JHicks

1 hour ago, Oxx said:

 

I think you may not be following the discussion.  Yes, I misquoted from a piece about linker syllables, but the discussion really is about the unwritten, unstressed, no glottal stop, mid-tone /a/ - not linker syllables.

 

As for Potisuk, perhaps you could provide a little more information?  I'm sure I'd enjoy reading the paper.

Course I'm following it - I was saying that the phenomenon you are describing only occurs in linker syllables.

I will see if I can find a link for the paper I mentioned. There are a couple of other papers on stress which deal with the change or loss of tone in the type of syllable you are describing, which they call linker syllables.

5 hours ago, nrasmussen said:

Thanks for the clarification. I never really thought about this before.

 

So to put it in other words: in case of an unstressed syllable the vowel reduces to a schwa (ə) and the tone approaches a mid tone. Would that be correct? If it is, then it would be an easy rule for me to remember.

Not sure if this needs pointing out but we're only talking about linker syllables here, not any unstressed syllable. A linker is a minor syllable with a short a and no final. All linkers are unstressed syllables, but not all unstressed syllables are linkers.

For non-linkers, stress can affect the way the realisation of tone quite a bit, but the tone itself does not change. There is quite a good paper by Potisuk on this. It's online somewhere. For linkers, some people argue that the tone is converted into a mid-tone (Oxx's view), and some argue that they have no lexical tone. For most purposes it doesn't make much difference which way you look at it.

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Have you come across ไวยากรณ์ไทย by นวรรณ พันธุเมธา? I have a couple of copies 4th and 5th editions, one in each country. She retains นาม กริยา naturally they are คำหลัก but other nomenclature is divorced from English, คำขยาย คำเรียกร้อง etc.  
Don't worry about the typos, I don't!

No, haven't heard of it. I do want a Thai Thai grammar book though so if I ever get back in I will look out for it.

kO.

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I was "FaceTiming" with Thailand after my last post and พลาดรถไฟ was compared with พลาดโอกาส. However my friend is very familiar with English so 'miss' works for him.

That's an excellent comparison. I don't think พลาดโอกาส is an anglicism so perhaps พลาดรถไฟ isn't such a massive shift.

I'm pretty sure you can. I don't think you get the visa itself until you land. I'm not a member though - still weighing it up. No doubt somebody who knows for sure will chime in.

Are you sure those visa arrangements are still the same? If so, is there no chance of your employer agreeing to accept 2 months' notice in the circs, or agreeing that you can withdraw your notice if your O-A visa doesn't go through? Maybe you live in Monte Carlo or somewhere, but I would guess the amount of rent you stand to lose is quite a bit smaller than the elite fee, so the situation with your employer is probably the main thing.

Or would be but for the missing ค. That's what you get for using copy/paste...

We might not think of it this way, because "he is in uniform" is a sort of figure of speech, but it expresses location just as much as "it is in the cupboard", so I think อยู่ makes sense. If the process that gives you เขาพลาดรถไฟ continued, you might eventually get เป็น used instead of อยู่, but I don't think it's gone that far. I'm not sure how the Thaiglish versions sound to native speakers. The examples are from a native speaker though, so I would think เขาแต่งเรื่องแบบ is OK.

10 hours ago, JHicks said:

...

ประโยคภาษาอังกฤษมาใช้ (เขามาสาย- เขามาช้า / เขาพลาดรถไฟ-เขามาไม่ทัน

รถไฟ / ในอนาคตอันใกล้-ในไม่ช้า/ เขาอยู่ในเครื่องแบบ-เขาแต่งเครื่องแบบ)

2 hours ago, tgeezer said:

 

Now we have to try to see how those sentences would be dealt with in Thai ! 
For example  พลาด cannot be the transitive verb "miss"  ไม่ตรงที่หมาย ในลักษณะเช่น เพลียนไป เลี่ยงไป หรือไกลไป because it would appear to be intransitive. 

I thought it was only the first sentence of each pair that was anglicised, and the second was the more authentic / traditional version for comparison.

I think the issue with พลาด is just that has not traditionally been used in that sense. I may have misunderstood what you're saying but I believe it's a transitive verb.

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I have a ม. 5 book here in England which describes ประสบการณ์ as an English import which shows how much Thai has changed.

3 hours ago, Oxx said:

I can't imagine what English word that might have come from.  Any thoughts?

