JHicks

47 minutes ago, Oxx said:

2 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I put Space Bar into Google translate and the lady  came back with SA-PACE BAH.

 

Did you then try searching Google for "'สเปซบาร์"? Top results (for me, at least)  "บริษัท สเปซ บาร์ จำกัด", "Drunk Space Bar", "Spacebar Design Studio", "SO SOUL SPACE BAR", "Space bar salaya" &c..  Not a lot there about keyboards.  Again, it shows the perils of believing Google for English-Thai translation.

I think that's just because they usually write space bar or spacebar rather than transliterating. See here for example, where you can learn to use "Energy Dance Mode".

We've already got เว้นวรรค courtesy of KeeTua's wife. Strictly speaking I think that's the space itself (but in English, would you say "press the question mark key"? It's really just a quirk of English that we say "space bar" as often as we do).

If you really want a word in there that means "key" or "bar" or whatever, I believe the original Thai terms were คานเคาะวรรค or คานเว้นวรรค or คานเคาะ. See here for example - there may have been other variations too. I'm not sure how widely used those terms are now though.

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

11 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

They should really update this. I don't think any Thais really pronounce ก as K. I wonder if whoever did  this could really speak or read English properly. 

 

The Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS) is not intended as a pronunciation guide, not for Thais, not for English speakers, not for speakers of any other language.

 

It is important always to note the difference between a pronunciation guide and a transcription system.

I'd describe it as more of a spectrum. At one extreme you have pure transliteration systems that only care about representing the original characters, and not at all about the pronunciation. RTGS is not like that. If you take ด as an example, it uses d in initial position and t in final position. The only reason for doing that is to reflect the pronunciation, so RTGS is not right at the transliteration extreme of the spectrum.

ก is not really a g. It's not the k in Kate either, but the k in Kate would be RTGS kh. The phonetic difference between kh and ก is that ก is unaspirated. The h in kh is there to represent aspiration, so it makes sense to take it off and use k by itself. It's the same for ต / ท (t / th) and ป / ผ (p / ph), so this gives you a fairly consistent system.

We wouldn't think of using d for ต because the existence of ด makes it obvious that ต isn't really a d. Similarly, we wouldn't think of using b for ป because the existence of บ makes it obvious that ป is not really a b. It's a lot harder to notice that ก is not really a g, because Thai doesn't have a true g to compare it to.

The IPA letter for ก is k.

Overall I'd say that k is technically accurate and more logical, but much more likely to be misunderstood and pronounced as kh. G would be less accurate but also less likely to be misunderstood, so you can still make a case for it.

1 hour ago, Wongkitlo said:

I have been impressed by Stu Ray Jay for a while. I am now following his suggestion of just learning the 28 or so  most important gaw gai characters in groups according to their class. He has a system of mapping the tongue as it moves around the mouth and opening and closing the throat

There's something I don't like about that guy, but he does usually know his stuff. Maybe have a look at the phonemic approach to consonant classes (that's a link - I'm told they don't always show up). It's not too hard to sort the consonants into "mid", "low" and "has both high and low versions" based on sound.

The first part of the alphabet is organised by place of articulation, i.e. where the tongue is in the mouth. Pretty much all Indic scripts are organised that way, and have been for centuries. Useful to know but not SJR's idea!

For me something clicked when I stopped thinking of the tones as a sort of finishing touch that went on top of the syllable, and realised that they are as much a part of the syllable as the consonants and vowels. After that they stuck a lot easier and I didn't have to rely on having them written down nearly as much.

2 hours ago, The Theory said:

On 10/21/2020 at 5:09 AM, kenk24 said:

How does it compare to Vietnamese? 

No idea about Vietnamese, but I was much, much better with Japanese. I feel that I'm a dumb regarding Thai. Japanese was much easier for me to catch words from speakers and repeat them about the same. It did not work for me with Thai. I'm always wrong, eventually gave up. I believe learning language is just like other things. Person to person it works differently and it is depends on different things + talent in language. 

It's probably going to be harder for a Westerner to pick up spoken Vietnamese than spoken Thai - the number of totally new sounds is about the same (I think there are actually a couple more, if we're comparing with English) but the tonal system is quite a lot more complex. On the other hand, reading and writing is a lot easier - the spelling is pretty regular, the characters are obviously the ones we're already familiar with (or pretty much), there aren't really any tone rules, they use spaces and there aren't any unwritten vowels or syllables. I say that based on a month or so of learning - I went over thinking I might spend quite a bit of time there, but as it turned out I wasn't that into it.

