Charma

Thanks to all for the info and the questions raised.

Someone posted a tel no for the HWP in another thread. I picked that up. Will call them tomorrow before deciding on the via Surat/ Via Ranong routes.

KBM, LIK, did one of you travel via Ranong a few days ago? No probs on that route?

I would be grateful if you could update this thread on the state of the route once you have completed it. Me and the family are heading back the other way in a few days and I am sure others would be grateful for a reliable update from yourself or any other member completing the trip.

Thanks for the kind words NIO....after reading your response I believe I will stay here where regardless of people's nationalities we have slippers cars and even more. I think i'll leave Thailand to you and those who think like you. Sorry all for the inconvenience my thread may have caused.

Thaivisa, actually all internet forums, are full of bitter people like that pardsie, who i'm convinced are either 1. teenagers, or 2. pitiful old men with the mental equivalent of a teenager trolling the internet. Why anyone would gain satisfaction of tearing others down on an anonymous forum is beyond me. Just ignore them pardsie, and welcome to thaivisa

Regarding your post, I don't think it has much to do with being Thai actually, and there's no reason for anyone here to defend a random girl they don't know just because she's Thai. I've had a couple girlfriends before that similarly barely reacted when I got them gifts, or actually to anything much at all... and it never turned out well...it usually means they're self-absorbed. Expressing graditute is a universal show of respect, no matter what culture.

Have to agree with Svenn here. Don't allow the rather sad individuals that you will find here to put you off the site. Some just seem to see any post as an opportunity to vent their spitefulness. I also think that there is some cultural element to emotional displays. I notice it most when arriving or departing at family get togethers. In the west these are generally all hugs and kisses and bouts of excitment, but find in Thailand that they are are much more muted affairs. It is natural for your son to want to buy gifts for his new wife and I would not be overly concerned about the polite and muted response. As others have said, it is much more important to consider how she treats and respects your son.

Welcome to TV!

The relative merits of the case on either side here are really besides the point. The damage has been done. Imagine a couple or a family sitting down with the holiday brochures or browsing the internet trying to decide which beach holdiay to book. As they look through the Phuket hotels, not only will they now be considering the high prices due to the exchange rate, but that story about the mother being jailed may just come to mind. It would be enough for many to turn to the next page and go to Bali.

This damage will not last forever, but as someone said before, a silly little incident like this would have done more damage than the multi million baht campaigns couild ever make up for.

I have been married for over 5 year now with my Thai wife. I personally have Dutch nationality, but because I lived more years in Belgium than in The Netherlands we often applied for my wives Schengen Visa with the Belgium embassy. ......

And yes recently my wife received a 2 YEAR MULTIPLE ENTRY VISA. (Off course still restricted for 90 days each time we use it).

Right now, I am enjoying some holidays back in France. And my wife - thai - got 2 months ago a multiple entry (90 days) schengen visa valid up to 6 months before the end of her thai passport: 4 years something.

I had no idea about that, and did not even asked for something special.

Where did you apply for that visa? I would certainly be interested in one of those. My Thai wife and I have been living in the UK for over five years now and the only reason we have not travelled much to Europe is the hassle of visas. One like yours would be worth it. Appreciate to know who issued it and what the conditions were.

it shoot blank people, make allot of sound, but it's blank.

The BBC and CNN have shown close up footage of soldiers loading their magazines - they were definately not blanks.

I'm greatly worried. I've read a number of posts in this forum where people clearly advocated the use of deadly force against protesters.

First I don't remember PAD opponents EVER making such request during PAD protest.

More disturbing is the fact that those posts are allowed to be published.

There's a not-so-fine line between protesting and hooliganism/rioting. There's nothing wrong with banding together with people and voicing your beliefs/concerns about something. There's something very wrong with lobbing molotov cocktails, hijacking LPG trucks and flat out attacking unarmed people with a mob mentality. This kind of behavior can only be countered with superior force, or better said, suppression. Nobody (sane) here wants to see casualties or injuries, but at this point it's unavoidable.

The soldiers and police are out there protecting US, let's remember that.

Could you please let me know when history vindicated the use of live ammunition on a crowd ?

On a personnal note, the fact that you use the word "suppression", therefore coldly advocating the killing of human people, makes me sick !