Maybe they mean that although it is a Thai word, it has come to be used in an English way. Compare the last bullet point below:

3. ภาษามีการเปลี่ยนแปลง
- คำบางคำอาจเกิดขึ้นใหม่ เช่น ละมุนภัณฑ์ กระด้างภัณฑ์
- บางคำอาจเลิกใช้ เช่น ฦกซึ้ง (ลึกซึ้ง )
- บางคำอาจมีการเปลี่ยนแปลงเสียงไปบ้าง (อย่างนี้ เป็น อย่างงี้/ ฉันใด-ไฉน)
- บางคำอาจมีความหมายต่างไปจากเดิม ใช้ต่างไปจากเดิม (หนู-ดิฉัน)
- รูปประโยคก็อาจเปลี่ยนแปลง และอาจเกิดรูปประโยคใหม่ ๆ เช่น การนำรูป
ประโยคภาษาอังกฤษมาใช้ (เขามาสาย- เขามาช้า / เขาพลาดรถไฟ-เขามาไม่ทัน
รถไฟ / ในอนาคตอันใกล้-ในไม่ช้า/ เขาอยู่ในเครื่องแบบ-เขาแต่งเครื่องแบบ)

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

To ramble on a little more, I find it interesting but initially needed to formulate these ideas in order to remember the vowels.  I first realized that I needed some logic when encountering the vowel เอาะ and thinking wrongly that it was the short form of เอา , I was confused for a while.  In fact on reflection I think that the second element In the mixed vowels is more likely to be สระ ะ than สระ า .

I don't think the combination is ever going to be exactly the same as two individual sounds, although I can still see the sense in choosing symbols that give you some indication of how the combined sound is made up. I believe that ะ comes from a symbol representing some sort of h sound coming after the vowel in Indic languages. The one in อะ may have been reanalysed as 'a' by now, but I think it originally represented a glottal stop that followed the vowel, with the 'a' sound being implied. That would explain why ะ acts as a shortener with other vowels - it's an instruction to cut them off with a glottal stop. If that's right, there isn't really a symbol for the short 'a' itself that you could use for the diphthongs.

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I am not sure what offglide in แล้ว or เร็ว means. ว (ow) and ย (oy) ending denote live words so I feel are the most similar to their English counterparts.  If they are going to be said as dead endings then perhaps we could call อัว a diphthong which would make an argument for calling both ย and ว vowels. 
I know from hearing people mention "vowel shift" that the language has undergone some changes which could explain much of what puzzles me. 

Phonetically I think they're semivowels (to me an 'offglide' is a semivowel that follows a nuclear vowel). Still, the fact that Thai people find it so hard to pronounce a consonant after ai / ao probably shows that they're acting as consonants in the Thai sound system. It still makes sense that they're live endings, because they're sonorants rather than stops - same principle as for ร, น etc.

I don't really know the history but I wouldn't be surprised if there'd been a lot of clunky moves in the process of getting a script designed for one family of languages to work for another one (especially one with a much richer vowel inventory).

I'd be interested to learn about sound changes in Thai, especially any that have occurred since the script was introduced. My hunch is that it was not a completely logical / consistent system to start with, but I'm not sure it needed to be.

12 hours ago, tgeezer said:

I don’t see a need to alter ี +า  ื+า  They are represented oddly เอีย เอือ and อู+า even more so.

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

JHicks: I see that you see my approach but in เอูอ you are reading a symbol used to write vowels with a sound. เ Is not สระ อา.

I was trying to capture the family resemblance between เอีย เอือ and อัว, which are all opening diphthongs. The second element of each one is close to า in sound quality, but it isn't a separate long vowel, so I could live with a pattern that could be interpreted "opening diphthong based on อี" etc. If you say these vowels it's recognisably the same gesture in each case, just as the offglide in เร็ว, แล้ว etc is more of a gesture than a specific sound.

I believe there's a long history of using เ to write vowel sounds other than เอ, and if the system was rejigged to avoid this, a new symbol would be needed for เออ (and the other opening diphthongs, if they weren't changed to use า). I'm happy to have some combinations that aren't the sum of their parts - not that the spelling system is up for negotiation, obviously.

Personally I find this stuff interesting, but I would think most people are happy just to learn the system and soon come to perceive a combination like อัว as a unit.

1 hour ago, ChomDo said:

How does getting a Thailand Elite membership (the basic 5 year 500k version) work right now? I mean if this is the only way to return within the coming months, I would consider it now. Just interested to know if it's that simple as applying online from abroad at this time?

7 minutes ago, Willy333 said:

From what I know, it is pretty simple. There's many threads talking about it. Just keep in mind that it is not official yet that they will let those with an elite visa in. You will also most likely have to go through quarantine like everybody else.

