baanthale

economy goes better or new government = bye bye invester visa

people with a bit of brain & common sense can see this is just a temp solution for the thai economy and when it gets better, they also get rid of the investers

why they don't make doing business for foreign the same as for locals

as most western countries do not make a difference in nationality if thais want to start up a business in a foreign country

in my home country, any person can start a business with as little as about 10k euro funds

no need for 4 local people to hire, needed or not ...

why don't they start with that ?

There is a large difference between developed and developing countries.

European countries are allowing anyone to invest or start a business because it will benefit their economies. There is no risk that these investment will hurt the local industry, as their economies are already advanced.

But Europe (and America) is protecting themselves everywhere it will hurt them, and are not less nationalistic than Thailand. For instance, developing countries can sell oranges to Europe without any problems. But can they sell processed oranges like jam and juice? No, import quotas are set to make it impossible to export it and still make a profit. Hence the European food processing companies are protected.

It should also be remembered that the current international trade system is heavily tilted in favor of developed countries. It is estimated that for every dollar given in foreign aid, the developing world is loosing 3 dollars due to European and American subsidies in agriculture.

Following advice from organizations such as IMF has already done so much damage to a lot of countries.Thailand is still a relatively poor country and should look after their self-interest and their own people.

The terms developed and undeveloped countries are no longer valid. They suggest that Thailand (and other so called developing countries) wil develop into something that looks like a "developed" country. There are at least as many elements showing the evolution of "developed" countries towards the model of "undeveloped" countries as the other way round. Thailand cs. have become very rich countries with many poor people, which is not the same as rich countries with a small number of poor people.

If I start a business in Thailand, sharing my expertise with Thai people, how do I hurt the Thai economy? I might hurt the Thai people who have lots of money and little expertise and who are not forced to stand on the tip of their toes to invest in innovation because labour is too cheap here. The cost of one building worker in EU is around 33.000 Eur (aprox 1,5 million THB) yearly. In Thailand, let us say 70.000 THB? Who is hurting the economy here? The people who write off an appartment building in 4 years with a nett income of 5 million THB yearly? Or the farang who tries to introduce some quality in a small-scale building project? The result of this configuration being of course that a decent bathroom floor or a well calculated staircase are the exception and not the rule in Thailand. The different type of countries do not protect their own country, they protect the position of the people with economic power.That is not a smal difference in shade.

You are however correct in saying that countries like the EU and the US have more profit from aid than the receiving countries. Combine that with the fact that the annual amount of money sent back to the families by migrant workers in the EU and US surpasses any amount of aid, and, in most cases, is used more sufficiently. (I do not dare t calculate how much individual farangs bring into LOS every year) At the moment there is only one solution to the aid question: stop it. Is it not crazy that Europe gives aid to e.g. India in the form of educational projects whereas India refuses to solve the problem of their 300 million starving citizens, in order to keep the salaries low? Europe is training workers for free to work in the Indian steel factories that can compete with European steel mills because the Indian workers are paid about 10% of his European fellow worker! The question stands why aid goes on and who profits from it, here and there. Certainly not the taxpayer in the EU, nor your average Thai or Indian.

Import quota have been largely lifted since 2001, especially on steel and textile products. Again, who has taken advantage? The rich, here and there. The fairy tale spoke of the advantages for the "poor" workers in the "poor" countries. Result? A car with less safety features than in Europe and produced in a poor country, costs more in that "poor" country than in the European export market. Who is being protected here? The workers in the car plants have not seen much progress.

Let me conclude: the rich here and there, are fending for themselves. International capital gets more and more concentrated. Real power is in the hands of a decreasing number of people. There are no more developing and developed countries. A new economic model arises: a few rich, who have nothing anymore in common with normal people and see all their priviliges as their natural rights and, on the other hand, a large mass of workers and people with no income. Most of them get a smaller portion of the national income. The rich have their privileges everywhere. Thaksin can buy property in England. I can not own one rai here. I just have to keep 800.000 in the bank at 0,75 and shut up. But one thing is sure: since I live in Thailand, I do not have have any feelings of guilt about development anymore. That at least is a very positive result.