I suppose you advocate the use of molotov cocktails and IEDs then? No one said anything about firing wildly into a crowd of people, and that's not what's happening, but those soldiers are trained to protect themselves and others. To my knowledge, mostly teargas and water trucks are being used, along with rubber bullets and warning shots. Lethal force should be a last resort, but if 2 red shirts die as a result of a standoff when they threaten to blow up an entire living complex with a gigantic tank full of liquid petroleum, then no one can realistically disagree with such a course of action. Better them than hundreds of innocents, including women and children. Do you want to be a martyr for their cause? Imagine if that living complex was the one you lived in.

Live ammunition is used frequently in history on individuals that threaten the lives and safety of others, both by militaries and police forces all over the world.

BBC footage clearly shows troops firing directly into crowds of people at more than one location. I would guess that someone somewhere has given an order to do this as it did not look like a panic reaction from the troops concerned.

Try these guys:

http://www.northernmonk.co.uk/home/

They are UK based, but can get a website up very quickly for £250

Use this link to see if you can find it on the map

http://www.samui.org/map/maplarge.htm

Well, if she is married to this other chap , she can do a few things:-

1 - wiat until her visa is about to expire an dthen go back to Thai an dtry to apply again as the posts above are correct in that she will not be able to renew this visa.

2- if she married hy man in Thai go there an dpay a lawyer to get a divorce

3 - did ishe sign in Thai or the Uk?

40. If she didn't sign in the UK or register the marriage at the embassy then she can pay a lawyer to get her a quickie divorce. East to do. Mt mate marries a Thai girl, was m3essed around an dthen divorced her at the sam eplace where the marriage was registered - amphur office wherever and it took about 10 mins and was free. he was given a Thai certificate - like a Thai marriage certificate but not with red but blackborder. She can them apply with this new bloke.

It will not be easy fro her an dI would hazzard a guess she will be refused.

I also find it hard to type with the gardening gloves on!

Get in touch with the scouse, either via PM or through the Davies Khan sponsored link above. If you are serious about this it is best to get the very best advice you can.

Thought I would post an update to this issue as it will be useful for many in the future.

As mentioned previously, I referred the Mum in question to our very own Scouse who took on the case on her behalf. he reviewed the file and agreed with myself and other posters here that this was more a case of a botched application rather than a poor decision by the embassy.

A new application was completed with the assistance of scouse, with proper evidence being compiled and submitted. He also put together a covering letter that addressed the issues with the previous application and interview of grandma etc.

The great news is that I got a call from the mum this morning who was aboslutely thrilled that the new application had just been granted. I also got a call from The Scouse to confirm this.

The lesson here is to never try and do these things on the cheap using the many unknown agents that abound around the embassy in Thailand. Unless you really know what you are doing, the best bet is to get good and sound advice from people like scouse who are OISC registered (for those that do not know, Scouse is part of Davies Khan who are also forum sponsors).

A very big thank you to scouse who has made a very unhappy Mum a very, very happy one. Her son will be flying over at the end of the month and starting school at the begininning of October.

Yet another urban legend that sucks in the gullible! This one has been doing the rounds for years. As Boo has stated, you are free to fly (virtually) any flag you wish in the UK. The reason many people do not do this (unless it is because of some sporting/royal/military) occasion is that generally only one UK political party in the UK use the union and St Georges flags as a symbol - the British National Party. From reading many of the posts here, I see many would fit in rather well with this party.

Dear Charma,

Step 1

Get a copy of the whole application put in . Scouser or anyone else will need to see exactly what information, statements, evidence was provided to the ECO.

Step 2

If as I suspect it was a f'd up application from the begining further representations as to the true state of affairs may result in a favourable review.

Step 3

If it was completely f'd up consider making a new application which satisfies the Immigration rule rather than appealling.

Step 4

Appeal and wait for a hearing date in about February 2009.

The rule is Rule 297 go to the BIA website click on law and policy click on rules and there you have it :ose his is the rule

"297.

(e) one parent is present and settled in the United Kingdom or being admitted on the same occasion for settlement and has had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing; or

As far as sole responsibility is concerned Pliny you are 100% correct Emmanuel is the starting point.