I've made some enquiries - if you start the process now you might be in some time in December, but there are plenty of things that can go wrong in the meantime. Although there's been an announcement that Elite holders are going to be allowed in in the next phase, this hasn't made it into the regulations yet. The visa process itself is taking 2-3 months, so you'd hope that the regulations would be in place by the time the visa came through. If so, you could apply to get on a flight, but I'd say it's a certainty that you'll need a quarantine hotel booking (as under the current regulations) and a near-certainty that there will only be repatriation flights available. In practice that's a extra €3-4k and more waiting. I haven't made my mind up yet. 

3 hours ago, tgeezer said:

That makes perfect sense, เอา represents อัว...     

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

อัว would (if it were a word) be pronounced /ʔua/ as in วัว /wua/ meaning "cow".  Nothing like the /aw/ of เอา.

I think his point was that it's strange that อัว is pronounced that way when, by the logic that gives you /aw/ and อาว, it ought to have the sound written เอา.

....It is strange that when mixing the vowels อี. อื  and อู with า,  อัว was chosen and not อูว .

Did you mean อูา? I guess you'd then have to change เอือ and เอีย. I think I'd settle for เอูอ, which would free อัว up to be used instead of เอา. Course, it's a lot more consistent than English spelling even as it is...

6 hours ago, Oxx said:

 

The mark, known as การันต์ /kaaˑran/ or ไม้ทัณฑฆาต /máyˑthanˑthaˑkhâat/, normally silences one consonant, in this case it's silencing the final two consonants.  There is at least one word in which it silences the final three consonants.

If placed over the final consonant of a syllable with an unwritten vowel, I think it always silences the whole syllable.

I'm not sure what word you are thinking of but suspect the first of your three consonants would belong to a linker syllable, so would be silenced either because its main syllable has gone or just because it'd leave you with a weak syllable at the end of a word. I'd be interested to know of any exceptions to that pattern.

1 hour ago, tgeezer said:

I have seen this word before, does anybody know what it means and why it has this incredible spelling? 

I won't claim to know, but based on the entry in the RID you can reconstruct it like this:

The original pronunciation was ชะวะนะ (there's a name for this way of reading Thai words of Pali / Sanskrit origin but I can't remember it). If you say ชะวะ fast enough it begins to sound like เชา, just because that's the sound you get when you round your lips while saying a. That gives you an Indic word with a final syllable ending in อะ, and that type of syllable tends to be dropped, as in สิงห์ etc. This may be because it is more natural to stress the longer / more complex syllable, and Thai can't really accommodate a weak syllable at the end of a word - that would explain why the final consonant in words like จักร comes back to life when you attach another syllable that can take stress, so that what was originally the final syllable becomes the penultimate syllable and can be weak. Whatever the reason, at that point the original word has been reduced to เชา. It looks as though the spelling was changed to reflect both the new pronunciation and the Indic spelling.

20 hours ago, CWA14 said:

I'm a US citizen (UK based) waiting on a repatriation flight to Thailand (hopefully) for mid-August. My wife and I were issued visas (her Non-B for work, my Non-O as her dependent) from the Thai Embassy in London last week. Provided you meet the requirements (confirmed ASQ and repatriation flight bookings, correct visa type etc.), I can't see why they wouldn't issue you a CoE provided you meet all requirements.

 

That being said, if there aren't any repatriation flights from Madrid, you'll likely have to head elsewhere. From London, we haven't been told anything concrete from the embassy and/or the school as to repatriation flights (when, costs, seat availibility, priority etc.). Will post when I hear something official.

Thanks - hope you're not waiting too long.

19 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

The best thing to do is to E-mail and Call the Thai Embassy in Madrid (or Consulate in Barcelona) and ask them if there are any repatriation flights at all or whether you would be better off applying in another country. 

Yes I'll do that, thanks for the suggestion.

Not sure if this belongs here or in the covid forum but I'm a UK passport holder currently in Spain, hoping to travel to Thailand without returning to the UK. Assuming I meet the requirements for a COE, is there any reason why I couldn't get it from Madrid?

The downside of this could be that there aren't as many flights available. Does anyone know what the busiest routes have been so far?

I'm thinking about springing for an Elite visa and hopefully coming to Thailand in the next 4-6 months.

I have only got 3 completely blank pages left in my passport. When I looked at ed visas, I was told there was a minimum requirement of 4 blank pages. Normally of course you'd just renew your passport, but apparently the waiting list is several months long.

Does anyone know any more about this?

17 hours ago, cmarshall said:

Possible sources of Sars-Cov2 should certainly be investigated, but the Economist article has a whiff of the unfortunate attitude that the Asian countries that succeeded in suppressing the virus must have just been lucky somehow or enjoyed some natural advantage unavailable to the Western countries who then can be excused for their miserable failure at protecting their citizens from death.

I hear you but I think you're projecting there.