That was one of the very best posts I've read at Thaivisa!

One can only imagine what kind of effort SJ and you needed to put in, to get ride of a GOOD poster like Colpyat, to keep the site as a campaign site for PAD and the ever quieter Democrats. Very low indeed, h-ll, he can't even answer for him self

He's attempted to do just that with 18 (and counting) different Nick's.

HE was very justifiably removed for not complying with forum rules that HE broke. Perhaps he should seek political asylum on britainvisa.com for being rightfully prosecuted and punished here.

Yes, I am not surprised that you know exactly how many times he tried to log in here. I suppose you are the one reporting him each time. He is not the only one breaking rules here, but don't think people are stupid, everyone here knows what's going on behind the scenes.

YH, I was answering specific, numbered "accusations" against PAD supporters on this board. You, just like that poster, are trying to find some OTHER points on which you might or might not be right.

I also find it worrying how you throw your support behind low life thugs who has been harassing PAD (and Democrat) rallies for years and describe it as a struggle against fascism. May I ask you a question - have you gone nuts??? Don't be ashamed, you are not alone - lots of people who couldn't see themselves as supporting PAD ended up being tossed together with some truly despicable characters. Look at where Surapong, the hero of the student revolution, has ended. Look at how Colpyat completly lost his mind, look at Human Rights Commissioner Jaran who ended up throwing rocks at people, look at Nation's Pravit who can't to seem to find his footing anymore. And whatever has happened to Chownah?

There's no "third way", no neutrality, one way or another you are going to support one of the two opposing camps, no matter how much you try to stay above the fray, and when that choice is made, you'll have to live with all the negative stuff that is assossiated with the group of your choice. I'll take PAD over Thaksin fan clubs any day. You might not respect Tony Clifton or JK, but I'd choose them over Sunrise and Co anytime.

And with PAD - their agenda depends on their supporters, though eventually they might lose the touch with people who make them strong. At that point I'd thank them for all the good things, but it'd be time to part ways.

>>>>

Baanthale, I don't know any poster on this board who fully supports the "new politics" proposal. I think I'm the only one who thinks it's worth taking a notice of.

Nowhere in this proposal they want "to take away vote rights for the majority of the population", that's entirely your own idea. You thought it up and now you are having a good time deriding it. How clever.

They proposed that 70% of parlament would consist of representatives of various social groups. Representatives, people who represent someone in parlament.

Theoretically, I think that it might work because so far elected politicians do not represent people who voted them in. That's the reality, and it's a big problem, and "new politics" is an effort to solve it.

Practically, it's a non-starter anyway.

Plus, who have gone nuts!? So now you start to attacking posters witch can not even wright and defend them selfs here anymore. One can only imagine what kind of effort SJ and you needed to put in, to get ride of a GOOD poster like Colpyat, to keep the site as a campaign site for PAD and the ever quieter Democrats. Very low indeed, h-ll, he can't even answer for him self

PAD posters on the board don't stand behind "selected" Parliament idea?! But again, thats one of PAD's MAIN goals, isn't it?

70% "selected" parliamentary, that can ONLY mean most part of the population lost any right for a vote and a say!

You think "it might work", to have some generals decide on who's gone make decisions and run the country, I beg to differ! Just give me any example on a working democracy, were people don't have a say!

No, for whatever reason that has to do with Thailand.

I think that have a lot to do with Thailand right now! As I understand it, one of PADs main goals with "new politics", is to take away vote rights for the majority of the population. But okay, thanks for being honest, then I know you don't want democracy for Thailand!

Sorry baanthale, you're jumping all around in your comments. Can you put together something more understandable and try again?

Okay, sorry if you didn't understand. My question was, do you know of any places in the world with real democracy, were the population do not have vote rights or any say?

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

so then, they ARE "sophisticated, political fit and informed people" ?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

They chose to go because they felt they could in a democracy that values free speech. But lovely philosophy of yours. The rape victim deserved to be raped because she wore a dress. She "wanted" sex and she "got it."

