baanthale

I knew it, it would come You people have spoken about vote buying done by PPP and TRT since years here in post after post. When someone asked how you know, answer have been Iv'e heard it or my sisters kusin saw it. Now when someone says that the PAD cronies pays people to join, we hear that it must be wrong, and that someone saw it, it's not good enough No, no, the PAD and the Democrates are all made up of saints It's beyond me how enyone can be so naive

The PAD want a better Thailand and I totally support that

I think you have been fooled. I would sugest reading this:

Time for PAD's moderates to speak out - if there are any

Pravit Rojanaphruk , The Nation

18 July 2008

Are there any moderates left in the anti-Thaksin Shinawatra People's Alliance for Democracy?

It may be wishful thinking to expect a few, or even one, given the daily bombardment of one-sided information and news the group prescribes itself. But if there are any left they should wake up, smell the coffee and recognise that the alliance is now doing too much damage to democracy. And they should do something to rectify it, instead of keeping silent and hoping that it's enough to simply be on the supposedly "virtuous" side.

Earlier this week, the PAD supremo threatened to surround the compound of the Army chief. This is part of the ongoing desperate move to agitate the Army into intervening in politics again, as if September 2006 didn't do enough damage. The PAD-mouthpiece radio has also been goading the military on a daily basis to do something about the current political stand-off.

This latest plan came less than two weeks after another PAD leader, Piphob Thongchai, claimed the alliance was against any coup.

Another new PAD move to agitate is to manipulate ultra-nationalist sentiment over the Preah Vihear temple issue between Thailand and Cambodia. The PAD yesterday began a march to the area, risking further the already damaged bilateral sentiment between the peoples of the two nations.

Then we have the PAD's recent proposal for "New Politics" wherein 70 per cent of future members of Parliament should be appointed instead of elected. Finally the real aspiration of the PAD has been revealed, this reflects the alliance's deep distrust of the vast majority of the Thai electorate, which is essentially the vast majority of the Thai people.

The PAD apparently prefers to have national-level decisions made by a handful of people on an unelected committee who will in turn select and appoint the majority of the lower House, not to mention the upper house which is already nearly half-appointed under the junta-sponsored Constitution.

These select few people, this self-appointed elite, will decide who is worthy of representing the people and running the nation's affairs.

Such an idea is the politics of exclusion, which is not just undemocratic but would most probably create a different set of problems, perhaps even worse than that of the alleged corruption and abuse of power by Thaksin and the current administration of Samak Sundaravej, which is believed to be nothing but a proxy of Thaksin.

What's more, the majority of the people will have no say in the failure or success of future administrations - they are being reduced to mere subjects to be ruled by supposedly benign, just and selfless bureaucrats and unelected leaders.

While this new political philosophy claims to help solve the problem of ridding the Parliament of corrupt politicians, there's no guarantee that the supposedly morally astute selection committee would not end up becoming self-serving. And where would the checks and balances be found when the mandate is no longer with the people?

It's a dear mistake for the PAD and its supporters to see elections as a mere dispensable trapping of democracy and not as one indispensable part of a democratic order.

Elections surely are not the be-all and end-all of democratic order, but they are an indispensable part of a democracy, nonetheless.

Voters can and will likely make more mistakes in the future. They may become selfish or short-sighted in their electoral choices, but removing their electoral rights will only reverse the learning process of Thai society.

Without a belief and trust that people can eventually rise above themselves and learn to become better citizens through trial and error, there's no point in talking about democracy.

There's no denying the alleged corruption and abuse of power by Thaksin and his cohorts is very disturbing to say the least, and that it must be dealt with. But the PAD have gone too far in their zero-sum fight against Thaksin that they're now resorting to undermining the very foundation of democratic principle and culture.

If there are any moderates left within the PAD, the time for them to speak out is now.

This issue has nothing to do with PAD or Democrats, Thailand's long standing policy regarding the temple has been undermined. It has implications that go far beyond Bangkok power struggles.

Pravit has been writing in the Nation against PAD since forever, his opinion is nothing new. He usually distorts facts and paints doomsday scenarios that never materialise, and he is as predictable as Sunrise's one-liners.

There's an article in today's BP:

"In the past, Thailand had let Cambodia occupy the 4.6 sq km area for a long time leading Cambodia to believe it owned the land.

Now Thailand had lost 162 stairs at the temple entrance, she said."

"She" is a deputy chairman of the senate commitee.

