opebo

80,000 baht/month is midrange??

O.K, boys and girls. What about this one? I was talking to a Thai wife of a mate of mine who said the new [alright, enforcement of the old] regulations is a bloody good idea because of all the farangs nicking jobs from Thais. I asked her for an example. "Loads of them," I was told. I asked again for a single case. The answer came there none. It is really starting to get worrying. Good luck to you all.

These poor simple people apparently believe we are eager to work for a few hundred dollars a month, and yet their whole association with us is based on our ability to access what they imagine to be an endless supply of money from the ATM.

I'm not currently a visa runner, but I have been in the past and planned to be again when my current visa situation ends here. As to your questions:

1. does it 'hurt' you, financially spoken?

It would make staying in Thailand more expensive, as one would have to do 3 months only, followed by 3 months in Cambodia or elsewhere. This would mean either not availing oneself of long-term rentals or doubling up on rentals.

2. does it effect your family-life?

No! I'm strictly short-time only in Thailand! (anything else is a con)

3. does it effect your job/business interests?

No.

4. what are (or: could be) your solutions?

The only solution that allows a longer term holiday is to stay 3 months in Pattaya and then 3 months in some other reasonable hobby destination like Phnom Penh or perhaps Angeles City. Or perhaps simply to enjoy the girls for only 3 months and then go home. Lastly, one can simply write Thailand off and stay in those few countries that still welcome our custom, though some of them have their own visa difficulties. Probably the best alternative is Cambodia.. and it is still a decade or two away from being able to abuse the hated foreign walking-wallet.

Anyone out there reseved themselves to the fact that the LOS as you knew it is over ?

Where you gonna go ?

Why is it over ? What do you mean

They aren't allowed to stay in Thailand anymore, desmond. Haven't you been reading about the new visa rules?

I would recommend not attending Thai schools since the degree would probably not mean much abroad. You'ld be better off taking 'internet classes' from one of the many US schools that offer degrees online. You can actually get US student loans while taking classes online from an internet cafe in Pattaya!

Of course this doesn't solve the visa problem, so presumably it would be best to live in Phnom Penh while 'studying'.

OK, let's assume he takes a break and the TRT wins the next national election (as is expected). Any ideas on who Dr. Thaksin would support as the next PM?

Who cares, as long as it is not him! He is the rotten tooth that need to be removed!

It doesn't work like that. If he is in the position to support someone, then it would be someone he trusts implicitly and would follow his orders. Hence, anyone who does not care is being very naive.

Well without him as the head, the party is likely to disintergrate into factions in the long term. Note the words, "without him!"

In the long term, probably, but in the immediate future, no. As the saying goes, "better the devil you know."

Ah, to be in Thailand 20 years ago - military dictatorship is far more friendly to the foriegner than democracy.

Perhaps friendly to the foreigner, but let's not forget that the Thai economy as a whole didn't progress very well under the majority of past dictators.

Not very accurate, I'm afraid - Thailand's highest growth rates were in the 1980's, under dictatorship. And anyway, it is not in the foreigner's interest for the local economy to be good (we all come here, aside for the obvious reason, because it is cheap).

I really don't know if Thailand will be better off with or without the PM. On one hand, business has been good and poor people have gained, but on the other hand power corrupts and corruption has been a keynote factor in this administration. As it relates to xenophobia, it was only a few months ago that the PAD was marching on the Singaporean embassy and calling for a boycott on anything Singaporean. Khun Sonthi's ability to mobilize members of the PAD against Singapore was way too easy. Unfortunately, xenophobia exists on both sides.

That's for sure. One thing people should always keep in mind in Asia - they strongly dislike us. It just depends on how much they feel they can show it. For example in South Korea the xenophobia is very outright and open, as they are rich enough to show how they really feel. Thais seem to think they can afford this.. time will tell.

I have been harrassed MANY times returning to the US from Southeast Asia. In fact it is hard to remember the last time I was treated properly - actually I'm pretty sure it was under the previous administration.

As for the sex-tourists with money, well is here really so exciting now? Do they still dance naked at Nana Plaza? Is Pattaya so wonderful....... I'd have thought the hardcore would be in Cambodia or the Philippines anyway what with all the other little laws they keep enforcing here.

Precisely, Thailand has become much worse for us as it has become less free. Of course, the truth is that it is still, even in its current diminished form, better than any other place for the hobby (though of course this may depend one's individual taste).

Fangdago, the only 'contribution' that any person can make to any country is the money they spend there, and these visa runners certainly do that. I'm sure on average they spend 60,000 to 100,000 baht per month, all in funds recieved from their homelands, thus obviously benefiting the Thai economy.

i live on 20k a month. i have most of what i need on this budget and will last me well till i collect social security in usa.