I've only spent a couple of weeks in Japan but the language is known for having a relatively simple sound system, so it makes sense that it would be easier to pick up the pronunciation of Japanese than Thai (or Vietnamese). Reading and writing is obviously a different matter...

6 hours ago, Peeba boy said:

Thanks I have booked it now for 1 November. thai airways

Good for you - does this mean they've now told you you'll be able to get a COE as a new Elite member?

4 hours ago, jayhon73 said:

Gotcha all, thanks. I'll just contact the embassy here. Again, nothing I read about this says you need 500,000 in SAVINGS...just in BANK DEPOSITS over the past 6 months.

 

 

Usually the requirement is that your balance has not dropped below x for y months. The METV is like that, and there's some kind of retirement visa that requires a balance of at least 800k for a certain time. In both cases it's the balance that counts, not the deposits. I can't see them running a scheme where you're OK if you've had 500k in deposits even if you've been overdrawn the whole time...

I saw something on twitter about this new entry route (not the STV) and it looked to me to be the same idea. The tweet was fairly short on detail, but the whole reason they want to see your bank statements is that they want to make sure the people they let in are going to spend money.

Anyway, I wouldn't count on it happening any time soon, if it happens at all. A lot of ideas are floated but never get off the drawing board.

This question has come up a few times but there have been no reports of people entering on the elite scheme. In fact, what you've just posted is probably the most detailed info we've had. There was a guy who posted a few days ago saying that he had been told by Thai Elite and the London embassy that if he applied the process would take 60-90 days, but he wasn't a current member and it wasn't clear whether the 60-90 days was just the application process or whether he'd been told he'd actually get in to Thailand within 90 days.

We do know that existing members who have been stranded out of Thailand the longest are going to be given priority, but how that works out in practice is anyone's guess.

However long it's taking now (if it's even happening now), the new visa is bound to shake things up because there will be more competition for ASQ places.

Edit: I now think that มาฆะ and มกร are two completely separate words that just happen to have been used in the names of months at different times.

10 hours ago, Oxx said:

Just because speakers rub shoulders doesn't mean that lexis will be transferred.

Fair point, I oversimplified when I said "just". What I was trying to say was that, given that the two countries are next to each other, the fact that there is a lot of Khmer vocab in Thai is not evidence that they are related languages.

10 hours ago, Oxx said:

There is no question of the "spelling settling down".

This was a reference to the spelling being มกร, when the transliteration of the Sanskrit would have been มาฆะห์. That is based on the Sanskrit names of the months here, but it's always possible that that info is wrong or that the Thai names actually derive from Pali and the Pali was not quite the same as the Sanskrit. When you say that the Pali word is makara, is that based on directly on the Pali, or is it based on the fact that the word was transliterated as มกร?

I'm sure it's correct that มกร would intially have been pronounced Pali style as มะกะระ, and was later reinterpreted based on Thai spelling conventions. That's really what I meant by incorporation - at some point a loanword is appropriated and comes to be treated as a Thai word, and this means that you will find words that are obviously Indic but are pronounced as if they were Thai. I'm not sure I want to call that mispronunciation - I see it as a healthy part of the incorporation of the loanword - but it does make life more complicated.

2 hours ago, rimpsstar said:

I have had it confirmed by Thai Elite Visa and the London Embassy that I can apply and get an Elite card membership, have it fixed into my passport in the UK, and have TEV instruct the Embassy to give me a COE and return. The whole process taking 8-12 weeks.

They told you you'd actually be in the country within that time?

I'm in a similar position and the big unknowns for me are how long the wait would be if I went for the elite (I have my approval letter, just need to transfer the money) vs the new visa (if the UK is included).

In reality there is a cap on arrivals because the number of quarantine places is limited and it is not clear how they are going to be allotted. You could make a similar comment about the flights. Elite have said that priority will be given to those who have been stranded outside Thailand the longest while holding an elite card, which puts new members at the back of the queue. There are question marks over a lot of other things, like which countries will be eligible for the new visa, when this will be announced, and how long the whole system will take to implement. The elite arrangements were announced almost two months ago, I think, and so far I haven't seen any reports of anyone actually getting a COE / getting in to the country (not that every entry into Thailand is reported on here...).

I don't believe that eligibility for the new visa will be driven purely by the covid stats. I'm not counting on the UK being included, but I don't think you can rule it out. Covid aside I don't need the elite, so (as in your case, I think) the 500k will be wasted if it turns out I could have got in almost as soon anyway. I think you've just got to decide how much you'd care if that happened.