Yes I think they are as political fit and informed as anyone else in this country (even if most of them do not share your views on politics here)! I don't think you should loose your right to vote because you are from a rural area. Thats what democracy is all about. Do you know any place in the world with real democracy, were the population do not have a say??

To compare PAD beatings with a rape victim being raped because of her/his outfit is just laughable, do you think you did an honest comparison?

Much more honest than the Nazi one...

Fortunately footage exists that shows the attacks were brutal and unprovoked.

To spin it and say they were " cruisin' for a bruisin' " is ridiculous and bizarre to say the least. They were the victims of an attack, they were on the receiving end of a brutal and vicious one-sided attack... and yet, you still blame them... which is not unlike a defendant's lawyer would do in a rape case.

You didn't answer my qustion!? If/when PAD can get their "New Politics" they want, and most of the population lost their right of vote and say, it would for sure start to look like some parts of Europe in the 1930's.

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

so then, they ARE "sophisticated, political fit and informed people" ?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

They chose to go because they felt they could in a democracy that values free speech. But lovely philosophy of yours. The rape victim deserved to be raped because she wore a dress. She "wanted" sex and she "got it."

Yes I think they are as political fit and informed as anyone else in this country (even if most of them do not share your views on politics here)! I don't think you should loose your right to vote because you are from a rural area. Thats what democracy is all about. Do you know any place in the world with real democracy, were the population do not have a say??

To compare PAD beatings with a rape victim being raped because of her/his outfit is just laughable, do you think you did an honest comparison?

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, So why wasn't he convicted for this crime?? I think you and me know the answer..

You think he wasn't convicted because he would take others down i assume? Rather than arguing against him being convicted of this crime on the grounds that he wasn't the only one (as you seem to be doing), why don't you argue for everyone involved being brought to justice, including him. Or do you seriously think he is in no way culpable for government policy during his tenure?

No, as I said before, if it is justice we want to see,then everyone involved should be charged! I argued against Samuian, because his view seems to be that Thaksin alone was involved.

I have increasingly come to see parallels between PAD and Oswald (father of Max!) Mosley's Blackshirts.I wouldn't want to push the fascist comparison too far though there are certainly some.I had more in mind the fact that initially some very decent middle class people gave support in the difficult conditions of the 1930's, depressed economic conditions and incompetent (or worse) politicians.Many, rather like the PAD rank and file, were rather unsophisticated politically.As time went on the race hatred and reactionary nature of the Blackshirt leadership became evident and the middle class support drifted away.

Oh... see here we go!

So the "Voters" from the rural areas who have sold their voting rights for a mere 200-500 Baht and promises followed by promises, they are "sophisticated, political fit and informed people", are they?

Anyone who spent some time in Thailand knows that vote buying started long before Thaksin, and that it is not one sided! The discussion regarding this have been up on Thai visa many times. Also, most money takers will NOT vote for the one giving them money, even if the take money offered! And PAD doesn't offer "compensation" for anyone attending their fascist meetings?

And nobody out of their ranks just recently went as far as mobbing and clubbing peaceful protesters of the PAD? So why did they choose to demonstrate in the heart of Thaksin-PPP land? To get more supporters, I don't think so, the wanted confrontation, and they got it. I do not say that the anti protesters did the right think, but it was expected to happened. Would be the same result if a Nazi organization did demonstrations in Jerusalem.

Mr.T's orders the war on drugs had several thousand people killed in cold blood, So why wasn't he convicted for this crime?? I think you and me know the answer..

Hey Plus, you have been argued down to the ground in thread after thread, specially by Meerkat, but also by others. You have gone so far that you even call the majority of Thailands voters "truly fuc_ked up people" , why don't you just give it up? Have this become some sort of "face issue" for you?

It is very sad to see the people of Thailand treating their former Prime Minister with such disrespect. What has happened to the people of Thailand?

Once regarded as peaceful friendly people, they are now crazy in mind, protesting at any decision that the government makes. The have soon forgotten the old days where twenty baht had to last for your food all day.