It's an interesting theory but I don't really buy it. I guess one indicator would be whether SE Asian expatriates in the Western hotspots are less likely to pick it up than the rest of us. I'm not sure whether the Economist article looked at that, as most of it is behind a paywall. My impression from the reports of imported cases is that they're just as vulnerable as anyone else, but obviously that's just an impression. I'm also sceptical about the idea that a virus would stay localised in SE Asia for many years and not even make it as far as South Korea or Indonesia. Malaysia and Singapore haven't been completely spared either. There's definitely something going on but I think it's still a mystery. Months ago I was putting it down to the weather, but with what has happened in places like India that can't be it.

28 minutes ago, Michael19641965 said:

Everybody has to come to terms with the situation as it is.

Thailand is closed at least until September 2021!!!!, unless a successful cure or vaccine is found before that time.

If you have a privileged situation (work permit, family, ev visa etc.) you can apply for the COE, but the limiting factor are not the flights, but the ASQ rooms, 17 hotels, that is a mere 1200 rooms, and these rooms are blocked by each arrival for a minimum of 15nights!

To put it simply, there is no realistic chance for those abroad now to re-enter Thailand in a reasonable time.

And for basic tourists it is definitely not before end of 2021. 

It is sad, but it is the truth.

That's how I see it as well. I'd probably stump up for the EV if I thought it'd give me the extra year until next autumn, but it's a lot to spend when there are so many other hurdles like testing and ASQ, and no guarantee of clearing them any time soon. In a normal year I'd only want to spend about 5 months in Thailand anyway, so there's no value to me in the EV unless it really does offer a way in during Covid.

On 7/6/2020 at 9:37 AM, Sheryl said:

However it is no longer a requirement that treatment be unavailable in the person's own country. This harks back to pre July when permission was granted only on emergency humanitarian grounds. The new guidance allows even "wellness" tourists and makes specific mention of things like fertility treatments, hardly an emergency.

 

They do seem to require some sort of certificate from a doctor or hospital in the home country but I think this has more to do with proving that the person is really coming as a patient.

I haven't found any official guidance - any chance you let me know where to look? The London embassy doesn't have anything about wellness as opposed to emergency treatment.

On 6/20/2020 at 4:26 AM, mikeinkamala said:

As per the help section in Anki, in order not to have to study the whole amount of words at one time and also make it easier by grouping words in different groups ie expressions, politics, health, diseases etc.

mike

If it gives you too many cards you can change the new cards and review settings. Even with the default settings though it won't go all the way through the deck.

On 6/21/2020 at 2:24 AM, cmarshall said:

If the Anki help advised multiple decks, that's just bad advice.

I don't think it does advise that. I'm pretty sure it says to use tags and then create filtered decks if necessary. Personally I don't bother to split things up at all - I'm happy to have a random selection.

1 hour ago, mikeinkamala said:

Hi,

Thanks for the two previous posts gents.

The good news is I have found all the missing words in the "browse" section but the bad news is I don't know how to get them back to their original decks.

Will be grateful if anyone can tell me how to do it.

Mike

 

 

If you select them in the browser you can use CTRL + D to change the deck - or if you've accidentally moved them to a filtered deck, I think you can do it just by deleting that deck. Might be worth posting a screenshot.

In what way gone? They don't appear when you click study, or you can't see them in the browser? Maybe you buried some cards accidentally or changed your review settings (or maybe you updated the app and the default review settings changed).

I think that's the AUA book, possibly vol. 2.

Edit: no, I don't think it's vol. 2. Maybe vol. 1, but then it seems too advanced for that. If it's the book where he stays in a hotel for a bit but decides it's too expensive, and goes to get some clothes made, I have definitely seen it. I'll post again if I remember where.

3 minutes ago, Maestro said:

The Ministerial Notifications of  7 April 2020 and 23 April 2020 were issued because of 

for the purpose to allow foreigners with a permission to stay expiring on 26 March 2020 or later who were unable to leave Thailand because of the border closure and/or unavailability of passenger flights out of Thailand to continue to stay legally in Thailand. The current automatic extension of stay is until 31 July 2020.

If you're saying the reason for the amnesty was that people were unable to leave, and that won't be the case once the airports reopen for international departures, I agree. Even so, it's unlikely to end on the day international departures restart, because that would mean everybody having to get out the same day. I think there's bound to be some kind of grace period, but I wouldn't count on it being so long that other countries in the region are open by the time it ends, or that you can get straight back into Thailand regardless of nationality.

2 hours ago, JackThompson said:

If forced out of Thailand by July 31 (not saying that will happen), it is just a question of what other country wants the spending - who opens up first.  Then we go there, until we can return here.

But what makes you think that any country will have opened up by the time the amnesty ends? I can see people having to go back to their "home" countries.