dsfbrit

Arkady, I think we have both spent a lot of time looking into this issue.

Each 'solution' I have come up with has pros and cons and none has passed the 'test'.

The tests for me being:

1. whether I feel I am any 'better off' legally ie: is there more chance I will be able to

live in this house for the rest of my life if I want to.

2. Will I be able to sleep better without the worry of the 'land police' knocking at the door.

Dealing with the 2nd part first, I dont lose any sleep at all now. Last May when I first read about this land enforcement, I nearly ****ed myself. Now I have spent time understanding all the issues I dont lose any sleep at all. In fact I enjoy the discussion about what people are doing about it all - its become a hobby!

With the first part though, I dont think making the wife the major share holder would pass my 'test'. I get the feeling I would be better off with the land in her name / 30 year lease rather than doing this. Do you see an advantage in having her as the major shareholder if it were to be a proven viable set-up for you?

It seems a lot of hassle to me for very little real gain for you? especially if the FBA legislation is 'watererd down' and then not implemented/enforced with any real enthusiasm?

Nothing wrong with buying this property if its worth it. Being 'worth it' is a whole different discussion though.

The important thing is to de-couple it from the company structure when he buys it, before he is the owner. The costs of this can be split between your friend and the current company owners.

In other words buy via the lease route/ Usufruct etc...

Do not buy the company with the land etc... it is not worth the hassle/uncertainty and he will have all the problems with the additional business taxes if he does try to remove the property from the company in the next few years.

I have a property that is owned using the company method and I would not use it if I were buying a property now. Not worth the hassle.

Sunbelt would be the best people to advice your friend in this matter as they dont like the property method and they are considered to be honest.

good luck

I know the topic is Should tourists avoid Pattaya.

I would be interested to know it they did avoid Pattaya this year.

I live just outside Pattaya and dont visit much at night nowadays, so have no real idea what the height of the season was like.

Bought the paint etc...

The 'black stuff' on the top of the walls - see it all over the place on outside walls - what is it?

Is this just the damp?

Can I just wash it off and get painting or do I need to do something else first?

Thanks for any advice.

I was looking at pictures of the aftermath of the IRA bomb in Manchester today. I was in Manchester when that bomb went off (it was the largest terrorist bomb to detonate in the UK). There were lots of people injured but, thankfully, no one was killed.

Sadly, I think it's just a question of time until a tourist spot is hit in Thailand. It appears that the government are doing very little about. Closing off the stairs and searching bags on the MRT seems to be the extent of there precautions as far as I can see. That's not going to stop a determind terrorist.

Agreed.

Sorry you were in Manchester at that time. I lived and worked near the City of London when Canary Wharf and Liverpool Street etc... were targetted. I wasn't scared for some reason, more miffed by the 'ring of steel' they erected everywhere. Sad about the deaths though!

They searched under my Pickup with the 'mirrors on a stick' when I went to collect my wife from Pattaya Bangkok hospital yesterday. I found that a bit disconcerting, brought it home to me the reality of what is going on elsewhere in Thailand.

On quite a few occasions in London I reported bags and things to police or the owners of pubs when 'dickheads' just left them lying around the place. They often seemed to leave their bags on the floor next to me and went to talk to their chums at the other end of the pub! or go to the toilet for a while!!! I suppose we will be having to report 'suspicious' looking parcels soon - dont know who to though!

Yes a very good post Alf.

In fact it would be a good MAIN topic to discuss in its own thread. How about making it a main topic?

I have also spent a lot of time looking into this whole land ownership issue - since last May when it was first printed.

Although I could not put is so eloquently, I think it says very well what I have been slowly coming to think.

Last week when I went to see my lawyer about another matter - he said pretty much the same thing when I mentioned the land /company thing.

No doubt that comment will attract such feedback as 'well he would wouldn't he', but I believe him scarily enough. No I am not gullible nor stupid and I am very wary of people - believe me.

He has spent a lot of time in Thai courts defending farangs and knows the Thai legal system well.

So to add to the debate of this thread, I am not so sure that lawyers cannot be trusted in the dealings

related to company / land ownership setup.

