dsfbrit

However, my first thought was to actually transfer the house to my wife and close the company untill i was made aware of the tax costs etc. - related to land registry. The company transfer was quite simple and cost a nominal fee. The only down side is my wife has to pay for a balance sheet each year - and when she decides to close the company she will have to transfer the property to herself and pay all the relevant land registry taxes etc...

...

Is this not why the thais are looking at the company route of buying propertys?

Agreed, it is very expensive, Taxes on transfering, taxes on lease, shutting down the company etc... making a will for the wife to say if she dies the place is yours etc... I estimated on my place which is only 'worth' about 5-6 Million Baht I would need to pay in total 300,000 - 400,000 Baht.

It makes no difference if she shuts the company down now or in 10 years time though - there is no 'tapering' relief to these taxes.

So I have left my home in my name for now and will pay the 15000 baht a year for the balance sheet(s).

I did not know the Thais were looking into this method to own land - your wife now owns the company/land and can do what she wants with it. I suppose if she sells the land/house in the coming years then it may be cost effective. I would need to sell the house within the next 20 years or so for it to be cost effective ie: 15000 * 20 years = 300,000 baht as a rough calculation.

Relating back to the original post, and to related changes that have been made since last year,

IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENSE. THIS IS THAILAND!

Conspiracy theories are fun but futile. There is no organized conspiracy because 'they' don't do such things here to farang. The powers that be mumble, fumble, make arbitrary, senseless changes, pass laws they don't enforce, and enforce laws they never passed. Which is all the more reason to get the He11 out of Dodge.

Or you can interpret these proposed ungazzetted changes with a mai bpen rai attitude. Unless you can meet the requirements they give you the next time you go to immigration, it doesn't matter what the law ever said. Never mind.

Spot On PB, once people grasp that fact and stop thinking like a 'farang' - everything falls into place and living in LOS becomes a pleasant, but sometimes chaotic, experience.

I am offering a couple of personal examples here to provide some encouragement to those affected by this proposed change.

I am a 53 year old farang, married to a Thai, with a visa based on marriage (not retirement). I own a house, which I mistakenly bought through the company route.

Over the last couple of years, I have come onto TV and almost been sick with worry about what I have read. The 2 subjects were:

1. The tightening of the implemetaion of the rules over land ownership via the company route. Basically the initial article and all the indications at that time meant I would have my land repossessed by the Government. Since then, nothing much has happened and that was nearly 18 months ago now. Some farang have restructured their company, or moved the land to Thais and leased or whatever.

2. The tightening up of the visa rules in October 2006. Again there were all kinds of dire warnings of the impact this would have on farangs. However, most people found a way through the mess with help from TV and others. At the moment I am allowed to deposit 400,000 baht as before as this was 'grandfathered' in. I expect this to change sometime though!

The point is life goes on and I keep up to date with what it going on and am ready to do something if I need to.

Once the 'dust has settled' on this latest change, I am sure there will be a way around it - there usually is.

I think it was Groucho Marx who said 'I would not want to be a part of a club that would want me as a member' (was it??). I think the battle to stay in the LOS is just a part of the 'event' of living somewhere I really want to be.

Good Luck to those of you who are impacted by this change - like me with changes above -you will sort something out I am sure.

A Thai friend of mine is in Sydney and struggling with her homework. I have helped with 4 of the questions, but am weak on Phonetics.

I would appreciate any comments on what I have written already. I have got most of my recent rapidly acquired knowledge from Wikipedia, I am no expert on this at all. Once I have understood it I will try to explain it all to her - the poor kid is in tears trying to understand it . Thanks for any feedback.

Here is the question and my partial (poor attempt) at a reply:

Question

----------

Given the following set of data, explain the distribution of [a] and [ã]; are they allophones of one phoneme, or contrasting sounds? If allophones, describe their distribution.

carton [katen] smart [smat]

laugh [laf] can’t [kãnt]

task [task] sample [sãmpel]

cart [kat] calm [kãm]

Answer So far

----------------

- The distribution of non-aspirated [a] is anywhere and for the nasalised [ã], is before a nasal consonant.

- Any group of related sounds which are phonetically different but are treated as equivalent in a particular language is a PHONEME of that language. And the sounds themselves, the “members of the family”, are called ALLOPHONES of the phoneme. In this case both [ã] and [a] are allophones of the phoneme /a/.

- [a] and [ã] have a complementary distribution.

Found 2 pics from the Grand hotel One shows how far from the center it is (the tall building is Hilton). Could be 10-15 mins walk (while walking I was stopping to see shops and buy things, can't say exactly).