That claim about 162 steps is interesting. One hand it recognises that stairs is part of the temple, on the other Cambodians now argue that they are not.

What are your resons for this kind of postings, one article is good and the other is no good, because "the guy is famous for his opinions"(witch you don't like). Are you not at all interested to know and hear of other posters and forum readers views on the matters? When I joined here I thought this was a forum for free opinions, but it seems a few here wants to make it a PAD-ofile forum, without any other opinions, very sad

As to the lacking in respect point, many of us come from cultures where respect has to be earned, and is not a given owing to alleged status {or driving a Benz }. I can recall trying, and probably failing, to explain to a Thai friend the complexities of Tony Blair's wife's dismissive attitude to The Queen {mods please note British} after they saw the eponymous movie with Helen Mirren.

Regards

Have it ever occure to you that there is people on this site who don't find much to respect PAD or the Dems for eather, but still do not spend day and night, to dig up crap, witch don't have anything with the politics to do

It has always interested me that on this board anybody who is not an out and out supporter of the Thaksin and Samak governments and who in any way criticises them is immediately labelled a Democrat supporter, a coup supporter, anti-democratic etc etc. There is something lacking in such an analysis.

I agree with you in some ways, but you can easily turn that and say, why do everyone here atomaticly thinks one loves TRT or PPP, only because one doesn't support coups and PAD?

My feeling is that it have always been so much anti Thaksin and anti TRT posts here from a few people, that some only want to answer to be opposite! I mean mass campaines, thread after thread with everything possible digged up about the guy and the party, everything from silly things like how he looks like and all wrongs with his family, to more serious stuff. Just totaly respectless. Can't be easy to carry so much hate. I thinkt he political information here is very one handed

Below is a link to a good article in this morning's BP by William Roth. Roth is an attorney from the US who teaches at Chula. He gives a good overview on the history of this conflict.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/220708_News/22Jul2008_news016.php

Honestly, it was a quite good article, but after all, it's only one individuals opinion!

Here is a interesting blog from the Nation for all you Democrat supporters. A interesting read since its from someone from your electoral heartland.

Permalink : http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/ginola

Wise girl, seems educated as well, but still have a big heart for others, rare combination here I think her opinions should be counted to, even if she is "just one individual"

There's a fact for you - Thai negotiating team didn't accept Cambodian maps and proposals and quit the joint committee negotiating the issue. That was in January this year, prior to Noppadon taking over.

So thats how you want them to solve the issues now! Skip all negotiations and start up the tanks! Sure, maybe they should try out some of all the new wapons they have in stock since the junta, but you know, it's 2008 now, there may be other solutions.

Right hand nationalistic drivel, wiped up by a few with big wigs, to cover and hide the real reasons they have to get rid of elected government!

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

No, I'm sure he tells things like he sees them, (as the former finance minister in a non elected government)

Or a former Central Banker personally appointed by Thaksin. He mentioned FACTS, I'm not talking about his opinions.

And I'm telling you again, there is NO FACTS in this tempel story as long as there is heavy disagrements on the matter, just opinions! Is it hard to understand that the "FACTS" will be different depending on who you ask! And the opinion on that the government is "bending over", is that included in the "facts"? How would you like this government to clear this mess up? On one hand they are to flat, next they are to hard?! All this because a handfull of people want to do the same mistake they already did 2006! Nevermind, i am out.

First PPP breaks as many laws as they can, then they scream "judiocracy". What is "judiocracy" anyway? Rule of law?

Is that what they want to dispense with?

Of course they will never admit that simply following the laws is the best solution to prevent this sort of crisis in the first place.

PPP is trying to initiate "denial of service" attack when the number of cases is so high that the judiciary can't cope with it or consequencies are unacceptable, like dissolution of all political parties.

Which brings us back to PAD "new politics" underlying idea - elected politicians are a total disgrace and the less we have of them, the better, and the underlying reason for that is people who elect them. And these people are not Swiss (in light of the latest post above).

The Democrats were in power for many years.

Three years from 1997 to 2000 and just over a year earlier in the 90s. TRT was in power for six years, previously the same people were in NAP government for two years prior to the crash, before that it was current coalition parnter Banharn and his Chart Thai.

Even when they were in power, they had to deal with the economic crisis and cut on social welfare as was negotiated with IMF by the previous government.

