baanthale

Would it change anything? I don't see how.

Not change anything? Why did you not quote the full post then? If you don't understand, maybe you should read his post one more time. But I know your strategy by now, not listen to anyone, just continue PAD rally.

.Perhaps the government should take a leaf out of the Chinese Governments book and find some form of...

How's that for honesty! Way to go, Younghusband.

Last year the junta appointed NLA rejected this bill, btw, they were worried about lost freedoms, something obviously lost on you in your search for "democracy".

How about you learn how to quote someones posts? Not ripping out a half sentence of text in the middle of a content. At least use full sentences!

Its curious how many people loathe Taksin, both Thais and Foreigners. And yet it wasn't so long ago that under the Suchinda ' govournment ' ( ? ) soldiers and police were shooting pro democracy demonstrators in the streets. The current prime minister, Mr Samak is on record as saying that there was only 1 death during these demonstrations, an awful slap in the face to anyone who lost a loved one. If Mr Taksin is to be held to account for his corrupt leadership shouldn't people also be demanding justice for those killed during the last coup. However, if you mention this to many Thais there answer is likely to be '....don't go there '. Its a taboo subject if you value your safety.

To call a Thai politician corrupt, is, as Martin Sheen put it, ' like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500 '. To be corrupt is almost a prerequisit if you want to get ahead in local politics. And has anybody who reads the Bangkok Post noticed that from time to time there is a free supplement anouncing the opening of a new factory somewhere. Inside there will be a ' family tree ' of the company executives and perched on the top branches there is nearly always a General this or that. They seem to have expertise in just about everything, from making cars to turning out furniture. Wonderfully useful.

But now it appears that one family, Mr Taksins is responsible for all the ills in the country and if only he can be stripped of his fortune and locked away everything will be roses roses. Dream on. Until EVERYONE in a position of public responsibility is held to account there will continue to be roller coaster politics with the rich and influential playing musical chairs while the poor keep the country going.

You my friend speak the true, unfortunately you also speak to deaf ears. It's not about justice, it's about power and money changing hands, and about how to continue to hold the poor down.

I see Coward the Great is nothing but a simple eunuch with no testicles filing defamation charges while he's in hiding abroad. Hiiiaaaa.

But I'm sure he is man enough to deal with his neighbors dog if needed. Also sure he's man enough to drive his car, without using his wife as a private chauffeur

The first 10 years I spent here, was under the Dem's. goverm.

10 years under Democrat government? What (or when) are you talking about?

Yeah, very sorry, should read nearly 10 years

3/ I am correct! We have a right hand government if you see it with your Swedish values, and thats because there is little difference between them now days. If you ask most Americans, yes, everything in Europe would be socialists (or communists), but thats not true, as you know, our welfare and political system is not comparable to the US. Our current government cuts taxes and cuts welfare, can't really call that socialists.

Oh, and so you know, they haven't cut welfare for most people.

So you agree in some level that welfare have been cut And I also suppose you now taxes has been cut! I did not say Werther I thought it to be good or not, and I did not say Werther I think unemployed people in Sweden are lazy or not. Thats all your opinions, and do not matter in this case. You can't call a government in Sweden, per definition socialist, if they cut taxes and cut welfare.

This does not have anything to do with this topic, so I rest my case from here.

A couple of months ago one of my guest came back from the full moon... only dressed in a towel !

what...! no full moon.....?

2/I also never said that current government have done a great job so far. It's the fault of PAD and the democrats, that we need to have this government now, don't blame me!

3/I am no socialist, and if you knew anything about the outside of the Us, you would also know that we do not have a socialist government in Sweden at the moment.

2) The PAD makes the government waste money, the economy falter and the hurricane hit Burma... that is your balanced view?

3) Yes, we do. They are called Socialist-light for a reason and won because they took the same platform as the rightleaning-socialists under GP was running with the years before while pointing out that it could be better...

But make no mistake, they are NOT close to right-leaning in the right sense of the word. And far from Libertarian.

But I digress...