They have become westernized and with it they have become hypocrites, vindictive, jealous and antisocial people.

Wake up Thailand and leave Dr. Thaksin alone! You have very short memories. You must know that it would be difficult for him to have a fair trial here, and one can't blame him for the decision that he has made.

I am with you Paul At least as long as there is selective law, and not everyone involved get punished. Some here thinks that if only Thaksin and Samak out of the way, everything will be good again, don't worry, they will sooner or later know how wrong they are!

Seriously, why does any alien in Thailand genuinly care about the Thai education system? What is it to you? What's really in it for you? Haven't you got better things to do with your time than to ponder the education system here? If your an alien teacher in the system, I think as long as your little lot is OK why do you bother with the rest? After all, for an alien teaching here, is it not just a means to an end, ie; the money, in order you live the life style that you chose.

Some of us are parents with kids in the education system which is why we care. Others I guess just care for humanitarian reasons. I also guess that if people are teaching out here it is quite likely that may have some desire to see things improved. It may even be that the lifestyle someone chose involved the job they chose.

I have never understood why the only reason someone should care about things is that there is something in it for them.

Each to their own

Farang parents who have their children in the Thai education system can not say that they CARE!!

Care for who? obviously only himself.

A child graduating with a Thai degree!! goodness gracious thats not caring for the child.

A careing farang parent would take the family home at school age.

I think it's a good lesson for a child to start out the first years in a country like Thailand, to learn and see how unfair and selfish life can be.

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

So the "fishing net look a like" laws and regulations on foreign owned business in Thailand doesn't have anything to do with fear of competition, and fear that the Thai worker starts to think outside the box. It's all about that foreign company's only use cheap Thai labor, without giving anything back to the community. Thai company's on the other hand are good because they don't sack workers, as they are all "luk nongs".

One can call it fear of competition, or one can call it love of one's own marketshare. It has nothing to do with keeping anyone down though (no idea why you trying to somehow link it to the state of education here). My view was a counter to your biased view that foreign companies want to "give back to the community" while local companies only want to exploit locals and kepe them down.

I will explain to you how it's linked to education. When the doors in Thailand opens up for foreign investments under the same terms as Thai investment, there will be a need for educated people. It will not be enough to just show a graduate paper that 'papa" paid big money for. It will not be enough to have contacts or be a "luk-nong". You will be employed because of what you know, and not because of who you know. The government and society will have to put their sh-t together, and education will not be on offer only because of how full your wallet is, rater on if you are smart or not!

Education should be dealt with in anyones home, (beside socials, maths and geography). The government and citizens does not have any responsibility to get the masses educated, one should only care for one self and the family. Any sort of help should be classified as "handouts", and that would not benefit anyone, beside the taker. It's the poors own fault that they are undereducated, should have been born with rich parents with money saved in the bank.

Education gets its start in the home. The gov't and citizens do have responsibility to provide basic education... but should be promoting a 'better start' from the time before babies are born as well (everyone should be reading and talking to their children during pregnancy... and should be *educating* their own children throughout their lives... I'm still learning from my parents to this very day... they are still learning from my grandparents as well). "Any sort of help" is your term, not mine. In general, it is both the poor, the middle class, the rich, who are responsible for their financial and social status in life. Yours is a view that tries to ignore that life/progress is not a one generation game, but a continuing summation of the previous generations.

So there you said it yourself! So what do we argue about? All have to take resbonsibility, poor and rich.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

Again, that's blaming external (non-self) conditions for internal (one's on self) problems. And yes, having children is not a right and just something to do because one has enough time to procreate.

A good country would put up some kind of safety nets to help people in needed situations, even if it is not a right to have children.

This all sounds good if you are Thai and rich, but what about the other 90% of the population, should they have any say?

Everyone has a 100% say in the decisions they make. Every single human being on this planet is part of a genetic line that was at one time a poor hunter/gatherer. It's the decisions that they made all along the way that put them where they are now. Are you saying that nature's '"laws" are unfair and unjust somehow?

:

There is for sure some rich people in the world that actually did something real for their money, however, you don't find many of them in Thailand.