"The phrase sole responsibility is not to be interpreted literally, literal interpretation would defeat all claims Emmanuel 1972 IMM AR69. In Sioley 1972 IMM AR it was considered that the mother who left her son but had sole financial responsibility and being continuously consulted about the childs schooling and upbringing had sole responsibility. It was contended that the source and degree of financial support of a child and the mother’s genuine interest were relevant. In Martin 1972 IMM AR71 responsibility could be delegated to a relative. The more relevant to this particular appeal is that once sole responsibility has been established, there is no requirement to assess as to how sole long the parent with sole responsibility has held it. In Namaju 2001 INLR the tribunal having dismissed an appeal whereby they thought that mother who had had sole responsibility for 2½ months insufficient to satisfy paragraph 297(1)e. The Court of Appeal allowed the appeal stating the relevant issue under that paragraph as simply whether the parent had sole responsibility for the child and the length of time sole responsibility has been held might only be a relevant factor as to whether the parent actually had sole responsibility. Once it was established the length of time was not a relevant consideration. "

I make the point of including a submission I would use at appeals ( above ) because if your Thai Immigration Consultant does not know that stuff then they HAVE NO BUSINESS advising on Immigration Law.

Richard

ps if your friend wants some reasurance I am happy to chat to her or her husband

Thanks very much for the very relevant info. It is clear that she falls within the precedent that you quoted and even clearer that her original application totally failed to provide the information that could have so easily seen the application succeed. I have been contacted by Scouser and will be putting the mum in touch with him soon. Thanks again for highlighting the relevant legislation and case law.

TIT - this is thailand..... pay peanuts > get monkeys > all that malarky.

.......Its like hotels and resorts...... most of the grils in the Amari are university graduates - and everything in the Amari is to a western standard - from the bed linen to butter on your toast - the girls enter on the promise of promotion junior staff>senior staff>trainee manager>assistent manager>manager and after that they are trained professionals with professional expereince..... go down to the 2000-3000 baht range everything approaches a western standard, though never quite achieves it..... really its only the manager speaks more than a handful of english and is probably the owners son or daughter, with high school education, the toast is never quite right, but its edible, and all round it is satisfactory, but not what you'd expect in London..... then go down to the 1000 baht or less catagory - better off sticking with the rice and hopefully you have a thai wife / or girlfriend to communicate with staff....... the manager is probably the brother or sister of a semi-sucessful thai busniness man or gangster - speaks good but not perfect english - and the rest of the staff are basically anyone they can get to work for crappy money that looks presentable and can say "hello, how are you"

Note - For me, personally, the latter is perfectly acceptable, the middle class is nice, but the top rung is a bit OTT.... I'm the type that likes to get good value - if it is acceptable to my wife (she's thai) then I am happy..... thai standards, thai prices, thai expectations > TIT.

Sorry - I've rambled on a bit too much.

As I was reading down the threads I immediately thought of the Amari, but you beat me to it. I have used many hotels in Thailand but the staff at the various Amaris are just the best. I have NEVER had even one interaction that has not left me impressed with the way they conduct business. This has to be the result of the right rewards and the right training. To suggest that poor working practice is simply the result of your nationality is tosh. Recruit the wrong people in any country and the same results will follow. The same goes for pay and training. Also, to simply suggest that Thai people are lazy is inaccurate and deeply offensive. So many Thais are busting their balls for a pittance all over this country. You can find bad service anywhere in the world. It is the result of poor management and not down to the nationality or race of the workforce.

Charma

I have done a little research here and ploughed through some Tribunal judgements.

Essentially, the mother has to demonstrate that she has had sole responsibility for all the major decisions regarding the child's upbringing viz. education, housing, medical care etc. etc. The fact that she left the child in the care of the grandmother to live elsewhere is irrelevant provided that she can demonstrate that she has contributed to the support of the child both financially and otherwise. The mother's absence does not constitute abandonment in this case and so it cannot be argued by the visa officer that she had abdicated responsibility for the child.The upbringing of the child by the grandmother was clearly at the direction of the mother in this case and could easily be evidenced by remittances back to the grandmother and possibly sworn testimony from the Puu Yai in the moo baan. Presumably there have been visits home which could also be evidenced. The fact that the father has never been on the scene should have made this case relatively clear cut.

The test in establishing sole responsibility and its principles were founded in the Emmanuel case which remains the main authority as far as I can see and the mother falls fair and square within its ambit.