2/ I honestly do not understand what you talk about. I said that it is the fault of PAD and the Dem's. that we have PPP instead of TRT in government right now. For me, the Dem's. are not an alternative, as I do not trust them to deliver anything good for the average Thai voter. The first 10 years I spent here, was under the Dem's. goverm. All of them was selected from the south or Bangkok area, and they didn't deliver shit! Yes, they delivered for the people in south and around Bangkok, as the politicians from there had to keep their promises for their voters. South and Bangkok filled there already full pockets, as there was nothing to spend money on in areas. The poor rural majority didn't get any economic or other help at all. This is Why the Dem's do not get enough votes today, the majority do not trust them, and that includes me! Maybe you understand now why the Dem's get all thier votes from the south or Bangkok, has nothing to do with education or intelligens (or maybe it has). TRT and Thaksin may be corrupt as he!!, but it is not important for the majority, as they look for delivery. You can call it hand-outs or what ever you want, but medical scems, village funds and student loans are better then nothing! My own experience with TRT in my life and day to day business, is that it was less tea money, and more clear directives in my province at least.

3/ I am correct! We have a right hand government if you see it with your Swedish values, and thats because there is little difference between them now days. If you ask most Americans, yes, everything in Europe would be socialists (or communists), but thats not true, as you know, our welfare and political system is not comparable to the US. Our current government cuts taxes and cuts welfare, can't really call that socialists.

Don't need to digress, just be polite

Thailand's tax fraud verdict marks 'new trend'

While Thaksin may be on the ropes, this in no way starts a trend on stamping out corruption. Thai law is still based on codified law only. There are no legal precedents created when decisions are rendered. Each time it is up to the interpretation of the judge and interpretations change as rarely are two cases exactly alike.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the common law has changed with regards to legal precedents; because with regards to statute, the law is the law.

Rather that it is now acceptable and possible to go after 'big fish' because let's face it this is about as big as has come up in recent years.

I know it sounds like I am just being cynical, but going forward I will believe it when I see it. To me, I think it will revert right back to business a usual. Similar court cases will depend on which side of the fence you are on. Clearly, Thaksin was on the wrong side.

I agree with you. That's what many here said from the start, it's just theatre. No end of any corruption, only if you are on the wrong side, for the other once business as usual.

Thailand taxation and welfare follows the US model, not Swedish, and it's not about to change anytime soon.

Income gap is also similar to that of the US, too.

And for those who think revolution is around the corner - the current government that is supposed to provide more welfare is hel_l bent on lowering the taxes, not increasing them. We've heard about VAT decrease from 7 to 3%, and more recently corporate income tax cut from 30 to 25%.

The poor landless farmers in Isan can watch on TV how Bangkokians enjoy free rides paid with Isanese VAT, they can check how well off among the Isanese themselves enjoy low gasohol prices for their sedans, paid with Isanese VAT, too, and how those who can afford only pickups have to pay still higher prices for diesel.

They won't get to watch how corporations celebrate their tax cuts - no cameras at corporate junkets and parties, but they can be assured - they will spend this money with utmost pleasure, money that were supposed to pay for education and welfare.

So far this year the government that cares spend an equivalent of four years of education for every child on various "stimulus" measures that stimulate only consumption, not savings and investments.

1/I suppose your post was for me? I never said that Thailands welfare system follows any Swedish model!? I said that it isn't good enough! I would also like to see everyone having a chance to get education, that would benefit Thailand.

2/I also never said that current government have done a great job so far. It's the fault of PAD and the democrats, that we need to have this government now, don't blame me!

3/I am no socialist, and if you knew anything about the outside of the Us, you would also know that we do not have a socialist government in Sweden at the moment.

Regarding the income gaps in Thailand, I am sure the min. pay in the Us is higher than 3 $ a day? I do not believe in any "revolution" in Thailand, but I believe that with going inflation and low incomes, the majotity of Thailand will say stop sooner or later. And as you know from elections, the majority have much influence on happenings.

Putting down the crack pipe/bottle of Sangsom/and putting off those trips to Fueng Far Cafe & Karaoke/not buying that Hilux Vigo or Honda Dream before you own some real estate, etc. is also a good move if you don't want to remain poor forever. Plenty of time left to pick up those habits again when you can afford it.

Times will change, things will change even here, and believe me Heng, you can't do anything about it. The only thing you can do, is to extend that Wall around your property

Right, since they will have saved money during these 6 months to offset the increased cost they have to cover for the next 5 years...or maybe some of them have won the lottery and will share with everyone else that is poor...?

Teach a man to fish...