The second pic is from my room, there is a night bazar and food stalls in front of the hotel (hotel parking in the back is guarded by several security staff).

No pics of the room, probably it can be googled.

Thanks for that - if I get down there I will give it a try. I know where it is from the Hilton, as I say I have stayed at the Hilton before. I still cannot believe it was taking me so long to get down there. I am sure when I first went from Hua Hin to Pattaya by taxi few years ago, it was only a 3 or 4 hour drive? Mind you that was by taxi - I tend to obey at least some of the rules of the Highway code here!!

Dao Khanong > Samut Sakhon > Samut Songkram > Phetchaburi > Cha Am > Hua Hin

Pattaya - Hua Hin is about 490 km

A whole day event, I would plan for 7-8 hours drive.

No need to go through Cha Am...the highway has direct link to Hua Hin.

The Grand hotel is Ok for 1200-1300B (rack price is 2200B), similar venue as Jomtien Garden Palace or Jomtien Welcome in Pattaya.

You are right. I set off at 6.30 last Saturday. After nearly 2 hours I was only at the Airport. Not a lot of traffic, but all the roadworks on the A7 were a bit of a nightmare. I looked at the map and decided to head back to Pattaya. I reckoned it would take another 4 hours at the rate I was going. I didn't mind the trip there taking a long time, but I figured the trip back on Sunday would be a lot worse as I would set off back about lunchtime and there would be a lot of traffic then.

May try again in a few weeks and stay a few days, make it worth all the effort.

Had a similar experience. I bought their BBQ chicken about a month ago. Got it home, took off the plastic rapper and it was off. I did not take it back as it was only 80 Baht and it would cost me 50 Baht in fuel to make a special journey back to Pattaya. Anyway, it was the first football match of the season on the TV, so had better things to do

Gave it to the local stray dogs. I used to be a regular shopper there, but go to Tesco and Big C, who are a lot cheaper anyway for the items I buy.

Hi

Where are you planning on learning?

In your home country or Thailand?

I am currently studying in the UK quite successfully & would be happy to help if i can...

Yes, I was asking for specific advice, for example, specific books or material.

Right now, my career keeps me in my home country of Canada for all but 6 or 7 weeks a year.

So studying in Thailand is pretty much out of the question.

How are you doing it?

I'll be in Pattaya in November to buy material, whatever would take me up to the next level, then the next.

I'm pretty determined right now and I don't think this is going to change until I've mastered the language.

Any advice is appreiated, thanks.

1. Get youself a book and tape/cd called 'Teach Yourself Thai', by David Smyth ISBN-0-340-59041-6.

2. Thai 'Reference Grammar' Higbie/Thinsan ISBN-974-8304-96-5

3. Dictionary - English-Thai Longmans Basic ISBN 974-92005-0-0

4. Electronic Dictionary - Cyberdict/E-Dict

5. Alphabet Wallchart

Learn the alphabet, practise writing - you can do this on planes etc... without upsetting other passengers, if you dont do it out aloud

Why do we not get any responses from our legal eagles forum sponser who have been promoting the usufruct in previous posts. Are they afraid to loose face? Get burned, or do they admit they are just good in setting up front companies but do not know much about Thai law

Are Sunbelt now running down their operation in Thailand? They used to be quite active on this forum and the Visa forum, I dont see much from them now.

Yesterday, I also went to find their office in Pattaya, for future reference should I need them. I happened to be in the area for another reason, so I went upstairs to the 2nd floor of the building next to the Dolphin roundabout. It was all shuttered-up. This was at about 11.30 am - so I would have thought it would have been open. Downstairs there are several law firms - these were all open and quite busy.

Sorry dsfbrit, it has nothing to do with tested in Court or not. For you I would say be happy with your company ownership as no one has had any problems untill now (take a usufruct or lease from your company if things get worse and dissolve the thing.) For the ones who have dissolved their company on thier lawyers advice and transferred the property to their wife, thinking they are protected for life with a usufruct or lease, I would say go after your lawyer, because his advice was ####.

I could not agree more. It is what I have decided to do. Its the best of a bad bunch of options - and who knows - one day we wicked farangs who want to own a bit of land in the LOS may even be permitted to do so

Hope so but fear it'll probably be even tighter for us going by the current regime

Cheer Up jackr - this regime will be gone soon and there will be a shiny new version in the New Year. Bear in mind, there has not been a single legal case against any farang with a 'dodgy' company. This regime could have come after us at any time without any need for the revised FBA - there is no hard evidence there is any real 'will' to do this now, nor in the future either. There are always people who will say 'but they may in the future'. What do they know ?.

The only thing that is certain is death and taxes...