Seems to contradict your view opebo. Visa-runners spending 60k-100k per month should go and get a proper tourist visa.

Well, I never said that everyone spends 60-100K permonth, fandgo, just that the 'average' would be in that range. I know when I lived in Pattaya I spent about 80,000 baht/month, and I wasn't in the least extravagant. Presumably the above poster lives in some rural hideway where there is nothing upon which to spend money. In any case, even if he is living on 20,000/month, he's apparentely not working.

Hence anti-sex prudery is the real reason for this regulation, not anything to do with illegal working.

I'd like to suggest that that is a cultural misunderstanding. Afterall, the brothels are an important part of Thai social mechanics. 97% of the biz is geared toward Thais - farangs are a vey small part. It is fully expected that MEN use prostitutes as often as they can. Indeed, if you say you don't people don't believe you. Thai or Farang, dosn't matter. Friends regularly cover for friends, and even your wife's friends may not tell her if they ctch you with another girl. Afterall, it is a forgone conclusion that you are cheating - the nicer thing to do is just to not let her know the details. It is already understood that all men use whores. Your Thai wife/girlfriend alreadys knows this, as do your Thai friends.

This is cretainly NOT action against sexpats. They are just doing what all men do, right? Nothing against that! No... its the cheap charlies, the criminals, drug users, and the illegal workers that they are trying to combat.

Incidentally, my initial reaction was that this was political poturing given the elections.. but however, the information is not being touted in the news, so that means that the reason cannot be posturing. They really are trying to accomplish something here.

I understand your points, drummer, and I'm well aware that visiting prostitutes is a normal part of Thai culture and most Thai men's lives. However I would suggest that the regulation is still geared mainly against the sex tourist, though not for prudish reasons in the Western sense. It is more that they view the sex business as causing a loss of face for Thailand, and that they do strongly dislike foreigners and would prefer not to 'share' even the despised Isaan women with them.

I think the official figure for tourism is 14 percent of the economy.

However, that is the TIP of the iceberg.

Imagine Isaan without the flows of farang money.

Lets get real here, the amount of HARD CURRENCY brought into Thailand via the sex and love trade is indeed very substantial.

Actually the official number is about 10% with unofficial numbers going to 15%.

I am not arguing that as you put the "sex and love trade is indeed very substantial", but you have to understand when compard to the overall economy, it is very insubstantial.

I think this whole thing is going to be a real drag for a number of people, but it is not a major Thailand economic issue.

TH

10-15% of the economy is enormously substantial. Even the loss of an industry that provided 1 or 2 percent of the economy would have quite a destructive effect on Thailand.

Of course the pain would tend to be focused, as it always is, among the poor, particularly as it would eliminate the only option poor women have to 'get ahead' in Thailand.

As in any economic downturn the owning class will be largely unaffected.

.

Thanks for the support guys. (obepo kiakaha etc)

It's amazing how myopic these people are. They want all the fruit from the tree and then think they aren't doing anything wrong. realthaideal is just who they are looking for.

Like I said... Look at the penalties in your own country has for doing just what you are doing in Thailand. Working illegaly, staying illegaly. Heavy fines, jail, deportation.

Thailand is only trying to protect it's own workers and citizens and have control over who lives within the borders of the Kingdom.

Just like any other country.

'nuff said

~

Were you being sarcastic? If you read my post you would find that it was not 'in support' of your point of view but rather critical of same.

My point was that very few of the visa runners work in Thailand - why would they? The wages are comical. No, they recieve money from home, which they spend in Thailand, and the reason they are here is quite simply for the ladies. Hence anti-sex prudery is the real reason for this regulation, not anything to do with illegal working.

Mak

This crackdown (if it is actually implemented) is in regard (at a wild guess) to pedo tourists and the sexpats, those with sin bars paying no taxes or anything else that resembles a legal framework of business practice.

'Sin bars'?! What are you, a born-again Christian, makakadon?

It is enough to deal with losing personal freedoms here at home. I can't imagine losing even more freedoms one has by residing in Thailand. What's the trade off?

"Freedommmm!!!" - William Wallace

I hear this alot in the states, Not sure where your from Pepe. Can you answer me this?? What freedom's have you lost?? I ask people this in the US and they cannot answer, Come to think of it you have not lost anything!!!

When I wake up in the morning I have the freedom to walk out my front door and do whatever I please. Even I could do something wrong, I may have to face the consequences of it but I could still do it.

Actually the only difference in personal freedom between the US and Thailand is that in the latter prostitution is mostly tolerated.

