pub in the UK) with ice and it was delicious - so thanks for that tip.
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Thanks BambinA,
My Thai wife read both these sentences and said she would probably say it this way rather than the shorter sentence - which surprised me.
The thing is she only speaks Thai, so trying to ask her how to say something means I have to form the question in Thai - so it can get very confusing with a sentence like this!
The Property Industry Finally Speaks Up
in Real Estate, Housing, House and Land Ownership
Posted
We are discussing this here.
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=131932
I am no expert believe me, but since last year I have looked into the company structure thing and all the options. I have been offered good advice from the experts here on TV - who I trust more than any other source - and I have been convinced - there is no such thing as a 30+30 year lease that is worth the paper it is printed on.
The 30 year lease also MUST be registered at the Land Office.
If you want tenure beyond 30 years then you need a Usufrct, which allows you to remain in the property until you die. That is another subject though isn't it, with another set of questions not relevant to this thread.