You are right, teach the poor by holding their head under water, should not try to help in any way Each for them self, It's not my problem exactlly like you learnd in your own welfare state

And no, I'm not talking about "cut down money on three's", I'm talking about a little sharing, humanity and equality. Letting people who can afford it, to pay taxes like they should, instead off buying Benz cars to show off. It's not only the poor in Thailand who need's education, also the rich needs education in proper behavior and fairness to their own.

Put down the crack pipe and realize that 6 months won't change it for these people in the long run.

I'm worried for them for real, you are just cheering subsidies.

In good mood on a monday morning Didn't catch any fish over the weekend? Good arguments! I think you and me are done with the talking.

one only has to look at most of the northern european countries and their socialist governments to see a long established and well developed culture of dependance among the poorest

One most certainly will find that same culture in many parts of the US as well, in my experience in several areas of Texas, where many folks are having the max number of kids they can have because of the tax, welfare, etc. benefits.

Common belives from the independent well off's, that they are the only once that contributes, and everyone else are just cheaters who use the system. But then one day, they jump out of luck, and they will be first in the cue to claim their benefits

taught me an high level of compassion and humanity to others,

thats fine , so long as your compassion and humanity are directed at those who really need it and will benefit from it , as opposed to those who , through their own laziness and lack of morality and direction , aim ( and often succeed) in manipulating others to provide for them. one only has to look at most of the northern european countries and their socialist governments to see a long established and well developed culture of dependance among the poorest , with all that goes along with it .... a total lack of ambition , a culture of "i know my rights" , and the punitive taxation regimes directed against those who actually get out there and invest their savings by opening businesses and offering employment.

necessity has always been the mother of invention , and notwithstanding free train tickets , healthcare and education , throwing money at "the poor" rarely does anything to help them move up the ladder.

as another poster said , dont give them fish , but teach them how to catch their own.

"Taxexile", yeah somehow I can understand why you don't like our tax system and welfare system. Maybe we are all lazy and dependent on the system, but it seems to work quite well

Agreed, all is relative. I do not try to avoid the discussion, we just have so different values on this things I think. Blame my north European upbringing Anyhow, I am glad that my parents and my society taught me an high level of compassion and humanity to others, and I am also happy to still keep that thinking after 20 years in Thailand. It's enough people looking down on others and taking advantages of them already, we do not need more of that in the world! That's just how I see things

Hopefully your compassion and humanity isn't just limited to talking about compassion and humanity.

"It's enough people looking down on others" And what do you call your post #15 (yeah, that's not an attempt at a condescending post).

I do agree in life that there are those who take advantage of others, and by the same token for each and every instance there is someone who allows themselves to be taken advantage of. There are those who have more and there are those who have nothing. There are those who take control their fate and there are those who just sit around waiting for life to happen to them.

That's how I see things.

You must have misunderstood my post 15#, I didn't look down on anyone, I just stated a fact. A country were almost all the assets are holded by 10% of the population, and the rest are living on near to nothing will not be seen as a welfare state.

Regarding limits on compassion and humanity, I do not say it's good enough, but only one (1) small city in my country, of totally 9 million people, took care of more Iraqi refugee's than whole USA and Canada together under and after the Iraq invasion, and we did not even attend in this war

Tell you what, next time you pass some construction site in your area, you should take that discussion with the workers there and get their opinions. Yes, I mean the once that works min. 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, carrying concrete around for a whooping 180 baht a day ! Maybe they will listen to your, "you control your destiny hallelujah", if they have the time

Have done that more than a few times, not in the A.C. Nielson survey style you suggest though, as we have construction workers on the payroll pretty much all year round. The majority just tread water (not unlike the same way you'll find some/many people at ALL income levels treading water). Their income goes toward drink, gambling, zero to shelter (why should it? as we shelter them... I suppose that's the logic anyway), just about zero to food (why should it? the boss pays for most of our food is the reason there), and believe it or not, many find the time to actually go to the bottom tier brothels around town in their meagre spare time.

A very slim minority... not unlike the "10-20%" mentioned above, at least in principle, not in overall wealth of course take their income, save it/invest it, and delay gratification for their long term benefit. No, they aren't buying up property off of Sukhuvit or Thepprasit Rd., but some are buying entire rai sized plots and building homes in Laos and Kampuchea @ 15,000 Baht a rai. But that's exactly what they SHOULD be doing with their relatively low income. I have a former maid in that category. We have a former motorcycle messenger that now owns a couple of rotee pushcarts. Another is a nanny in the extended family who has actually managed to complete high school and is now attending commercial college through suksa-pooyai (the local equivalent of night school). A former sales executive who left us about a decade ago now has two million Baht key money booths in Chatuchak doing a thriving business in sheets/pillow cases/bedding, etc. Life's not exactly fair, but you do actually have a lot of say in which direction it's headed.