Anything that is plugged in/connected to the electrical system can be fried by lightening.

Unplug/disconnect anything you can't afford to lose.

Cheers

This is the best and most simple advice in my opinion. Include aerials as well, in the UK I went away on holiday, unplugged everything, but forgot the aerial on the downstairs TV - the neighbours said there had been a massive lightning storm whilst we were away and the repair guy said several neighbours sets had also been damaged.

In Thailand last year, the house was struck and the burglar alarm was damaged as we had a telephone line going into it - to call the security firm if the house was burgled when we were away.

I have also fitted line surge protection plugs and power-backup/ line filters to my computer etc... Dont know how much use they will be if the house is hit when my computer is switched on though?

Sorry dsfbrit, it has nothing to do with tested in Court or not. For you I would say be happy with your company ownership as no one has had any problems untill now (take a usufruct or lease from your company if things get worse and dissolve the thing.) For the ones who have dissolved their company on thier lawyers advice and transferred the property to their wife, thinking they are protected for life with a usufruct or lease, I would say go after your lawyer, because his advice was ####.

I could not agree more. It is what I have decided to do. Its the best of a bad bunch of options - and who knows - one day we wicked farangs who want to own a bit of land in the LOS may even be permitted to do so

Thanks for all your comments, but I am still confused. Is it worth me getting an Usufruct or should I save my 28,000 Baht? If my wife and I were to get divorced, would I be able to keep the house?

The trouble is you are looking for an 'answer' that you would be able to get in England (say). You will not get that I am afraid, you will just get a set of options - none of them will really make you feel 100% happy - it is just a compromise. I have a house and land and bought them via the company route. I did this becasue I wanted to 'own' the land - which we farang cannot legally do in Thailand. You can follow this route - which I advise you not to do or you can choose one of the following legal options.

1. Usufruct - its yours for life, but this has NOT been tested in the Supreme Court and on divorce could be contested and you may lose (unlikely scenario in my opinion).

2. 30 year lease registered at the Land Registry - this HAS been tested in the Supreme Court and you would be OK if divorced. You can have another 30 years lease on top of this, but this is an informal arrangement that has NOT been tested in the Supreme Court.

The only ownership I would recommend in Thailand is to buy a condo in your own name - but you have bought a house and land - hey I like the house and land thing as well, so know why you have done this.

I am afraid it is now your decision if you want to spend the 28K baht - in your position I would do this as you are only 25 and the 30 year lease option is only valid until you are 55 -good luck

In the airport on my way back home last time a few weeks ago, I saw a Thai language book with two attached CDs and figured, "What the hel_l."

Now I'm taking a keen interest in studying Thai and want to learn as much of the language in as little time as possible.

This book will be an excellent start, as I can learn to read and write, and the Cd's have two hours of direct English-Thai translation of many simple words and phrases.

So this is a question to those who know the language to an advanced level.

What should I do after having mastered this book? How did you learn Thai?

You would probably be better off asking this question in the Thai Language forum.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showforum=43

My method was Language School in Pattaya, books (read on plane in spare time etc...), tapes, talking to people, reading Thai script at every opportunity (ie: even reading shop signs in traffic jams - something to do), sending emails in Thai Script.

A bit of 'everything' really.

I still don't consider myself fluent, but my Thai wife, who speaks no English (a few words - she knows the word for money and need new shoes/dress etc...) understands me perfectly - so that is good enough I guess.

Good luck with it.

Thanks very much for the feedback digitele and Sunbelt. The land and house are currently under a dodgy company structure so I would be unable to separate land and house in that scenario anyway I would guess ?

Thats great - thanks a lot for the help. I am dropping my wife off on that side of the outskirts Bangkok so she can meet up with some friends, so I am half way there anyway. I went to Hua Hin the first time I came to Thailand about 5 years ago - I don't suppose I will recognise it now.

I am planning to drive from Pattaya to Hua Hin and stay a couple of nights. Looks like about a 3 hour drive - 200 miles roughly - Is that about right ?

Also is there a central hotel where I can safely park my car ? I haven't been there for some years and the last time stayed at the Hilton. A bit expensive really nowadays and was booked anyway for next weekend - does anyone know of a reasonably priced hotel - up to 3000 baht a night ??

I have looked at lots of web-sites and many of the hotels I opted for were way out of town - but at least I could park easily.

I dont mind being a bit of a way out of town, walking distance, I just dont want to mess about getting taxis etc...

Thanks very much for any help.

Just trying to clarify a subtlety here. Can anyone help??

I know a 30 year lease can be set up so that the land is in the Thai owners name and the house is in the Farangs name. This means the Farang can modify the house as he pleases without recourse to the owner.

