schlemmi

15 minutes ago, elviajero said:

No. They are considered the Possessor. 

 

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

Yes.

 

No. They are considered the Possessor.

 

The Immigration Act is not designating who the "house-master" is. It is simply confirming that whoever the house-master is, “in accordance with the law on people act", they are responsible to report. 

 

The owner is always responsible, however, they don’t always live in the property, or are named as house-master, or know about foreign guests. The reason “Possessor” is included in the act is as a catch all backup in case the owner isn’t living in the property and no house-master is nominated in the TB. 

 

The act gives responsibility to three separate entities; Owner, House-master, or Possessor. Based on your wrong understanding they simply need to specify its down to the House-master. However, if they did that the owner or anyone else responsible for the property is off the hook.

Please look to the original thai text in the people registration act an read it carefully to understand it. I say the thai text abd not any translation.

56 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Yes I'm aware of that. Foreigners in a Yellow TB are listed as either an occupier or in some cases the House-master.

 

My point was that a foreigner is not considered a House-master just because they live in the property. The House-master is a named person.

If the named person is away, not reachable or can not do his duties in this case the person taking care of the house is considered as the housemaster. This is written in the peoples registration act. 

You are right, a foreigner living in a property is not autmaticaly considered as housmaster.

It is as follows:

No book, Housemaster is the person has the duty to take care of the property.

Book, but no housemaster noted. Same as above.

Book,has housemaster, and this person is still alive reachable and can do his duty. Housemaster == person in the book.

Book, has housemaster but he is out of order and  can not do the duties, than the person taking care  of the property is considered as the housemaster.

1 minute ago, Max69xl said:

How many expats have the yellow house book? It's not mandatory. 

Shure, not all expats have the name in a yellow housebook and it is not mandatory too.

From the expats i know about it is 100%.

If an expat has its name in a yellow housebook and is noted as housemaster, then he is a housemaster in the same way as a thai housemaster.

17 minutes ago, Max69xl said:

Petrr

 

Peterw42 just explained the blue housebook for thai nationals. 

Is i read and understand peters post, my feeling was he is not aware that people in the yellow book may be in there as housemastets too, because he is writing only from the blue book.

17 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Not really. Foreigners (with temporary stay permits) are not the house-master.

 

The house-master (Jao Baan) will be named in tha Tabian Baan. Anyone that is not the owner or named as house-master is considered the Possessor.

 

The definition in S.4 is to clarify that the house-master (if one exists) is responsible for reporting regardless of their capacity.

Foteigners with temporary stay permits can be the housemaster in the yelow housebook as well as thais or prople with residencepermit in the blue book.

39 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Maybe I can explain this another way.

 

Only Thais go in blue books, a Thai can only be in one bluebook, as housemaster or as an occupant. If a thai person is renting out a property to others they are no longer in that housebook, they are in the housebook where they now live.

 

Unless you are sharing a house with a Thai person, they are not in the housebook, as housemaster or occupant, they dont live there.

 

If you rent a house or condo, and no thais are live in that house, there is no thai person listed as the housemaster.

 

Some Thais may be still listed in the bluebook as living at a property even though they dont, but even then they can only be listed in one book, if they have or manage multiple rental properties they can still only be in one.

 

99% of foreigners renting a property, the housemaster is blank, as it should be because no Thais live at that property.

 

Its no use saying the housemaster, as written in the bluebook , is responsible for TM30, there isnt one.

Im have my name in the yellow book an is as housemaster too.

I never said a hosmaster listed in the blue book, because the color does no matter because the housemaster may be in the yellow book as well.

By the way, not only thais ho to the blue book. Foreigners with residencpermit go there too.

12 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Yes, that is correct, that is why I corrected your statement:

 

"the person with status Housemaster.

This is in each and every case the person indicated as housemaster in the housebook."

 

Not sure why you keep posting in Thai, there is actually a forum rule that asks not to unless its the language forum. 

I post some thai words because we are talking about thai law. This law is written in thai as the only  language.

All translations are totally useless in the case you have to claryfy e.g. at the court. If you want to find the exact reading of the law, then it could be helpfull if you have a few thai words you may google for.

And if you read the original thai versions of both the immi act and the people registration act then you will understand that if there is a hosemaster registered in the records of the ampoe and this person is reachable, that only this perspn is the housemaster in the point of view of the law. Both the immi law and other laws where a housemaster plays a roole.

31 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Housemaster is defined in the immigration act, its not in "each and every case" the person listed in the blue book. its more often then not someone who isnt the housemaster in the bluebook, or even entered in the blue book.

 

“House Master” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

 

I regularly do TM30s for 3 properties, where there is no housemaster in the blue book, the bluebook is blank.

 

 

The housemaster definition in art. 4 immi act is a 100% copy of the definition of housemaster in the "people registration act". 