People just need to be realistic and some people should probably tone down their 'life is unfair, the man has me down' way of thinking. I don't realistically think that I'll ever own a multinational company, a private island, or have a private jet... in the same way that the guy who is hauling bags of cement around our construction site probably shouldn't be dreaming of owning XX+ properties and several local businesses employing hundreds. It's a certainty though that there are plenty of comfortable alternatives in between those 'extremes.'

No, life is not always fair, and that's okay. But when we are talking about income differences in Thailand, we are not talking about fairness anymore, we are talking about inhumanity. Guess I did the right thing when I "controlled my destiny", born and raised outside Thailand

Way to avoid the discussion, Baanthale.

It's all relative. It's easy to take one's own personal standards, apply them to others and assume they are suffering. It's just as easy to look at those who are better off and try to imagine that they are somehow to blame for one's own status in life:

Look at those poor people walking to work 7 days a week, 12 hours a day. Look at those poor people with half empty shopping carts. Look at those poor people who live in rented studio apartments. Look at those poor people on the bus. Look at all those poor people at the back of the plane. Look at those poor people in the general passenger lounge. Look at those poor people who have to use the commercial airport terminal. And so forth...

Agreed, all is relative. I do not try to avoid the discussion, we just have so different values on this things I think. Blame my north European upbringing Anyhow, I am glad that my parents and my society taught me an high level of compassion and humanity to others, and I am also happy to still keep that thinking after 20 years in Thailand. It's enough people looking down on others and taking advantages of them already, we do not need more of that in the world! That's just how I see things

Tell you what, next time you pass some construction site in your area, you should take that discussion with the workers there and get their opinions. Yes, I mean the once that works min. 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, carrying concrete around for a whooping 180 baht a day ! Maybe they will listen to your, "you control your destiny hallelujah", if they have the time

Have done that more than a few times, not in the A.C. Nielson survey style you suggest though, as we have construction workers on the payroll pretty much all year round. The majority just tread water (not unlike the same way you'll find some/many people at ALL income levels treading water). Their income goes toward drink, gambling, zero to shelter (why should it? as we shelter them... I suppose that's the logic anyway), just about zero to food (why should it? the boss pays for most of our food is the reason there), and believe it or not, many find the time to actually go to the bottom tier brothels around town in their meagre spare time.

A very slim minority... not unlike the "10-20%" mentioned above, at least in principle, not in overall wealth of course take their income, save it/invest it, and delay gratification for their long term benefit. No, they aren't buying up property off of Sukhuvit or Thepprasit Rd., but some are buying entire rai sized plots and building homes in Laos and Kampuchea @ 15,000 Baht a rai. But that's exactly what they SHOULD be doing with their relatively low income. I have a former maid in that category. We have a former motorcycle messenger that now owns a couple of rotee pushcarts. Another is a nanny in the extended family who has actually managed to complete high school and is now attending commercial college through suksa-pooyai (the local equivalent of night school). A former sales executive who left us about a decade ago now has two million Baht key money booths in Chatuchak doing a thriving business in sheets/pillow cases/bedding, etc. Life's not exactly fair, but you do actually have a lot of say in which direction it's headed.

People just need to be realistic and some people should probably tone down their 'life is unfair, the man has me down' way of thinking. I don't realistically think that I'll ever own a multinational company, a private island, or have a private jet... in the same way that the guy who is hauling bags of cement around our construction site probably shouldn't be dreaming of owning XX+ properties and several local businesses employing hundreds. It's a certainty though that there are plenty of comfortable alternatives in between those 'extremes.'

No, life is not always fair, and that's okay. But when we are talking about income differences in Thailand, we are not talking about fairness anymore, we are talking about inhumanity. Guess I did the right thing when I "controlled my destiny", born and raised outside Thailand

The majority of the 10 % rich, sorry

You mean the 10% who employ (clothe, feed, and shelter) the other 90%?

Or the same 10% who insure that certain large portions of the other 90% have few options other than to migrate into the cities to live in slums to be cheap labor and of course to provide affordable oral gratification, as explored in Stephen Frear's excellent small film 'Dirty Pretty Things'.