However, does a liftetime Usufruct mean both the house and land have to be in the Thai owners name or can it also be split into the Thai owning the land and Farang owning the house.

Perhaps this is a redundant question if in fact the farang with the Usufruct has total control over the land and house anyway, ie: can modify the house as he pleases. Is this the case ?

thanks for any feedback

You have done the right thing coming to this website. You will find out the truth here.

My advice to you is dont take at face value anything an estate agent nor lawyer tells you. Come to this website with anything these people tell you and ask if it is correct BEFORE you sign anything. Lots of people here will help you.

To start with you cannot own land out here it is simply illegal, but you can own the house that sits on it. You can lease the land with the Land Registry Office for a maximum of 30 years. You may be told you can do a 30+30+30 year lease. We recently discussed this less than safe option here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=131932

The safest option as everyone will tell you here - is to buy a condo IN YOUR OWN NAME - not in a company name.

Do not buy anything in a company name.

Good Luck

This is a good idea. I have been meaning to look into this in case I have to move the land/house out of my illegal company structure I currently have.

Is this the major thrust for this thread? ie: you want to buy a house and land, but cannot as you are a farang so you are looking to use a 30 year lease instead?

If this is the case then firstly, I would suggest you put the house in your name and just lease the land as a farang can own the house. That at least means you can do what you like to the house without permission from the lessor.

If this is not the case - then I will back out of this thread and wish you good luck.

After all this searching, I finally found one that is owned by a friend from the dive school that I use, which is in a company name.

A friend he is not - I have a house and land in a company name and like most Farang in this situation I have spent the last year looking at how best to modify this illegal structure. Quite simply:

- listen to the advice here

- rent for at least 6 months

- get a new 'friend'

- read some of the threads on this forum:-

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showforum=59

Good Luck you will love it out here. I envy you finding TV to ask this kind of question and getiing such good advice. I wish I had known about this forum before I bought my house!!!

Thanks for the reply. Sadly over the last year I have investigated these options.

For what it's worth, I personally choose to try and live by the same standards wherever I am in the world. Try being the key. Sure I could get away with bending rules or go unnoticed, but it's not who I am, and I'm lucky to have what I do in life, so why risk it? The most important things in life for me I don't have to bend the rules anyway.

Me too - I took advice from a lot of people before setting up the company some years ago. I have posted on this before so won't go into it all again. Funnily enough, the same groups that actualy had speakers explaining about this ‘common accepted practise’ in 2002 (ie: Pattaya Expats Club) are now some of the loudest voices against this practise!

There also used to be a massive sign up on the road into Pattaya a few years back that read “Foreigners CAN own land’

Taking a step further. In your situation, my personal choice would be: put the land in my wife's name one way or another, make a will, and get rid of the nominees ASAP.

–

Agreed - My wife has a Will, I have a Will for my assets in the UK and a separate Will for my assets in Thailand. Who would the nominees be ? - they would not have the money to buy the shares so would be as illegal as the current set-up. I would not really want any of my wife's relatives - a couple are OK - certainly not her father

2) For divorce, under Thai law your wife would be entitled to half of the assets you have in Thailand since you got married. That probably includes your company anyway

I have a pre-nup that states my wife will get 50 percent of all my assets in Thailand only. Most of my assets are off-shore. The company would actually only be shared out as a combined percentage of my stake in it and hers, or a formula based on the amount of shares we own combined – it would not include the Nominee shareholding. It’s a messy formula, but I would give her 50 percent of everything anyway – fairs fair and all that.

3) For death, make a will for your wife and you do one at the same time to ensure she is protected if anything happens to you.

Agreed - Done that. The trouble is if the marriage hits a rocky patch in the next 30 years – quite likely for most people I would say – she could easily change the Will and leave everything to her family!! Its easy to change a Will isn’t it!

On putting land in your wife's name - one way or another:

A/ company sells/transfers land to your wife and you get the property. Wind up the company. Make a lease or have a usufruct. Only risk is divorce, as mentioned she'd get 50/50 anyway, now you have property and she land = similar

To do this will cost about 300,000 Baht in my case (taxes 6 percent, new Wills, closing down company etc…). It just feels like throwing good money after bad.

Agreed I could do this - the 30 year lease has been tested in the Supreme Court, the Usufruct has not.

B/ do share transfers from nominee to your wife's name.