I let you get last word, assume that is important for you!

So Heng, it's nice to get the views of an educated That citizen on this matters. I try to sum it up a bit.

So the "fishing net look a like" laws and regulations on foreign owned business in Thailand doesn't have anything to do with fear of competition, and fear that the Thai worker starts to think outside the box. It's all about that foreign company's only use cheap Thai labor, without giving anything back to the community. Thai company's on the other hand are good because they don't sack workers, as they are all "luk nongs".

Education should be dealt with in anyones home, (beside socials, maths and geography). The government and citizens does not have any responsibility to get the masses educated, one should only care for one self and the family. Any sort of help should be classified as "handouts", and that would not benefit anyone, beside the taker. It's the poors own fault that they are undereducated, should have been born with rich parents with money saved in the bank.

If a poor family split up with kids, it's their own fault, shouldn't have kids in first place. It's nothing wrong with the responsibility laws in Thailand regarding child care. The mother or father with the kids to feed and educate, only have them self to blame?! Before they had the kids, they should save up some of all that money they are making here working, instead of buying food, toilette articles and other unnecessary stuff.

This all sounds good if you are Thai and rich, but what about the other 90% of the population, should they have any say?

Nationalism can be good or bad. An example of bad nationalism is when it's used as a tool to keep people down, and never give them any fair chance!

You're still not explaining how nationalism is being used here. A few examples of how it's used as a tool to keep people down and how people aren't being given a fair chance would be nice.

I think you know very well what I mean regarding nationalism, for example, it is really interesting about all this trillions of laws and regulations regarding foreign investment in this country. Who made up all this regulations, and exactly who benefits from all this regulations?? Sure it's not the average factory worker who benefits from Thailands blockage of competition The nationalism seems to just be used only when it comes to protect a few from "evil" competition, but when it comes to responsibility for the average citizen, it's not important with nationalism any more, nationalism is suddenly exchanged by "each for their own" and "blame your self" Again, evil competition could raise salary's, and could lead to that people got educated.

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? ???

My contention is that when you provide for your own family, you're already doing better than the gov't can ever do. If anything, that should be the main focus of any gov't. Promoting self sufficiency and reducing the amount of handouts.

And were did I or anyone else state something else?? I agree with you on this point!

Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

I don't know if there is less layoffs in Thailand then most other places. If there is, an explanation could be, that a company's greatest resource (workers), are so underpaid that there is no money to save, to lay them off. Most first world countries will have to help people who loose their job, not just kick them out, so you do not just fire workers without reasons!

Illogical. There's always money to be saved. But they don't do it. Employees here enjoy much more stable employment security than a lot of places in the world, and that's even through economic downturns. It might not be enough remuneration for everyone to own their own home, but they certainly don't have to worry about not having enough to eat either. What we did at our speaker factory post-97 was reduce everyone's shifts to where everyone still had a job (and bellies full), but just working less. Laws or in some cases union regs in other countries would have prevented this because it would be that almost everyone would be working beneath a "minimum" pay level or amount of hours worked. Great, so it would have meant axing a % of the workforce so that the remaining % would still be "up to standards."

The only reason you don't layoff underpaid workers, is because they are the company's greatest resource, without them you have to close, if you don't want to get your own hands dirty! Your factory would stand still without anyone working, thats why you shouldn't see it as your own factory, your staff have a part in it to. Good nationalism is to ride out storms together

Yes, you are right, Thailand is not enough by my standards, and I would say the majority of Thais would agree with me! Yes, I agree with you, all parents should take care of their children, but everything is not white or black. A good start to take good care of your children would be to have the time for it, hard to have time over after 12 hours work, 6 days a week in locations far from home! Also as you know, if one parent leave the family, there is no protection at all for the parent left with the children. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place, but that's how it is! When it comes to government schemes and education programs you are totally wrong, and there is a lot of country's on this planet to prove it (US might not be one of them)! A lot of country's helps their citizens trough education needs and other needs if necessary, and this country's are a lot more well off then Thailand. Maybe they can't claim to have the richest person in the world or the richest family in the world, but as a whole country, they are normally VERY wealth compared!