Ah yes, making excuses for those who chose 'sanuk in the moment' over work, saving, investing, and 'overall sanuk for all time.' You control your own destiny. What you keep spouting is 'someone else keeps controlling my destiny.'

Tell you what, next time you pass some construction site in your area, you should take that discussion with the workers there and get their opinions. Yes, I mean the once that works min. 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, carrying concrete around for a whooping 180 baht a day ! Maybe they will listen to your, "you control your destiny hallelujah", if they have the time

The majority of the 10 % rich, sorry

You mean the 10% who employ (clothe, feed, and shelter) the other 90%?

I suppose that's a way to look at it to, if you still want the rest of the world to see your country as part of the 3rd world

The majority of the 10 % rich, sorry

And all I am saying is that if it's JUSTICE we are looking for, there should be a lot more people in these court rooms, not only the Thaksins.

When Democrats were embroiled in a petty land scandal in Phuket they resigned themselves. and set a standard.

Did they have a choice? You sound like they resigned due to their goodness. As I understand it, it was due to that Chuan appointed one of the land scandal attendents to be a minister in their government, and that only a few day's after scandal came out! As I see it, they had to resign!

That was a standard to follow - one minister embroiled in scandal, the cabinet resigns. That scandal has never even left the newspaper pages, there were no people on the streets and no court cases.

By comparison half of the current cabinet are either convicts or court defendants and Samak keeps on appointing people with a shaky legal status, let alone bruised public image.

There's simply no comparison.

Also please note the power of the independent media under Democrats, compare this to multibillion lawsuits Thaksin used to shut them up, or Samak's use of NBT to broadcast his political propaganda, a program run by people standing a court trial for inciting violence, nonetheless.

I'm not typing this for your benefit, you are surely aware of all these facts, but for the people who might not know the background, if happened nearly fifteen years ago. I don't want to leave your gross distortion of history unanswered.

It was you who brought the case up, not me Yes, no protests on the streets, nobody wanted to pay for protests? Other times, other rules Democrats all saints

And all I am saying is that if it's JUSTICE we are looking for, there should be a lot more people in these court rooms, not only the Thaksins.

When Democrats were embroiled in a petty land scandal in Phuket they resigned themselves. and set a standard.

Did they have a choice? You sound like they resigned due to their goodness. As I understand it, it was due to that Chuan appointed one of the land scandal attendents to be a minister in their government, and that only a few day's after scandal came out! As I see it, they had to resign! Looks like a typical case of "we see what we like to see, and not really like things really are" Nevermind, I know your views on this, and I do not share them.

I live in Phuket and if thats the case I know off it was not quite what was reported...

I donot want to get back into it but essentially several of the current goverment guys were also involved...

Yeah, if you live on Phuket, you should know Maybe you should double check it, as I understand Chuan even announced the land thiefs promotion to minister on national Tv

And all I am saying is that if it's JUSTICE we are looking for, there should be a lot more people in these court rooms, not only the Thaksins.

When Democrats were embroiled in a petty land scandal in Phuket they resigned themselves. and set a standard.

Did they have a choice? You sound like they resigned due to their goodness. As I understand it, it was due to that Chuan appointed one of the land scandal attendents to be a minister in their government, and that only a few day's after scandal came out! As I see it, they had to resign! Looks like a typical case of "we see what we like to see, and not really like things really are" Nevermind, I know your views on this, and I do not share them.

Well I guess the conviction for tax evasion, along with other things accomplished by the Thaksin family will put them on par with other famous people from around the world, Al Capone, Vatanna, Marcos, etc.

And all I am saying is that if it's JUSTICE we are looking for, there should be a lot more people in these court rooms, not only the Thaksins. Thailand will still be as corrupt tomorrow, the money just change hands!

So a theif is not a theif until he get's caught, nevermind everyone know he's stealing

I don't know that Sondhi or Chamlong are stealing anything. Thaksin tried to legally get Sondhi and his ASTV while he was still a PM. There was nothing.

No one is even calling them "thieves".

Sondhi has lost at least one defamation case, btw. Is it fair enough for you?

I think we're looking at another case of "sunrise syndrome"...

perhaps the treatment for the malady should be the same.

Nice post So you reached that level now? I'm quite sure that even you two, sooner or later, will understand that Thailands social and political problems goes a little deeper than just the Thaksin family