The idea that Democrats never cared about poor was invented by TRT to keep their stronghold on Isan. You don't see poor people of Suphanburi blaming Democrats, or poor people in the South saying that Democrats never did anything for them.

Thats not true. The democrates were head of government between 1992-1995 and 1997 to 2001 when TRT took over!

Sure, the former central bank governor and finance minister just makes this stuff up. He's got nothing better to do than print outright lies.

No, I'm sure he tells things like he sees them, (as the former finance minister in a non elected government) But as a balance to that, there is also other opinions, even if they are not linked here every other second

There was an article in The Nation by Pridiyathorn where he talked in detail about the temple issuse, it was the first part in the series and covered the ground before the new government took over.

Some information has never been disclosed before.

He says that Cambodians argued that the temple was designed to enter via climbing the cliff and Thai entrance was a later addition, they argued that the temple was built according to Buddhist principles and is a part of "five temples on cliffs" design or something.

If they still maintain the same stand it's easy to see why the issue is never going to be resolved - their basic premise is completely opposite to that of Thais, and the rest of the world, apparently.

Previous government negotiating team opposed the unilitateral listing till the very end, btw, including a walkout from talks in the middle of January.

Let's wait and see what he has to say about Noppadon's change of strategy, but for now it looks like the current government has been caught bending over to Cambodians and is suffering the consequences.

There's nothing in it to gain, they are not creating this issue to divert public attention. They'd rather create some other issue to make it go away.

Yeah, the nation tells the world the facts

Blanket assertions regarding what one should or must do in order to live somewhere are pointless I think.

Everyone's case is different.

I am already tri-lingual (in western languages, one being English) and OLD. I am now living in LOS, perhaps not for a very long time as I will either drop dead or move somewhere else.

I have learned a few words and phrases in Thai, but I am simply not willing to invest the amount of time it would take to learn the language.

The most useful language I have ever learned (besides English) is Spanish. That was a good investment of my time as it is the lingua franca of probably more countries than any other modern language. And it enables me to deal with Portuguese and Italian as well.

I learned French whilst living in Montreal and it was easy for me with all the cognates in Spanish and English.

Thai? It is of no use outside of Thailand, even elsewhere in Asia.

Suggesting that knowledge of Thai be a requirement for a retirement visa is Thai-bubble talk.

I think popshirt makes some good points here.

When Thailand starts issuing five year and ten year IMMIGRANT visas to farang, with real property rights and working rights, Westerners without long-term Thai partners can start coming here in droves, learning Thai. Nobody's visa lasts long enough to become fluent this year.

This country is not very stable, politically. The language is useless outside Thailand except for 201 Thai-Japanese-Mandarin-English translators.

Exactly. Thai is of no use outside, and when you are inside, you can't plan for a long term life here. To get a PR and citizen ship would be the first step to be sure about you future here, and the requierments are just redicoulus. Social stautus, family, children, lingo ability etc doesn't count much, only how much money you earn each month! As it is right now most people who have a very good reson for PR and citizenship will not have a chance,(if they don't want to bribe them self through the system, or fake their taxible income each month), but people with absolutly no family or other interests in Thailand can quite easy get a permanent residence if the just have a VERY well paid job.

So whats the deal? Are we happy now, is it a good thing to go to war with combo? Good for Thai people, good for farangs in Thailand making a living, all about a tempel... witch belongs to Cambodia. I hope PAD feels satisfied now, when Thailand is split, and on the way to war. To make problems inside the own comminity is one thing, but to pressure for a war with neighbours is just to much!

I do not think Thais in general thinks it's rude if farangs doesn't handle their lingo, as there is many people staying here for decades without speaking a word. It can be of benefit to handle the lingo if you're looking for PR and citizen ship in the future. But on the other hand it seems you can just bypass qualifications needed like languish and other things, if you just have the right money (and moral) to buy yourself trough the system.

Hi Ray,

Nice art work, and you are right, it is amazing what can be done here for nearly no money at all! What ever your logo means for you is your business, and and I respect that

"Be happy - Be poor" seems to be their message. Meanwhile the rest of their cronys will be spending their "tax savings" at Paragon tomorrow. The craven little pouting daughter brigade spending some of bureaucrat-daddy's ill-gotten booty.

I'll show you one or ten TRT daughters and sons who I've worked with who have that opinion too. The Dems aren't a party of virtuous people by any means, but those who flock to TRT who I've had the pleasure of associating with couldn't give two rats about the poor by a factor of ten compared to the Dems, unless they happen to be on the cover of Tattler magazine pretending to be good honest hi-so's, or it involves handing out blankets during the cold season with a bunch of other hi-so's.