All you're *seeing* is people who aren't successful by your standards and assuming it's someone else's fault other than their own. "But that's how it is" is no excuse for having children when you can't afford it (whether in money or in time). It's no excuse for the breakdown of nuclear families.

Read above again!

So were does the famous Thai nationalism fit in in this frase? Seems to me more like "each for their own". You know Heng, I don't think anyone want you to give all your money away, or become poor again. I think what most here try to say, is that the well-off's together with the not so well off, should try to widen their mind and spectrum a little and not just work hard and be smart for them self, in their own little spot, but instead work together for a better nation. That would benefit all your society, also the well off's. This is what most here would call good nationalism.

Not sure what Thai nationalism has to do with this discussion.

Nationalism can be good or bad. An example of bad nationalism is when it's used as a tool to keep people down, and never give them any fair chance!

What makes you think that providing the best one can provide for one's own family and providing employment and sometimes educational opportunities for the masses isn't good for the nation? ???

Ever notice how there are rarely any mass layoffs here (and that's despite the fact that there aren't even any unions to worry about), no matter how many economists -both real and the armchair version you find on forums like these- are crying out that the sky is falling?

I don't know if there is less layoffs in Thailand then most other places. If there is, an explanation could be, that a company's greatest resource (workers), are so underpaid that there is no money to save, to lay them off. Most first world countries will have to help people who loose their job, not just kick them out, so you do not just fire workers without reasons!

Or is it somehow 'not enough' for your own standards? I guarantee you that if every two parents took care of their own two children to the best of their ability, one wouldn't even have to dream up crazy gov't schemes and educational programs to unravel the ball of twine that develops when millions of people don't do so.

Yes, you are right, Thailand is not enough by my standards, and I would say the majority of Thais would agree with me! Yes, I agree with you, all parents should take care of their children, but everything is not white or black. A good start to take good care of your children would be to have the time for it, hard to have time over after 12 hours work, 6 days a week in locations far from home! Also as you know, if one parent leave the family, there is no protection at all for the parent left with the children. Yeah, maybe they shouldn't have children in the first place, but that's how it is! When it comes to government schemes and education programs you are totally wrong, and there is a lot of country's on this planet to prove it (US might not be one of them)! A lot of country's helps their citizens trough education needs and other needs if necessary, and this country's are a lot more well off then Thailand. Maybe they can't claim to have the richest person in the world or the richest family in the world, but as a whole country, they are normally VERY wealth compared!

Your whole argument seems to be 'not fair, you're not sharing.' And 'I call a do over and no take backs.' I certainly concede that mine can be summed up as 'If you earn it, you should be able to decide where you spend it.'

So were does the famous Thai nationalism fit in in this frase? Seems to me more like "each for their own". You know Heng, I don't think anyone want you to give all your money away, or become poor again. I think what most here try to say, is that the well-off's together with the not so well off, should try to widen their mind and spectrum a little and not just work hard and be smart for them self, in their own little spot, but instead work together for a better nation. That would benefit all your society, also the well off's. This is what most here would call good nationalism.

my lady's grand parents were born in china and came to thailand with nothing. she spoke Chinese and french and not thai on arrival so i guess she was from somewhere close to laos. she had 12 children, all in thailand. of the 12, id say that 3 would be considered wealthy, 6 middle class, and 3 poor. so its not like every single Thai Chinese person is living in a 'castle'. i dont know the exact history or how many chinese came to bangkok with a bag of gold and how many came with no bag at all, but my ladies grand parents came with nothing and they now own several shop houses in a prominent area. so at least some of the Thai Chinese 'earned' it.

I can only speak for my self, but my posts was not meant to be some Chinese bashing (they are famous for their hard work etics and smartness). I was talking about poor and rich (nevermind race or religion), and that I don't think it's right that the majority of the population in Thailand should need to be under educated. Thailand can afford education for all, just a question about priority's.