Lord knows how the agent represented this application but frankly it should have been a breeze.

Not to worry, I'm sure it will all end well relatively soon.

Pliny

Thanks for digging that out. As far as I am aware she has visited the child every year for around a month at a time. She pays all the bills and is in constant communication by phone. She has also sent considerable money back to the family to buy land for them. My guess is that this was not evidenced sufficiently on the application and that maybe the grandmother made some unhelpful statements during the interview about who had responsibility for the child. The first paragraph of the decision merely states that they had been given opportunity to provide documents etc and that they knew whats docs were expected. A lesson for all here. Let's hope that the correct documentation to prove the mother's involvement can be submitted retrospectively through an appeal.

[*]she did not have sole responsibility for the child's

[*]The childs circumstances in Thailand not being exceptional

Not exceptional? I am not sure how separation from your mother can be classed as anything, but exceptional.

[*]The mother's action were the cause of the separation, no evidence of family life or contact therefore refusal of visa does not interfere with right to family life under article 8 of Humans Rights Act.

It is not an unusual process to leave a child in Thailand whilst the mother settles abroad, sorting future responsibilities whilst the child is left in the care of family members, but she would have needed to show proof of contact, phone records, letters, photos and support both financial and emotional.

You're contradicting yourself with these two answers. Exceptional implies unusual and as you say, it isn't at all unusual in Thailand for a child to be brought up by the grandmother.

The fact that there is "no evidence of family life or contact" does suggest the agency screwed up the application. It's not surprising the visa application was refused if the child is 9 years old and there's no evidence of contact for eight years.

I am not sure who is contradicting themselves here, as you are referring to answers from two different people. The "Exceptional" circumstances was UK visas referring to the needs of the child (medical, housing etc) as against others living in Thailand. The "not unusual" comment was from Moss referring to the fact that many others have done this in the past. It is clear however that the application did not have sufficient evidence of the mother's continued input into the child's life. The grandmother was also interviewed and probably had no idea how to respond to the questions that were put. If anything this case highlights the need for people to get good advice at the outset and not to rely on "home made" attempts or dubious agency touts.

[*]she did not have sole responsibility for the child's

Charma, has she got sole custody papers? I believe so. She left the father before the child was born and I do not believe he has had contact since

[*]The application not being made at the earliest opportunity

There does appear to be quite a time gap, but have shown the reasons why. She told me the reasons why, but this may not have been covered properly in her application

[*]The childs circumstances in Thailand not being exceptional

Not exceptional? I am not sure how separation from your mother can be classed as anything, but exceptional. On reading the decision, it appears they appear to be referring to no need for medical treatment, schooling, accommodation, electricity and water (all things provided for by the mother sending funds to grandma). There seems to be no allowance for the emotional need of the child or mother to be together.

[*]The mother's action were the cause of the separation, no evidence of family life or contact therefore refusal of visa does not interfere with right to family life under article 8 of Humans Rights Act.

It is not an unusual process to leave a child in Thailand whilst the mother settles abroad, sorting future responsibilities whilst the child is left in the care of family members, but she would have needed to show proof of contact, phone records, letters, photos and support both financial and emotional. I agree and can understand her decision to wait for an established home and worklife in a new country before bringing him over. They appear to be blaming her for the decision to move AND then to wait before applying. This may again be a result of a poorly presented case by them and the agent. She certainly did not "abandon" the child and has always talked over the years about getting him over to the UK.

But the first step as already stated several times is to listen to the advice of the Scouser. I am awaiting his return and hope that he checks TV!

Moronic post and unmoronic responses deleted.

How anybody could find reason to post puerile nonsense on this thread is beyond me, just stay elsewhere if you can't help yourself. I found that quite difficult to believe also - and I could not even understand what the post even meant!

Moss

Thanks for the input Moss. I have tried to answer in red your points to the best of my current understanding.

I have PM'd Scouser in the hope that I can link the mother to his firm and get them back on a better strategy to deal with this.

Just remembered. I think the Scouser in in Thailand and i think he might be flying back today or tomorrow, so don't worry if he doesn't reply straight away.

Thanks - someone PM'd me that they thought he was on the way back, so I am pursuading the couple to hang on a bit before they respond to the decision. As I said above, I think they could make a mistake by responding without really good advice and maybe make things worse. I am guessing they have a little time before any limit on appeal applies?