Additionally, at the end of this definition it says "... according to the people registration act."

That is: Housemaster is exactly that what is defined im the "people registration act." 

This "people registration act" additionaly defines who the housemaster is if there is no registerd housemaster, or the registerd housemaster is away and no longer reachable.

As in your case where is no housemaster in the blue book it could be one  in the yellow book. If not, than the person taking care of the house counts as housemaster.

If the houses are rented out and in the case there is no registered housemaster or the housmaster is no longer reachable, then the renter has the roole as housemaster.

Sourcees:

 พระราชบัญญัติคนเข้าเมือ  (immigration act)

พระราชบัญญัติการทะเบียนราษฎร (people registratipn act)

2 hours ago, Peterw42 said:

Have a look at a TM30 form, nowhere on the form do you say which one you are, you simply sign the form as owner, housemaster or possessor (you dont state which one you are, you just sign the form).

 

 

Most immigration offices dont care less who they get a TM30 from, or who they fine, as per the immigration act, they define anyone as housemaster.

Look to the thai text. It says the person with status Housemaster.

This is in each and every case the person indicated as housemaster in the housebook. If this house is rented out to another person than all the persons are registered im the actual  housebook have to move out of the book into the book where they stay now.

Than the tenant can let the Ampoe add his name in the housebook as status housemaster.

According to the act regulating the housebook stuff: If the housmaster is not reachable than the person taking care of the house is the housemaster.

1 hour ago, Xaos said:

Tourist, Visa Non-B and some others are exempted.

2 hours ago, smedly said:

not a bad idea

Could extend this denial of service attac to all locations by doing it by postal mail. If they not return the slip within 14 days file coplaints.

5 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

I have seen it called the Civil Registration Act in English but have been unable to find an English translation of this law. The Thai text is here:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ZsiihhtkjhLCf-j4kS04XUxOx9N-z5JN

Yes, this the act about the housebook etc...

And it is the act refered to by art.4 of the immigration act too.

On the 2nd page at line number 10 you will find the definition for housemaster. The line starts with "เจ้าบ้าน"....

Please compare it with thai version of art.38 of the immigration act.

1 hour ago, Peterw42 said:

Is there a "law on people act" , I always thought it is a poorly translated reference to the constitution.

Its a poor translation to the citicens registration act.  Its where all around the housebook is ruled.

51 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

The owner (your son) could change the blue book at the local ampher.  The ex owner of the property (your ex) doesnt control who is in the blue book, she no longer has anything to do with the property. Go to the local ampher and say the person listed in the bluebook as housemaster, no longer owns the property or lives there, and she will be removed.

 

Housemaster for immigration matters isnt strictly the house master in the bluebook, its a broader term for possessor of the property.

 

Section 4 “House Master” means any persons who is the chief possessor of a house , whether in the capacity of owner , tenant , or in any other capacity whatsoever , in accordance with the law on people act.

The section 4 of the immi act is a verbatime copy from the "law on people act".

The law of people act defines further more the case if the housemaster is not reachable.

You should go to the Ampur and clear the situation with them.

6 hours ago, Martyp said:

I don’t doubt that he means the owner of the condo or house. What is continually not addressed is when the landlord refuses to file and that the “possessor” is allowed to file. Since the foreigner depends on the TM30 to get an extension the entire responsibility falls on the foreigner. On top of that there is no policy and effort to enforce compliance with the landlord. There is no consequence to the landlord for not filing.

 

 I am fortunate that my landlord takes TM30’s seriously, has registered for an online account, paid the initial fine, and insists on filing herself when I report I have traveled.

This is missleading translation.  More close to the original thai wording would be:

The housemaster, tho owner or posesor of a livingplace or the hotelmanager. 

There 3 different groups of people concerned

The owner or the posessor of the residence the original text is talking about, not referes to the residence where a housmaster is available. 

34 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

100s get fined everyday for not doing a TM30 when they return home from a hotel stay, the hotel where you stayed prior cannot update a tm30 report for where you live after leaving the hotel. Thats how immigration knows you haven't reported when you got home, the system still says you are in a hotel.

They also tried to fine me. I just denied to pay and promised to discuss this issue with the next higher administrations level. 

For those interested in I upload the letter I wrote. Only my name, address and the related immigration office is overwritten.

Furthermore I gave this document to the 2nd superintendent of a immigration I know about. He said, ok no reason to fine. 

TheDocumentAnonymized.pdf

4 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

100s get fined everyday for not doing a TM30 when they return home from a hotel stay, the hotel where you stayed prior cannot update a tm30 report for where you live after leaving the hotel. Thats how immigration knows you haven't reported when you got home, the system still says you are in a hotel.

As you can read in my post very clear, I stated if a person stays in a hotel e.g. a tourist an start to travel around an than returns to his 1st hotel where he is still registered as guest...