After all have they been proven wrong yet - has one farang been let down by their Thai lawyer in this arena - is there 1 case of a farang having his/her land confiscated and the lawyer 'doing a runner'.

If the 'land police' knock on my door I will go and see him and we will discuss all the options, along the lines of Alf's post I suspect.

There may be an out of court settlement we can arrive at.

If not we will put together out best case and go into court as a team to debate/fight the issues.

I may lose.

I may even win.

However, I do think my lawyer would do his best.

He cannot do more than his best.

So start trusting your lawyer a bit more may be a good idea - he may just know more about the Thai legal system than we do.

Marriage certainly is a gamble.

As its off topic I wont post a long reply.

I have kept the bulk of my retirement money in the UKand have a pre-nup as well! so I did follow the golden rule Donx. In fact I have think I have a Platinum rule that I follow!!! Which involves protecting myself as much as I can, without being mean nor unfair to my wife.

The topic of this thread is about method of 'owning' land in Thailand:

If I had the chance again I may not choose to 'own' land through the company route and maybe would have put in my wifes name and lease.

Even now though, I am not sure that is a good idea and if the FBA changes do not materialise and the status quo is maintained for the company 'thing' - then in 5 years time I will be pleased I 'held my nerve'.

We shall see.

[quote name='Arkady' post='1173155' date='2007-03-02 12:29:07'

Pridyathorn's departure may be a positive here. With any luck the other obvious foreigner hater in the cabinet, the Commerce Minister Krirk-krai will go too in the reshuffle. At any rate Sarayud has seen that Pridyathorn's anti-foreigner stance did nothing to help the survival chances of his government and may now want to leave the FBA amendments on a back burner, given the huge problems he is facing with the TRT resurgence, the constitutional referendum and his failure in the South. In fact this government's chances of lasting till the next election are not looking so great now. If Sarayud is also replaced, his successor would have an even tougher job to establish credibility in a very short space of time and might not feel any sense of ownership or the FBA amendments.

Land owning companies still face another problem from the Land Code but delaying the FBA amendments would probably give some more breathing space before the possibility of systematic checks could loom. Without any impetus for the Commerce Ministry from the FBA amendments the Lands Dept would have to push the Business Development Department to help it track down illegal land ownership without any benefit to the Commerce Ministry. Not wanting to encourage complacency but feeling more inclined to watch political development for a bit before embarking on expensive restructuring.

Agreed. When I saw he had resigned I did wonder if that might be a positive development for those of us watching the FBA legislation develop.

I guess we shall just have to wait and see...

That depends on who you marry...

I know this is off topic, but I disagree with what I believe you are suggesting - which is there are good and bad spouses and so if you choose a 'good' wife then all is OK.

Sure there are people out there - Thais girls here as this is Thailand - who may want to con you out of your money.

However, there are a lot more marriages that fail due to both parties no longer 'getting on' and no longer wanting to be together.

This is not due to either party being inherently 'bad' - they have just changed and want to split for some reason.

Now in Thailand if this happens and everything is in the wife's name - then what!!

Lets face it, I will need to remain with my Thai wife for another 30 years if I 'trust' her with everything in her name and want to live in this house for the rest of my life(say).

That is a scary prospect, especially as I was divorced from my 1st wife after 12 years.

We are still friends and split everything 50/50 - without any lawyers.

Would I be so 'fortunate' a second time.

I am not rushing to put any assets in my Tha wife's name - no matter how much I trust her.

House and just under 1 Rai of land in Pattaya in majority farang shareholder company.

Set this up 3 years ogo, I guess its 'worth' about 5-6 million Baht - not that want to sell it even if I could.

I will switch this to 30 year lease (land) with my Thai wife if/when I have to.

I will keep house in my name.

I would have gone the lease route in the first place, but I figured if we get divorced - lest face it 30 years is a long time - I would have more problems with a lease.

However, with the chaos in the new legislation - it seems like it may be some time yet before I have to do anything regarding the 'illegal' company, so will just sit tight for now.

Interesting poll by the way

I think lots of us IF and WHEN will be necessary will switch to leasehold.

In the worst case we will have bit of time to do it and arrange it.