Comments heard from the mouth of babes of the TRT clan (who know Thaksin on a personal basis) include:

- "Hi Samran, like my new Benz, my dad bought it for me..." (TRT bigwig dad had just been found guilty of asset concealment)

- "Of course with higher food prices (bought about by ethanol production) poor people are going to starve, but thats the way these things go"

- or "poor people aren't ready yet to be parliamentarians" (in disagreement that all thais - not only the ones with university degrees should be allowed to run for parliament)

I've also seen children of their cronies running money losing stores in BKK in an attempt to launder their parents ill-gotten gains. Or they just keep it offshore...

Old man river has hit in on the head - the Dems are a viticim of their own bad publicity and their high fullutin policy solutions designed to bring about both fiscal discipline in a framework of social democracy, which simply don't sell as easily to the masses (here or anywhere else in the world). Thaksin had the right idea in a few areas, and I applaud him for that too. The ground now is set though for someone else to come and take his mantle. He has awaoken the populous their electoral strength - and that is ultimately a good thing...

Don't worry Samran. If/when the cambo war starts, you will have to sign up to protect you country as a citizen On the frontline you will have the chance to meat and learn to know the normal overall TRT/PPP voters of Thailand, as they will be there to protect the interests of the well offs. Could be good to hear some other views than the once you hear in the corridors of the upper class! That is of course if you understand the lingo

Explain the personal gain for the military junta! They took over to prevent clashes on the street....

I don't like to call people naive ...but I guess you don't know many people in the military

That means you don't know nothing...just blabla...

h90, You really dont know the answer on that question??you know, this starts to look very silly now just look at the increast military budget when the junta took over, how many billions was it?? On top of that, how much did every (non elected) general get in his pocket privatly before exit? Nobody knows and probably will never know! If you do not understand what I mean, you can always consult you southern wife that you refer to here all the time, or maybe you should do a google and make your own opinion Oh, when you are anyway on it, why not make a google on "international observers" on the 2007 election. I am sure you will find some good info from "the nation"(the only newspaper aload to speak free under military dictatorship). Anyhow, if the junta could not win the election for the democrates, maybe they just have to think about their program instead of blaming voters!

I ask again. Since you know, who were the military taking orders from when they staged the coup?

To answer your question in a bit devious way, but that how you chose to ask the question, that's why a number of us prefer the PPP, or whatever name it used to be known as before or may be called in the future. We know who is in charge and, if we're not happy, we can name names without having to worry about the consequence.

Btw, that's what democracy is about.

The number of you who prefer PPP do it because they got 200 Baht (if nto why PPP handed it out).

There is just one person in Thailand you can't name.......

Again with your 200 Baht... The last election had international observers present and was said to be a fair election. Even in some western democracies you have examples of vote buying such as some guys giving out free beer in the country side for votes. It is rare, but happens so I agree it may have happened in some parts, but by large it was free and fair. I'm not saying vote buying never goes on, but to greatly affect the final result is rubbish and baseless. Did a person from the PPP hold a gun to their head when they voted at the ballot box?? Come on.... They could of voted for anyone even if they were given money. Im sure it would of been condemned by the world if ivote buying was so widespread. The government won the majority because people supported them for different reasons mainly because they believed the military coup was wrong. Just look at the damage the military Junta did while in power. The 2007 Charter is terrible mess written up by generals without any political involvement at all. Any reasonable person who values democracy has the right to request it is changed. It needs to be amended with the involvement of all political parties not a illegal military junta.

People support PPP because they feel the last administration (Thaksin) did a reasonable job in their eyes and that Thailand was progressing until the military coup put a end to it. I cant say that everything that the previous elected government did was right, but by large it did introduce some very good policies such as the Health reforms which benefited everyone. Everyone has the right to vote for a party who they feel will do the best job whether its the Democrats or PPP... Everyone has the right to critize the political parties also. This is all allowed under a democracy. We have a elected representative unlike the military junta which has illegally taken over for their personal gain with the help of PAD.