I was not talking about a person returning to its permanent residence in TH.

Even more I not understand why some members can talk about the how and why it is as it is, by explaining it as they would know exactly how the internal data processing of the immigration works. Thats all guesswork. 

3 minutes ago, sumrit said:

Different Immigration Offices have different interpretations but, for many of them:

 

If you've filed a TM30 at your permanent residence that's even more permanent than booking and paying for a hotel room for a few weeks.

 

If you then go from your permanent residence and stay in a hotel in another area that hotel files a TM30 which replaces the one you had previously filed from your home. When you subsequently visit you local Immigration Office THEY HAVE THE HOTEL YOU STAYED AT as your most recent TM30 on file. You are liable to be fined for not updating your TM30.

 

It's the same process as you moving hotels. The Hotel 1 TM30 is removed and replaced by the subsequent one you checked into. 

You can be shure, I am and you also are not liable to be fined to not updating via tm30. They could fine the hotel, not you not me.

1 hour ago, sumrit said:

Problem with that idea is that as soon as you go to 'hotel 2' they will file a new TM30 which take preference over 'hotel 1'. That process will continue for hotels 3,4,5 etc. You might still be registered as a guest in hotel 1 but as far as the current TM30's go hotel 1 is now part of the TM30 history, it's not where you're currently registered as staying, the last hotel you registered at is. 

How can you know that. Did you make the software or do work at the immigration so you may know the internals. Or its just your feeling?

Despite this, it was not the question. The question was how many tm30 the hotel would make and how many tm30 the hotel has to make.

5 hours ago, Isaanlawyers said:

Foreigners have to register TM30 only ONCE (and not tourists) and after, it is the duty of the Thai landlord. If you leave in Thailand for a while and never registered TM30, you will be fine as a foreigner. I believe it is between 800 to 2,000 baht.

Please explain when and where have foreigners to register using form tm30.

Please explain why a foreigner once registered by using form tm30 this duty is transferred over to the landlord.

Please explain why the tourists are exempted to register by using tm30.

11 minutes ago, sumrit said:

I do understand that, as I'm sure others do as well. But as an example of our situation this year:

When my daughter and family came in April, they were only here for ten days and visited Korat and Bangkok as well as stopping at our house. That meant we had to spend three mornings out of the ten in Si Racha immigration. Not ideal when they're only on a short Trip.

As I've got a friend and both my sons coming in individual trips over the next few months doing on line TM30's each time would be a lot more practical.

I did spend time checking things out, then did the on line application in June, which I thought would give plenty of time to complete.

But my mate arrives in just over a week and will spend time visiting family with his wife as well as staying with us in between. It will probably mean 5-6 visits over the month to immigration just to file his stays with us. On line would take five minutes. 

Just a simple example. If i woul visit thailand and stay at a hotel for two month. I check in and pay the bill in advanve. The hotel files the tm30 to inform the immigration about my arrival. I stay there a couple of days and found i shuld travel around a bit. Do so and stay at different hotels and return to the one i payed for two month already anf still registerd as guest. A short while later i start travelling again but now out out of thailand and returning to the same hotrl as before where iam still registered  as guest.

Homany tm30 will the hotel do. Howml many tm30 has the hotel to do?

7 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Why do they have to report over and over again unless they frequently leave and re-enter the Country.

It takes 15 minutes or less to file online, is that such a hardship.

Regardless if you travel inide thailand or make a trip outside and come back to the same adress, there is no need to re-report because the adres is alrrady known by the immigration database. Whats happened actually is, that some immigrations force the housmasters to re-report, isnt it? 

Yes it is a hatdship. But if you have fun with it, please do it. There are lot of us not happy with this kind of nonsense.

The problem is not that the housemasters not want to report using TM30. The problem is that they not want to report over and over again the same person as this particular person still stays at the same address. The immigrations database already know the address, so no reason to report again. It does not help in any kind to suppress criminality. 

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

No, 'Head of Household' (Jiao Baan) in the house book, is usually the person responsible for taking care of the book and registering others living at that registered address, with the local Amphur under the Civil Registration Act. The house book is not proof of ownership.

A Thai can only be registered in one house book, regardless of how many properties they may own.

 

Under section 38 of the Immigration Act, the persons responsible to file a TM30 are;

Note, not the Head of Household as defined under the Civil Registration Act.

 

Under section 4 of the Immigration Act, the House Master is defined as;

Your confusing 'Head of Household' as defined under one Act, with 'House Master' as defined by another Act. 

The defonition of เจ้าบ้าน in the immi act is just a copy of thr def. in the civil reg. act.

Post the thai words because the thai law is complete written in thai. This is the only that counts. The english translations can not be used at thr court etc. They have only expainatory caracter.