But in my case more difficult because we (me and my wife) are both foreign.

Still hope for something good come up (freehold) under 1 rai, or something restored in term of

investment quota or....I will give land to somebody and rent land from him with penalties in contract who

can protect me and avoid to kick my h..s

Perhaps you can adopt a Thai child and transfer to them. Don't think anything very good is going to come up for this type of situation. Best to hope for is that they backtrack on Annex 3 of the FBA which might give less reason for the MoC to investigate the companies, most of which fall under the Annex 3 category of "all other services not mentioned elsewhere in the act", if you ignore their dealing in land which puts them in Annex 1. Nothing good will happen re land ownership. This problem started last March with the Interior Ministry's letter. Guidelines re enforcement may still be clarified. There is no talk of a grace period to restructure land ownership and it seems unlikely. The grace periods are only for Annex 1 and Annex 2 businesses not involving land. Watch out for the 90 day amnesty for Thai nominees effective from the date the new law will be published in the Royal Gazette. They will be encouraged to shop you to avoid prosecution and to grab their 51% or more share of your property.

An intersting couple of replies, reflecting the 2 ends of the spectrum of what may be the outcome of this review.

At the one end some hope there will be a (senssible?) liberalisation of the land laws.

At the other end a suspicion the laws will be tightened to 'protect' the Thais.

Only time will tell and until then most of us I suspect are hoping for the best, but are planning for the worst.

Experience of life tells me that there will be a 'solution' that doesn't quite satisfy anyone, but can be lived with by most - except those that have bent the legal loop-holes in company law and land ownership to a level beyond just 'illegaly' buying a bit of land to live on for the rest of their life in peace!!

We shall see...

This is what I think will happen

The supply side - condo inventory will go up, along with the price in only short term. But ofcourse this is Thailand where people will just keep raising the price no matter what.

The demand side – the number will increase only slightly but not much. Here are some reasons.

People who want a house will continue to do so (thru the wife this time around) because they don’t like the condo living in the first place. Most expats who’re staying in Thailand have a wife and children, all are demanding their own diff. spaces (quiet, relaxing, sleep, entertainment, yard / play area for kids, yard of cats/dogs, parking etc.), in addition many of them just absolutely love gardening and home improvement (western mentaliy?). These expats with children will focus most on the development and well being of their children. Their demand for diversity of spaces, is the foremost reason why they would continue living in a home not a condo, because for them the place has to be large enough to accommodate their growing family and needs. So condo is out for them.

Spot on BKK - its just not the same renting something like this either - out with the painbrush this weekend - lovely!

As for condo prices, the condos in the 49 percent should sell quicker than the others if not at a massively greater price.

The 15000 baht ? that needs to be paid for the annual company balance sheet should force up this differential premium slightly as well.

The thing is though - when someone sees that perfect little condo they really really want - they will just throw logic out of the window and buy it - company or not. Let's face it, those of us who have land via the company route are the real 'villains' - the condo ownership company 'thing' is a long way down the pecking order - well under the radar in my opinion.

ICI Dulux is considered the best paint here in Thailand, with TOA being the most popular, and Jotun being an overpriced TOA.

Bear in mind that all paintwork here has a max lifespan of around 3 years. If its exterior it will be filthy enough for a repaint after that time, and interior walls, as they are not plastered attract the dirt and grime.

With this in mind, i dont see the point in spending 300 or 400% of the cost of a TOA classic sheild, or TOA Sheild 1. Also, the most expensive paints such as Supersheild tend to be much more watery and therefore give less coverage.

In answer to the OP's question, i think that gburns has nailed it. Theres o such thing as damp proofing here, so damp prevention is the name of the game.

Thanks for the advice moonfruit - Dulux it is then.

I am about to paint the outside of the house including the outside walls.

No wood painting just the concrete walls.

I will probably do this work myself, so I was interested in the best paint to use.

It seems a choice between TOA and Jotun ?

In the UK I always used Dulux.

I would rather use the best paint so I dont have to paint again for several years.

I will just use white. Nice and easy and looks clean and tidy afterwards.

The current paintwork has not peeled, just looks a bit 'tired' so can I paint straight on top of the current paint?