Agreed! And regarding vote buying, sure maybe there was some and I do not think anyone deny that, but does anyone really think that only some partys did any vote buying. Yeh, the Democrates are only made up of saints

I get a feeling that most of you people who are so anti government and seem to belive that only ppp and TRT have done some vote buying, just thinks so, because you came here on or after the Thaksin era. Have to tell you that 10 years BEFORE TRT govern, there was Democrates leadership term after term with alot more vote buying than now! Anyhow, I also know that already back then voters took money from everyone who gave it to them, but votet for what they really wanted!

You are saying that they should magically create money, perhaps pick them from the money trees, to build schools throughout the country and helps negate vote-buying by populists?

While at the same time the party in power both use tax payers money to obfuscate the truth, censor media...and en richen them selfs. This is in effect what was going on in 2005-2006.

Yes, you are absolutly right, thats what I meen, just cut down money from tree's You are Swedish? I am to.. Have you heard about taxes, really rightly registerd businesses, stop of corruption, work together for a healthier society. This things will bring Thailand a long way (as you know, we had the same dilemas 100's of year ago), or maybe you are just one of them who thinks it's okay to pay a little bit under, there and then everyday, because you can afford it?

Which brings us back to PAD "new politics" underlying idea - elected politicians are a total disgrace and the less we have of them, the better, and the underlying reason for that is people who elect them. And these people are not Swiss (in light of the latest post above).

Maybe you should consider moving to Cuba when it's still time? It's been a long time they have solved the problem of the election there. You and the PAD crowd really remind me of the people who looked with admiration toward Berlin in 36 or later to the Kremlin. I mean they were sincere people, believing in new, fairer order, but at the end, just blind fools.

Spot on, dear Pierrot!

I never cease to be amazed at the sheer contempt posters like Plus have for the ordinary electors of Thailand. Just because they aren't so daft as to vote for the Democratic Party, and let's not forget that the present sorry state of the country is a direct result of that (un)Democratic Party refusing to stand in the pre-coup general election, acting like a spoiled child who wouldn't play just because he knew he couldn't win!

The present state is due to Thaksin refusing to answer any questions in Parliament regarding his actions. To Thaksin the population can vote once every 4 years and then shut up!

No checks

No balances.

In the meantime he offered enough sweeteners to ensure the rural majority vote whilst his family and cahorts plundered the country.

But he got found out.

I told my mother in Ban Pai, Khon Kaen to put our dog up as the PPP candidate in the next election, it was born in Thailand so it should be eligible- it would win hands down.

I noticed Chalerm promising to double kamnan and puyai ban's salary the other day- got to keep the village leaders on your side because the majority of rural voters will follow their advice.

Sweeteners is all part of campaigning. You dont know that? They are offered by all parties in democracy to get themselves elected. If people vote for someone because of some sweetener that is the aim. If you want to win you need to get the voters on board your party. Its all a part of democracy. Even though you may feel its not fair that the majority didnt vote for your prefered party. Thats just bad luck and the masses have spoken. Respect it. I wish some of you guys that hate the government so strongly would understand this and give the government a chance to at least try to govern before being so critical on its first few months in office. THe government are not Magicians like some of you believe they should be. Every party has some questionable candidates thats with every democratic country and yes the courts should play their role but if you look at election campaigns in Australia, Europe, US, UK you would relize that all parties do sweeteners to get elected and they dont put down voters from their rural parts.

The rural majority is Thailands back bone and its sad to see that certain bitter parties put them down so much because they dont vote their way . Respect democracy and they can vote who they want. Everyone has their right to vote anyway they wish in Thailand for PPP, Dems, or who ever they feel is the best for them. Stop trying to insist that rural people are lesser then people in the capital. etc. Respect their choice. Their vote is as important as yours, like it or not... If all you anti-gov people like a military Military dictatorship then visit Burma and see how free and well off they are over there. Im sure you would not want to have that system here.

You my friend got it all right on spot! Very good post, tells all there is to know really about politics in Thailand! Dems do not get enough votes because they do not have anything to offer the mayority of the people of Thailand. All time we hear that the farmers are to stupid to vote, thats why the democrates do not win elections. My question has to be, so why didn't the "good" democrats spend some money on education for the poor over all this years in power before

GOOD NEWS SO now after soon to be 2 decades of work here legally in the dive industry, we will have some help with our illegal competition! This has been on the wall for a long time, and everyone knows that there is to many people working here without proper permits. For the dive industry it will be good, prices will rise, quality and safety will improve! Sad for the people with good intentions staying on tourist visas, but if you want to stay, it will be possible. This was the only way to go ahead, as some places like phi phi island, koh lanta and more are so corrupt that work permits do not exist. From tomorrow it will not be a matter of who you know or not, and how much you can afford to pay under table to the local immigration, it will be up to the thai consulate and boarder police if they will let you in or not! Only in the dive industry this will effect many thousands of people, and for the once working here legally, paying tax, it will hopefully mean better pay!