Seems to me that the Chinese elite (and the military elite) send their children to private school away from Thailand if possible, and if they spend too much money on educating the non-chinese, where will they get their endless supply of maids, taxi drivers, gardeners and other cheap labour from?? Too much education could be a dangerous thing and upset the status quo. The last thing we want is the underclasses demanding thier equal share of prosperity. For example, if the farmers learn to do multiplication sums, they will demand fair prices for their rice etc. Oh no no no no no.....

So it's the responsibility of Thai Chinese parents to educate other people's children?

Good Heng, you just gave one of the reasons why the Thai education looks like it does But don't worry, you don't need to care about your fellow country men, better stay 3rd world. After all, you already have your US education, and we do not want to loose that advantage over the masses, do we

There you go, baanthale, as usual you're turning a blind eye to reality.

So what "advantage" did the first and subsequent generations of relatively *uneducated* Thai-Chinese have (you, know, the ones who managed to gain control of the entire economy from the ground up)? Even if all of the relatively few Thai Chinese (my guess would be no greater than 15,000-20,000 per year) who do send their children abroad to further their education stopped doing so, do you think the playing field that the *uneducated* Thai Chinese already own would somehow become more "equal?"

Who's turning a blind eye to reality?? Just exit you castle, and you will see reality outside. I do not begrudge Thai people to get an education abroad, but I would also like to see the big masses in Thailan having a chance to get a decent education. I understand that everyone can not have exactly the same standard in the world, I also know that it could be alot better for most in Thailand with a little effort. As I said before, in the end it's all about how you want your country developed

Seems to me that the Chinese elite (and the military elite) send their children to private school away from Thailand if possible, and if they spend too much money on educating the non-chinese, where will they get their endless supply of maids, taxi drivers, gardeners and other cheap labour from?? Too much education could be a dangerous thing and upset the status quo. The last thing we want is the underclasses demanding thier equal share of prosperity. For example, if the farmers learn to do multiplication sums, they will demand fair prices for their rice etc. Oh no no no no no.....

So it's the responsibility of Thai Chinese parents to educate other people's children?

Good Heng, you just gave one of the reasons why the Thai education looks like it does But don't worry, you don't need to care about your fellow country men, better stay 3rd world. After all, you already have your US education, and we do not want to loose that advantage over the masses, do we

""give them some time", yes, tell that to the PAD. Or maybe you don't mean that the current elected government should be given time?"

Yeah - like anything is going to change - we have only the track record of venal corrupt politicains to go by and it will be more of the same.

If its a half decent guy like Leepak/Abhasit they will be trodden all over and be most ineffectual - the same snouts will still be at the trough from the top to the bottom.

Some posters here need to put Thaksin in a wider context and learn a bit if thai history - he was really just more of the same with populism thrown in.

You are probably right, not much will change, but I prefer a bad elected government over a new coup any day of the week!

Seconded; good post from Seri.

One of the pitfalls that the nation will fall into , is to think that now the big bad monster of corruption is out of the way only the good elements are left. ...........

Who said this?

But I get the impression that finally the judicial system may start to follow up HRH advice and keep doing what they started, but being hampered in their efforts to bring people to justice - because of the crony-system!

Times may change, let wait and see - we are the observers here, observe and enjoy the show unfolding!

So far it looks pretty good!

has a "grand dame" of any politician ever been tried before?

Have ever been such questions asked?

Was there ever been a genuine assets examining agency?

Maybe we will have the chance of becoming the witnesses of some assertive action and change here in the Kingdom of Thailand!

But, Please give'em some time!

and this ....

Yes.

Why should he be any different?

He should be sent back to Thailand for the Thai courts to decide.

It will be a bad day for UK justice if his extradition is refused.

Suggest you do a little homework.If it comes to extradition proceedings it will need to be decided in a British court that the charges facing Thaksin are also applicable in the UK (they're not) and that the courts in Thailand have a record of being scrupulously fair and not politically motivated (they don't).