Any advice would be appreciated.

thanks

I have a legal Thai wife too and use the retirement visa. If the financial requirements are not a problem for you, the retirement visa is much faster and simpler. The immigration office prefers that too because it is a lot less bother for them. The retirement visa may not be the official name but I can assure you that they certainly know what you mean.

Thanks to all of you.

OK, so the so called retirement visa is actually a Non Imm OA..I see that from the Hull Consulate web site. I also see that I appear to need a police report from the UK and this can take several weeks and I guess not a small amount of money. Do I actually need this as I already have an O visa.

It appears that a good way forward is to extend my present visa for up to one year, every 90 days and then decide what to do. Can I renew my Multi O visa in Thailand? if not guess it O-A.

So I can buy a car..good. I know how to get a licence..need to pay the British embassy some 1700Baht for them to say where I live, get the form, photos IDP and licence copies etc..... and then go to the proper offices..was there last week getting the tax/on wifes car.

I am a Brit in Thailand with a Thai wife and have an extension based on marriage.

I have never needed a Police report from the UK or anywhere else.

good luck

In the past few years, it appears that every Thai lawyer recommended setting up a Thai company to "purchase" the land that their customers new house sat on.

As a result, most farang, who do not have Thai wives/husbands, complied and bought the land through the Thai company.

Due to the fact that this route is apparently illegal, why does every house or land purchase thread on this forum, have someone who recommends that the prospective purchasers of house/land seeks "good legal advice"

Where do we get this "good legal advice" Do we go back to the lawyers who gave "good legal advice" in the past, or are there a new bunch of lawyers in town who can carry out this simple act.

I have sympathy with this view.

However, I have looked into all aspects of this over the past 9 months.

A bit of a roller coaster of emotions I assure you.

I have come to the conclusion that most things are 'illegal' in Thailand and the Thai authorities remind us of this fact when it suits them - bless 'em.

So take all the 'illegal' comments with a pinch of salt and see how they are implemented in the 'real' world.

My favourite list of 'illegal' activites is found here:

My favourite of all was and still is item 39

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90291

Has anyone had direct experience of problems because they did take this well used route to house ownership?????????????????????

You make a good point Astral.

I have looked into all aspects of this during the last 9 months.

In fact I went to see my Thai lawyer yesterday to do the annual accounts for my dormant company that was set up purely to buy land in Thailand.

I was half way decided to do the 'land in wifes name / lease thing'

We had a long talk about the land issue and farangs.

I realise that he likes his 15000 baht a year to do my accounts, but we have had quite a few dealings since I met him 5 years ago and he has always acted in a reputable way. Alyways done what he has promised and has several other farang clients that I know who think he is 'ok'.

He said that Thai laywers dont really spend much time discussing land issues, the hot topic at the moment are the new visa laws.

He really could not understand why farang newspapers made this land issue such a big thing - maybe to sell papers.

He pointed out that not one farang in the Chonburi area had a problem owning land via the company route. He also pointed out there were many thousand of farang companies who own land in this way (10000?) in the Chonburi area alone. I am not sure of that number though - he may just have said many thousand?

He also said if I did have a problem we can 'make a lease for your wife' at that time. Mind you having seen the amount of business tax etc... I will have to pay to transfer the land - I am not so keen on the idea.

I believe and within reason trust him.

Hey he may be wrong - but I am now prepared to leave the company alone and see how it goes.

No - this is not burying my head in the sand - its called making an informed decision.

Others may come to a different decision - fair enough, but that doesn't mean they are right nor I am wrong.

So Astral, I will be interested to see if/when the first reposession of land takes place.

I 'own' land through the company route and have spent the last months looking at all the options to move the land to my Thai wife.

I wont bother you with all the details, but unless you have a Thai wife - I would not consider the Usufruct option at all.

In fact if I were you - I would not 'buy' land here at all.

If you must own some property in Thailand - its nice to own something - then get a condo in your own name - nice and legal - and make sure its part of the legal 49 percent farang ownership.

Good luck

I know that there are a bunch of people posting about real estate success goals for 2007 on the net and in all the real estate forums. But I wanted to add my 2 cents.