Interesting: One Thai consulate out of dozens makes one minor change in visa requirements, and you believe that the entire illegal workforce in Thailand is going to just up and disappear? No adjusting? No new plans? Just give up and go home? Boy: That's optimistic.

Have to start somewere Been here long enough to know that this is just a start!

GOOD NEWS SO now after soon to be 2 decades of work here legally in the dive industry, we will have some help with our illegal competition! This has been on the wall for a long time, and everyone knows that there is to many people working here without proper permits. For the dive industry it will be good, prices will rise, quality and safety will improve! Sad for the people with good intentions staying on tourist visas, but if you want to stay, it will be possible. This was the only way to go ahead, as some places like phi phi island, koh lanta and more are so corrupt that work permits do not exist. From tomorrow it will not be a matter of who you know or not, and how much you can afford to pay under table to the local immigration, it will be up to the thai consulate and boarder police if they will let you in or not! Only in the dive industry this will effect many thousands of people, and for the once working here legally, paying tax, it will hopefully mean better pay!

The poor peasants of Issarn have been cast as villains here by many, simply because they voted for someone who offered them the best political deal; -- as we all do at home any way. Lets not forget that at the moment we have 50% of the Thai population (rural peasant class) producing 10% of GDP. That's a terrible waste of human resources. Its like running a company where half your workers come in and do virtually nothing productive. Getting the rural agricultural peasant class to become more productive is going to require some investment before results appear. Most developed countries get by quite comfortably with 1 to 2% of the population involved in agriculture, and even manage to export surplus food.

The current situation with this exceptional division in wealth between the rich and poor (by western standards) suits the wealthy elite very well as it sustains cheap labour to sustain their high standard of living. But is it really in the countries best interests to have half the population living in conditions not too much better than the stone age? OF COURSE NOT!

Bringing 50% of the countries population into more productive employment is not something that is going to happen overnight. It will take education, infrastructure and investment. Even then, results will be generational as the kids grow up into a changing way of life. You ain't going to turn a 50 year old peasant rice farmer with a grade 5 education into an accountant or bassister by throwing money at him. But you can change the way they do business on the farm and the chances the kids might have by gradually introducing change through better education.

There are plenty of people here who mock any government attempts to give a helping hand up to the poor. The 30 baht health care scheme, educational loans, and rural development loans to name a few. Maybe these schemes haven't been as successful as hoped and indeed have been abused in some instances. But does that mean that Thailand should abandon any attempt to make their country more productive and prosperous? Certainly not!

Thailand can stand still and maintain the status quo with half their population living in poverty and undertaking employment practices that benefit neither themselves nor the country, or they can move ahead with other developing countries and enjoy the bounties of increased production and wealth for all as we ourselves have done in our own western countries.

Thaksin, for all his faults, was the first to offer the rural poor a helping hand up. Perhaps it was primarily for selfish reasons simply to get the most votes in a democratic system? Or perhaps it was because Thaksin realized that the development of the previously abandoned rural poor over the next few decades was the key to Thailand's prosperity in future years? Or, more likely it was a mixture of the two in the classic Asian political style whereby the political leader enriches himself while at the same time leading the country into prosperity.

Take a look at the political forces opposing Thaksin. A military junta which has shown itself to be incompetent in managing the countries economy. A military junta which rather than cultivating and developing the countries greatest asset of 50% of the population in the rural agricultural sector, surrounded them with soldiers under martial law in an attempt to keep them down.

The good thing about Thailand is that at the moment at least, they have a voting majority of poor who can legitimately influence the course of democracy. In the coming decades as the rural poor become much less of a voting bloc and the urban middle class increase in numbers, things may change. Right now, Thaksin or his nominees have the support of sufficient numbers of voters to hold power under a democratic system.

The poor peasants of Issarn have been cast as villains here by many, simply because they voted for someone who offered them the best political deal; --

The current situation with this exceptional division in wealth between the rich and poor (by western standards) suits the wealthy elite very well as it sustains cheap labour to sustain their high standard of living. But is it really in the countries best interests to have half the population living in conditions not too much better than the stone age? OF COURSE NOT!