Younghusband is right. If Taksin were to go on trial it is obvious he would not get a fair trial as recognised in the west. This is an undeniable FACT ! His defence would be barred from calling any witnesses who had benefited from a backhander. Military figures would refuse to co operate.....in short it would be a kangaroo court organised by a lynch mob. All of the crimes laid against Taksin have been commited by legions of other leading politicians and the military govournments have on several occasions sanctioned the shooting of pro democracy demonstrators. None of them have been called to account. No, you put your hand in the till, grab what you can then step aside for the next bent politician to have his turn. This sort of corruption runs right through to village level..its nothing new. Taksin is not being castigated for his crooked business practices which are the norm rather than the exception, nor his human rights abuses. His cardinal sin was to threaten the ' old school '. His off the cuff remarks about having certain VERY influential people in his pocket sewed the seeds of his own demise. These things cannot be discussed on ThaiVisa....much less talked about openly or dragged through the courts.

Reads like straight from the ex-PM's PR office...

Cangaroo Court, Lynch Mob...

and..others did so all the time before...

Taksin is not being castigated for his crooked business practices which are the norm rather than the exception, nor his human rights abuses. His cardinal sin was to threaten the ' old school '.

he is innocent, because he "threatened" the "wrong" people and with the massive tax avasion, the "war on drugs" extra judical killings, the land deal (only one third of its value paid) and, and, and... was all "manufactured" by his opponents to "kill" his reputation as such a wonderful leader who brought only good to the poor, the country in general and is absolutely loyal to the king - he never ever mentioned "republic"... all amde to topple him and bring him down - because they ALL envy his wealth and cannot stand his incredible popularity!

YESSSSSSSSSS SIRRRRRRRRR!

But sorry, I am harboring some daubts about the truth in there... since this man coined the phrase "honest lie" it's stand clear that he doesn't care about truth, honesty and sincerity - but MONEY, INFLUENCE, MEDDLING, POWER, MANIPULATION, SILENCING the PRESS and MEDIA!

the list is long and HE was the one who wrote the lines, NOT his "OPPONENTS"!

"give them some time", yes, tell that to the PAD. Or maybe you don't mean that the current elected government should be given time?

Yes.

Why should he be any different?

He should be sent back to Thailand for the Thai courts to decide.

It will be a bad day for UK justice if his extradition is refused.

Suggest you do a little homework.If it comes to extradition proceedings it will need to be decided in a British court that the charges facing Thaksin are also applicable in the UK (they're not) and that the courts in Thailand have a record of being scrupulously fair and not politically motivated (they don't).

Younghusband is right. If Taksin were to go on trial it is obvious he would not get a fair trial as recognised in the west. This is an undeniable FACT ! His defence would be barred from calling any witnesses who had benefited from a backhander. Military figures would refuse to co operate.....in short it would be a kangaroo court organised by a lynch mob. All of the crimes laid against Taksin have been commited by legions of other leading politicians and the military govournments have on several occasions sanctioned the shooting of pro democracy demonstrators. None of them have been called to account. No, you put your hand in the till, grab what you can then step aside for the next bent politician to have his turn. This sort of corruption runs right through to village level..its nothing new. Taksin is not being castigated for his crooked business practices which are the norm rather than the exception, nor his human rights abuses. His cardinal sin was to threaten the ' old school '. His off the cuff remarks about having certain VERY influential people in his pocket sewed the seeds of his own demise. These things cannot be discussed on ThaiVisa....much less talked about openly or dragged through the courts.

Indeed, very good post Bangyai.

Also, suppose the very influential people you refer to, didn't have a choice. Could have been told to choose side, to keep the calm and avoid possible blood sheed.

If I want to draw attention to one point from the post, I quote that point. There's no need to quote any other stuff, I'm not commenting on that. So I was right You are willing to pick out pieces from anyones posts, and just change meanings of it. Not a fair player.

No matter how many times you read the whole post, parts of the post, right to left or from bottom up - YH's proposal to use Chinese methods to control dissent is a surprising admission of what he thinks should be a fair way to deal with PAD.

You know, I think he wanted to say that democracy is good, very good, but it's not all about rights, it also includes responsibility, and even you should admit that PAD are not really good at the responsibility bit!