How will you measure success in real estate this year?

I’d really like to hear from all the real estate investors on here. I think hearing from everyone about their real estate investing success mission this year will give each of us a swift kick to get it moving and make this our year! lol

I also think that if we all share our goals for 2007, that it will help each of us learn from one another and think outside of the box a little bit.

So please - post on here about your real estate investing success goals for 2007.

Be specific (as specific as you can be without giving away any trade secrets.

"If you're going to be thinking, you might as well think BIG." Donald Trump

Edit: removed by dsfbrit - much too rude a reply methinks

...No one has presented any first-hand knowledge of any farang losing property due to Thai laws. On the other hand, there are lots of first-hand stories of guys losing property to wives, GFs, and business partners.

Uh, all three of those examples very much do involve Thai law -- the law that defines you and me and every other farang here not as an equal but as a temporary guest in this country, no matter the duration of one's visa.

Unless one is a citizen here, one is at a distinct disadvantage right from the outset (particularly if you can't understand what is being said, read what's being put in front of you to sign, etc.).

So, what are you trying to say?

I think he is simply pointing out that despite all the comments relating to such things as owning land 'illegally' via the company route - the people who predicted there would be a large number of farang who would have their land confiscated in midnight raids from the 'land police' were plain wrong.

As for being equal to some poor poverty stricken Thai - forget it. I would rather be an unequal Farang with enough money and a good Thai lawyer and 'been around' for a while and know how to fight my corner.

Sure I may lose, but at least I would be able to moderate my stance as each new situation evolved. I have found in Thailand that most things can be negotiated - in other words very few things in Thailand that are 'illegal' are really 'illegal' in the Farang sense of the word.

If they were there would be none of these jobs carried out by Farang - Number 39 is my favourite.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=90291

House and just under 1 Rai of land in Pattaya in majority farang shareholder company.

Set this up 3 years ogo, I guess its 'worth' about 5-6 million Baht - not that want to sell it even if I could.

I will switch this to 30 year lease (land) with my Thai wife if/when I have to.

I will keep house in my name.

I would have gone the lease route in the first place, but I figured if we get divorced - lest face it 30 years is a long time - I would have more problems with a lease.

However, with the chaos in the new legislation - it seems like it may be some time yet before I have to do anything regarding the 'illegal' company, so will just sit tight for now.

Interesting poll by the way

We are thinking of doing this as well.

Do documents that are currently in her name need to be changed ie: motorbike, house document...?, I cannot think of anything else off the top of my head.

I've seen several houses for sale in a company name, and notes along the lines of 'allowing foreign ownership'. I know you can buy a condo outright, and can not own a house (or the land its on I think) so whats with selling a house under a company name?

Is this some sort of loophole allowing foreigners to buy houses?

Loophole - yes.

It is illegal and the subject of many forum threads - search for land ownership and you will find many many articles.

Those of us who did this over the past 15-20 years are eagerly awaiting some new legislation to let us know if the government are going to reposssess the land under our houses or not.

I cannot be more blunt than that in warning you off - can I?

The lease is valid if in your wife's or childs name on divorce.

This has been tested to the equivalent of the supreme court (discussed in this forum).

The Usufruct has not been tested in the courts for the divorce scenario - but should be OK (discussed in this forum also).

The trouble is when I did my pre-nup I was told by the lawyer that if we had kids the pre-nup would be null and void.

Basically, ignoring all the subtle detail about the 50 per cent split rules etc..., I would have to provide a house and pay maintence for her and the child.

So it would make little difference is I lived in the current house as I would have to provide another house for them anyway! So they may just as well have this house.

Mind you this house is only worth 6 million Baht - yours may be worth a lot more - and I personally would prefer

to rent/own a condo if I were living on my own.

Get a good lawyer, hide your money not in this country and good luck

Thanks for that - I was buying a new laptop today and the brochure/spec didn't show a Lan port, so thought I may have to use a USB port. It turns out it does have a Lan port - so no worries.

Useful thread, I reckon IPStar / TOT looks acceptable in its performance.

I guess they offer a choice of network interfaces methods to the PC - do they offer via USB 2 (or 1).

If not what are the options ?