5 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I answered hastily, when I realized that 'here' was a link, "here" it still is not obviously a different color. 
Being เขมร probably makes it a Thai word but I shall research it. 

That's weird - it shows up fine in Firefox. Maybe you have an option to underline links in your settings (in FF it's on by default but you can switch it off).

I thought Khmer and Thai belonged to different language families, and having looked again it seems they are basically unrelated. There will still be a lot of shared vocabulary, just because speakers have been rubbing shoulders for so long.

Obviously a borrowed word gets incorporated into the language at some point, and I think this can change the way you read it - if you treat มกราคม as a Sanskrit word you will probably pronounce it มะ-กะ, but as an adopted Thai word it can just as well be มก-กะ, with doubling of the ก. The transliteration into Thai would have been มาฆะห์, so it looks as though the word was adopted before the spelling settled down.

Edit: another example is มณฑล, which is a faithful transcription of the Sanskrit word that came into English as "mandala", but is read the Thai way and becomes มน-ทน. In this case it's obvious from the spelling that you are looking at a Sanskrit word but the pronunciation has been fully adapted to Thai.

22 hours ago, JHicks said:

I don't know whether the ตร was a final cluster in Sanskrit, or whether the ร was an initial that would have had implied a. Thai doesn't like implied a at the end of a word*, but in words like จักรยาน, compounding has put the ร in the middle of the word, so it makes sense for it to come back to life if it was originally an initial. Otherwise I suppose it would have to be filed under double duty.

It looks as though it was a cluster, so if it comes back to life that is a case of double duty (final>initial) and logically it should be the cluster ตร that takes the a, not just the ร.

I have also realised that the จักร in จักรยาน is from the same word that came into English as chakra. Again this is cluster so when it comes back to life by double duty (again final>initial) you get กระ rather than just ระ.

It's probably worth pointing out that it's not just that the vowel is unwritten in these cases - the consonant or cluster is also doubled.

15 minutes ago, Maestro said:

We have to wait and see what the Notification of the Ministry of the Interior will say once it gets published in the Government Gazette. The Cabinet Resolution has set no deadline for the issuance of this notification.

Am I right in thinking that the announcement about the Elite visa hasn't been gazetted yet? That one must have been made well over a month ago so I guess that's some indication of how long it takes.

4 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I suppose that if a word ends with a consonant other than ก ด บ ม น ง it could be inferred that it is not likely to be a pure Thai word, ยล is perhaps the exception that proves the rule.  

According to the Thai wiktionary (link) ยล is from Khmer.

According to the Khmer/English dictionary here, the final is pronounced l in Khmer.

8 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Now returning to planet Earth, บาตร I read that as บาตอน for ages and was corrected to say บาด ,, Going into orbit again; I still don't know how to read บาตรแก้ว , บาดแก้ว I suppose.

I won't claim to know but I think it would be บาดแก้ว, as you say. I think the ร tends to come back to life in compounds, but บาตรแก้ว is really just two words together, rather than a single word formed by compounding. I'd contrast it with something like จักรยาน, where the meaning of the compound is more than the sum of its parts, and maybe with other cases where, although the meaning is just the sum of the parts, those parts go together so often that they're thought of as a single word.

I think ตร as in ตอน is rare. I had a look on thailanguage.com and only found ยาตร ([royal language] to walk; trek). From what I saw on there, the odds are on your side if, when you come across ตร after a vowel like า that may/may not have a final, you bet on the ต being a final and the ร (therefore) being silent.

I don't know whether the ตร was a final cluster in Sanskrit, or whether the ร was an initial that would have had implied a. Thai doesn't like implied a at the end of a word*, but in words like จักรยาน, compounding has put the ร in the middle of the word, so it makes sense for it to come back to life if it was originally an initial. Otherwise I suppose it would have to be filed under double duty.

* Does this ever happen? I have a feeling there are a couple of examples.

3 hours ago, JHicks said:

I have a suspicion that this usually happens when you would otherwise have a final stop followed by an initial stop. In อักษร you have a final stop (ก) followed by an intial fricative (ษ), and (so?) there is no extra syllable.

On reflection that is not one of my better hunches. There are too many exceptions. I still think there will be a pattern, but this isn't it.