Then there are no nominees. Just husband and wife owning a company. Think you need 5 other shareholders with minor holdings. But majority is now Thai owned. If she has say 60 and you 40, that's again similar to 50/50. You can probably do this while thinking which is the next step to do

Sadly, its now my wife’s company. My wife, or worse than that, her rather scary father can coerce her to do anything with the assets! Its not my wife I am concerned about she is a sweety – its that father of hers. She is a good Thai girl and wants to be a good daughter as well as a good wife! Last time I put money in a bank account in her name in preparation to set up a Karaoke restaurant – in no time at all the father had 10 cows sitting in his field!!! I got the rest of the money back and learnt a valuable lesson!!!!

C/ Combination of A/ and B/ Put property in your name. Leave land in company with your wife replacing nominee. You now have 100% property, 40% land.

Not sure if B/ and C/ work fully but they have got to be better and more legal than nominees. A husband and wife owning a company above board has to be better than undated illegal papers

Then make a will.

But now its my wife’s company….leaving land in the company name and moving the house out of the company is illegal. I contacted Sunbelt about this earlier in the year and posted their reply in this thread:-

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=113021

All options are ones I'd consider. Then run by a good lawyer. I could be wrong but none of these puts you at risk of 3 years jail when in place

I don’t really think someone like me with my little house and scrub of land is going to get ‘banged up’ for 3 years. More likely I will be given 1 year to get my affairs in order – dispose of the land.

As for the good lawyer. I tend to post my questions here rather than speak to my lawyer nowadays, Sunbelt have been very helpful over the past 12 months so I would probably use them for any changes.

Like I say thanks for the feedback – its food for thought - are you one of the sad souls with this company problem or an interested observer???

Don't forget that the signed undated transfers you have are illegal. They are there to by-pass laws. While under usual circumstances they offer some "protection", don't forget it's "illegal protection". consider the following:

1) If you suddenly decide to lodge them after someone's death, but back date them, that would look extremely suspicious. Particularly if someone tried to check the transfer with the "old" (now deceased) shareholder; or if someone else who was aggrieved flagged it to the authorities that the old shareholder had died, eg someone to inherit under a will flagged the timing. Someone who would inherit under a will has done nothing wrong and has nothing to lose in challenging you.

2) If you have good relations, then the person who has signed undated, would sign anyway at the appropriate time. It is only in difficult times, or times of disagreement that you would tend to have an "advantage" or "protection" with undated docs. Again the nominee could flag to the authorities that these were held as undated and unsigned. Maybe it's difficult to prove, and both parties are equally fraudulent. (Penalties are BTW the same for both, including up to 3 years jail). While there is some incentive for the nominee not to expose you to the authorities, imagine a desperate nominee with nothing to lose, or someone well connected. All they need to do is raise the issue and you are both in trouble. Someone with nothing to lose could say they were "co-erced", "didn't understand" and may get away with it. Someone with connections might get away with it. Will you?

My advice. Don't use nominees it's illegal. Change your structure to something legal.

I agree with all you say. The point is I made a mistake 4 years ago (like many others over the years), setting up this company to buy the land and house. I have consdered the 'legal' options you mention of 30 year lease or Usufruct to continue living here for the foreseeable future.

Both of these have their drawbacks. Including:

1. I cannot sell and move elsewhere if I want to - as in fact I am only a glorified tenant.

2. Divorce is possible over the next 30 years.

3. Death of my wife is possible over the next 30 years.

I would not want to continue living here in either of cases 2 or 3.

Sure in case 3 if my wife dies, then she could 'will' the land to me - more likely it would go to her family - groan!

In the case of 2, well I may just as wll pack up and leave anyway.

So looking at all the scenarios, the company route is still the best route for me.

I have total control over the land and house.

As for 'illegal'. I have come to realise more and more that 'illegal' in Thailand is not the same as we farangs are used to.

Let's face it, all this fuss over the FBA is just a smokescreen.

Anytime over the last year, the government could have picked on just one Thai Law office that has these Nominee companies and raided it. It could simply have chosen one office at random - or to get 'real bang for the buck' they could have raided a chum of Thaksin.

See the headlines 'Crackdown on Thaksin Accomplices' - it hasn't happened.

To my knowledge there has not been one investigation of anyone like me. I am sure if there had been then the flamers and 'I told you so brigade' would have been out in force.

So for now I think it is best - and I would advise anybody else in my situation - to wait and see and continue learning about all the issues involved.

But hey - its a personal decision and I fortunately followed the golden rule in Thailand of 'not bringing more into Thailand than I can afford to walk away from', so I have great sympathy for those who are in a worse position than me in all this.

Thanks for that info Dr Naam, I will bear this in mind and discuss it next time I am at the lawyer's office.

[no new shareholder can take over. the share certificates and the blank share transfer document are in YOUR hands and YOU appoint the new shareholder.

Thanks for that Dr Naam. That's actually encouraging news.