Take a look at the political forces opposing Thaksin. A military junta which has shown itself to be incompetent in managing the countries economy. A military junta which rather than cultivating and developing the countries greatest asset of 50% of the population in the rural agricultural sector, surrounded them with soldiers under martial law in an attempt to keep them down.

The good thing about Thailand is that at the moment at least, they have a voting majority of poor who can legitimately influence the course of democracy. In the coming decades as the rural poor become much less of a voting bloc and the urban middle class increase in numbers, things may change. Right now, Thaksin or his nominees have the support of sufficient numbers of voters to hold power under a democratic system.

I've edited down a bit of what you said; from my point of view, if I was some Isaan peasant of course I would vote TRT as I got so much stuff for free. However, I might not know what I need, but I know what I want. And hold up, the 500 odd people in the village my family owns much of and employs, that is their exact view - this guy stood up to the foreigners, he loves Thais, and he cares about the poor.

An educated person might shoot down all of those as untrue, but it doesn't matter, for better or worse TRT marketing and marketing research (very sophisticated I might add) knows which buttons to press to get their votes in the North East.

If you were a southern peasant, you might feel ENTIRELY differently.

There is VERY little difference in wealth distribution between Thailand and USA, the Lorenz curve, GINI index and other measures of wealth distribution are very very similar. I think you mean heavily taxed socialist type systems in Europe perhaps rather than the western world's largest economic power perhaps?

I have no idea where you thought that the military junta did any less for the poor than TRT did; at least over the last year and a half. Other than unsustainable giveaways (including 30b healthcare which is completely unsustainable and set up to profiteer if you are a medicine importer such as the former health minister's family) I see nothing that TRT have done or are promising to do as PPP that is significantly different to any one else.

Far from trying to keep the poor down, you could argue that TRT/PPP have acheived even better; the poor want to stay down now and be the lap dogs of the new elite, who have given them some scraps while they feast on the govt coffers that could have provided education and genuine advancement.

You'll note there has been virtually no check on the amount of prostitution for instance, or on white liquor or any of the other aspects of rural Thailand that seem so bad; just the war on drugs which acheived something I suppose, although 2000+ families of people involved might ask 'at what cost'

With a mandate imagine what a true leader could do.

Then look at the reality of these f&*king morons. As for your 'military keeping the rural poor down at gunpoint' obviously you are referring to TRT's policy in the south...or perhaps you feel Newin should be entitled to keep paying people to come to BKK and create civil disorder in public places???!

You are indeed right, TRT do indeed have more than 50% of the vote, because one person one vote. Fair enough. Doesn't mean I have to like PPP or him though; unlike most here I've had to work with TRT people, so I see through the facade; no doubt others said that before about Mugabe, Marcos, Estrada, etc etc.

Ya gets who ya vote for, and dammit we've ended up with Ai-Mak.

Very good post from Ando before, and yes indeed, there in not much differens in wealth distribution between US and Thailand today Thats why Ando wants to see Thailand to do better then now

We're starting to get a few repeats, so for posters and journalists alike, the following terms have already been utilized for the new Prime Minister...

pugnacious

right-winger

monkey boy

sharp-tongued

combative

ultra-right wing

rabble-rouser

combative

proxy

pugnacious

loathed

bulbous nose

foul-mouthed pig

vitriolic

sharp-tongued

ultra-conservative

hot tempered

checkered past

fiery

abrasive

food-obsessed

Pig Man

porcine

Ai Dang Moo

scum

Acerbic

rude

turbulent

acid-tongued

This has to be the low water mark post of the year Like or dislike Thailands government as much as you want, but remember that you are a guest in this country! What about if someone posted pictures of you on a forum with a list of insults like this one!

I'm not a guest here, so obviously my opinion counts to you. So I'll repeat:

pugnacious

right-winger

monkey boy

sharp-tongued

combative

ultra-right wing

rabble-rouser

combative

proxy

pugnacious

loathed

bulbous nose

foul-mouthed pig

vitriolic

sharp-tongued

ultra-conservative

hot tempered

checkered past

fiery

abrasive

food-obsessed

Pig Man

porcine

Ai Dang Moo

scum

Acerbic

rude

turbulent

acid-tongued

and I'll add one more

CORRUPT

Good for you! But if you have been accepted by 60 million people in this country, as one of them, maybe you should show them a little respect for their democratic rights!

Native thinglish speaker