It can't be อะ-กะ-สอน because  ั requires a final. That said, there are a few different situations where you find extra syllables and another one ("double duty") would give you อัก-กะ-สอน. Here ก would be acting both as a final and as an initial. I have a suspicion that this usually happens when you would otherwise have a final stop followed by an initial stop. In อักษร you have a final stop (ก) followed by an intial fricative (ษ), and (so?) there is no extra syllable. I was meaning to look at this in more detail a while back but half dropped it, half got distracted. I think there's probably a rule of thumb, but at the same time there will be exceptions. To get to the bottom of it you'd need a lot of examples, and that means a lot of trawling. Also, it's questionable how useful this kind of rule would be, because it would only really come in when you didn't know the word you were looking at, but did know that it was a single word - and given that we are talking about words of more than one written syllable, you wouldn't be able to tell that from the spelling.

I don't believe consonant class is much of a clue in itself, but I do think the phonetic type of the consonant makes a difference in this and other situations where you have implied a. In other situations (not double duty, as far as I can tell) it may also be useful to know which consonants tend to appear in words of Indic origin.

Edit: if anyone out there has a list of double duty words, it might be interesting to look at this some more. It might lead nowhere but you never know.

19 minutes ago, alyx said:

There is no such a thing as a cap of 250 members 

I've heard different things on that (also on whether new members can enter). I don't think the scheme's in operation at all yet, so I guess I'll just have to wait and see. In reality there is an overall cap because there are only so many ASQ places.

I would bet against the new scheme being limited to certain countries but you never know.

I think the previous announcement about Elite holders still stands and they are going to be allowed in subject to a cap of 250 per month. I have my approval letter but was waiting for the announcement to be implemented and also to see what other arrangements might be announced. Now we have an announcement of a 9 month visa at a fraction of the price of Elite membership, subject to a cap of 1200 per month.

Does anybody have any idea how many Elite holders there are out there, or how many of them are likely to be in Thailand already? I'm just trying to gauge how long the waiting list is likely to be.

The 9 month visa sounds like a lottery but unless I can be sure of getting in within a couple of months with the Elite, it's hard to justify parting with the cash. Also, that 1200 limit will be based on ASQ places, which can be scaled up quite easily.

On 9/11/2020 at 3:58 PM, FarFlungFalang said:

Seems to be a few Thais returning and test positive on arrival but don't have to test prior to boarding the plane so also possible he caught it on the flight.It seem beyond the pale that they do this as can be seen some people might get through undetected because of this.It only takes one.  

I wondered about that, but if there had been other positive cases on the same flight, wouldn't they have said so in the press conference? I gather they didn't or it would have been commented on. Also, I think most falang are in business class at the moment whereas most Thai nationals are in economy, so the chances are high that the people sitting near him would have had recent negative tests. Still possible of course but it would take something close to the perfect storm.

I linked to the explanation on thai-language a few posts back, but it's basically "if you can can hum it or carry a tune with it (the way you can with m or l or r) then it has to be low class; if you can't and there's no escape of air then it's mid class, and otherwise it has both low and high class versions". I like this approach because it makes you focus on the pronunciation, and it helps with things like which consonant endings are live and which of the low class consonants can take ห.

47 minutes ago, tgeezer said:

I suppose this will appear in the quote box, apologies. 
I see what you mean but it is what might be described nowadays as "aftermarket". 

I learned the "alphabet" first using the correct tones so had only to separate the mid class consonants from the low class consonants, the high being in the fourth tone. 

Did you do that by rote? It's the same issue as before really, just in relation to a smaller set of letters. The phonemic method would have been a fairly simple alternative to memorising which were mid and which low. The classes stick after a while so you end up knowing them by heart. In some cases you could also have got there by working backwards from the name, and then there's alphabetical order. Still, these methods are too complicated to be worthwhile IMO - that's the rabbit hole again.

7 hours ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

First question. I thought that if (ห) was placed in front of a low class consonant, it would be silent, and would change that consonant from low class to high class. But here it is not silent, it forms a separate syllable, and is not a class changer. Is this an exception or have I overlooked a rule?

It's more to do with the rule, which only applies to low class consonants that don't have a high class equivalent. If there's a ready-made high class version (like ผ), ห is not used as a class changer.

On your second question, it might be worth pointing out that  ์ basically cancels the consonant, so if it was used here you would lose the ม as well. That means there's no way to show that it's silent, but they still keep it in there to reflect the original Indic spelling. As far as I can think this only happens with short i. I believe the original vowel gets dropped because otherwise the word is hard to fit into the Thai stress pattern. It's a while since I've looked at this but IIRC short i is usually (always?) dropped at the end of longer Indic words. In this case (again, IIRC) you can tell the word is Indic from the use of ภ and รร, so it's at least a fair bet that it's going to be silent.