The mother must appeal on behalf of the child against the decision now.

Next step, instruct a competent lawyer immediately. The Scouser has a reputation for efficiency and effectiveness and is an approved OISC practitioner and sponsors the forum under his company DaviesKhan.

From what you have said about the refusal grounds it seems the Visa section has over reached themselves in concluding that the grandmother has suborned the mother's role. Sole responsibility under the immigration rules lies with either surviving parent or with another at their direction.The grandmother has been charged by the mother with the the care of the child seemingly for the past 8 years in the absence of the father. Thus she has exercised sole responsibility but for reasons not disclosed by the visa section they have chosen not to accept this. It occurs to me that they have screwed up but the presentation by the agent may have obscured things somewhat.

Instruct DaviesKhan as per the banner. The case as you portray it is relatively clear cut and may not even need to go to appeal but could be resolved through robust representations by someone of the Scouse's calibre.

Thanks very much for the very informative reply. I have PM'd Scouser in the hope that I can link the mother to his firm and get them back on a better strategy to deal with this. I agree that it seems as though a poor briefing by the agent to the mother may have lead to this and I really hope that the possible remedy in your post is realistic for them. Thanks again for the reply!

Tell him to contact TheScouser. Trust me (through my own experience) if there is a way, The Scouser will find it.

This is what happens when using agencies in Thailand, it's like getting a Gardener to sort out your central heating. Always use an OISC registered person, they are bound by ethics and a code of practise.

I think you are right Mr B. I told her of my suspicions when the "agency" asked her for more money to reapply for the visa.

Hi Charma,

What was the reason for refusal ? if you dont mind me asking.

I hate storys like this, its foooking wrong, dosnt stop them bringing all these polish over though does it, most of them dont work, dont wanna work, bring all there family over, claiming benifits for them all, new house, mobility car, its bull s**t.

Then your friends wife grafts, works hard, wants to be part of England etc but cant bring her flesh and blood over, this country has gone t**s up.

Scotty

The gist of the refusal appears to be that basically she left it too long and it was her fault for moving to UK that they were separated. They state that the grandmother has been caring for the child up to now and there seems to be no reason that this should not continue. The fact that she has been providing virtually ALL the financial support for her son AND the family over the years does not seem to matter.

I agree that this seems a crazy decision, but I do know a lot of Poles that are very hard working too! Most of the unemployed people on benefits I know are brits!

P.S. - No jokes about "Poles working hard" please!

I am posting this topic on behalf of a very good friend of our family, who has just heard from UK Visas that her request to bring her nine year old son to join her in the UK has been refused.

She has lived in the UK with her English husband for the past 8 years. During that time her son from a previous marriage has been looked after in Thailand by the grandparents. She has worked relentlessly in the uk, finding employment, sending money back home to support her child and studying hard to gain vocational qualifications. She has now achieved her educational aims and is in steady employment in the care industry. She makes trips to Thailand every year to see her son. She felt that the time was right to bring her son to the UK, as they could make the financial and practical arrangements to take care of him here.

They applied through the UK embassy in BKK, using a local agent (Thai) for advice/help. I am not sure that this was good help because they have just been refused a visa citing such things as:

• she did not have sole responsibility for the child's upbringing as this was done by the grandmother (inc. emotional support, well being and an abiding interest in childs well being.
  
• The application not being made at the earliest opportunity
  
• The childs circumstances in Thailand not being exceptional
  
• The mother's action were the cause of the separation, no evidence of family life or contact therefore refusal of visa does not interfere with right to family life under article 8 of Humans Rights Act.
  

She is really upset over this unexpected outcome and her husband is very angry about the situation. Before they give more money to this Thai agent, or decide to write off to the embassy, I though they might benefit from some advice/pointers from the good people here at TV.

She is a really hard working and caring individual and has been a great friend to my wife for the past five years. We can all make judgements about her decision to wait to bring her son over, but I don't think she deserves the stress that this decision has caused her.

Any advice on the best way forward for her would be gratefully received.

Good Karma indeed - Methinks this is the result of all the good deeds you have done Mobi, including that collection for the kids home you organised a couple of years ago. Time to get another one going I think!

Glad to hear you are (relatively) OK.

Bangkok Post