As for this doctor, he is well advised to reconsider any long-term commitment to Thailand. There are of course other places he can visit in retirement, though they all have their good and bad aspects. What has changed is that Thailand is no longer head-and-shoulders above the others.

OK, let's assume he takes a break and the TRT wins the next national election (as is expected). Any ideas on who Dr. Thaksin would support as the next PM?

Who cares, as long as it is not him! He is the rotten tooth that need to be removed!

It doesn't work like that. If he is in the position to support someone, then it would be someone he trusts implicitly and would follow his orders. Hence, anyone who does not care is being very naive.

Well without him as the head, the party is likely to disintergrate into factions in the long term. Note the words, "without him!"

In the long term, probably, but in the immediate future, no. As the saying goes, "better the devil you know."

I don't think any TRT Taksin stooge that replaces him will be worse, but rather the same. I don't get very excited about news of Taksin's supposed departure from politics as long as the xenophobic, 'family values' TRT is still in power. The only thing that could improve the situation in Thailand would be a military coup, and I fear that the country has been too democratized for that anymore. Ah, to be in Thailand 20 years ago - military dictatorship is far more friendly to the foriegner than democracy.

hi guys..

so why do people want multiple tourist visa's anyway?

if you are working or staying in thailand why dont you get a work or retirement or dependants visa?

i dont think that there is anything wrong here with the new visa requirements - just people trying to get around the law - for whatever reason - probably tax or insurance or just simply black employment ....

so what do such people ( multiple tourist visa ) do for a living? how do they get money? one assumes its all illigal?

amarka

Dude. Amarka. I'm not here to do black things and do evil. I'm a freelance worker who does gigs via the internet back in the US. I have an income and spend it here. I love Thailand. But get this, I'm required to be taken on for a job that pays 60,000 Baht / mo in order to get that visa. How many companies do you think are paying Farang or anybody that kind of money...in BKK ? ok, a few, but all upper level positions. Now how about Chiang Mai? 60k in CHiang Mai ? Ha ! Keep dreaming. The laws themselves are unrealistic at best and greedy at worst. I have to keep the party going by bringing in my foreign dollars via the internet, and under the table.

And guess what ? I write good things about THailand for the internet. I do good for this country. THat's in addition to spending my money here. But with my less than 60 K income thru a Thai co there is no way for me to go legit. But I want to live here and do what's right. The avenue for that does not exist. Their own loss. And I know there are many good folks up to projects in the same boat as I am.

Give some heart and thought to floks like us.

You say you are not here to do "black things" but you openly divulge that you are working here illegally (no work permit) and not paying tax. So you are winging and moaning that Thailand is no longer going to incubate or tolerate your illegal activitys.

Sort your situation out, get legal.

Here is some free useful advice.....Incorporate a company in LOS for IT outsourcing, get a Non B visa + work permit, maybe even take on a couple of cheap thai programmers, get a small office space and hook up more outsourcing work.

I'm sick of people who moan and cast blame and dont do anything about it. INITIATE SOME ACTION ###### IT. Look for the opportunitys, get off your ass and do something about it!

I agree that this chap should 'do something' about his situation, Kaka, but I would suggest that instead of wasting his time attempting to comply with the ever changing regulations of a xenophobic Thailand that he move to a more welcoming third world country and spend his money there.

For those of us who visit Thailand ofthen, this isn't a good thing. Not the end of the world, but the removal of a very convienient option.

So, I find it odd that so many of the posters seem to get off at laughing and gloating at those of us who point this out.

FarangYY, I am sure that those who currently feel safe (a situation that may change) are not laughing and gloating at the likes of you who visit periodically, from real work in other nearby Countries, to be able to spend some prime time with girlfirends, wives and families. Everyone understands that scenario and hopes that you or the immigration authorities can find a way round it. The targets of most of the "laughing and gloating" are the free-loaders, those that appear to think they have a god-given RIGHT to reside here in the LOS indefinitely on the basis of repetitive renewals of free 30 day entry stamps, but without making any real contribution to Thailand. The attitudes of many of these free-loaders embarrass those of us who are here to make a genuine contribution to Thailand, so we shall not be sorry if Thailand manages to clear out such dross.

Fangdago, the only 'contribution' that any person can make to any country is the money they spend there, and these visa runners certainly do that. I'm sure on average they spend 60,000 to 100,000 baht per month, all in funds recieved from their homelands, thus obviously benefiting the Thai economy.

I fail to understand your hostile and disapproving attitude to this group of people. One can only assume you have a prudish reaction to their reason for being here, but I suggest it is no different than your own, if you were a bit more honest.

.

realthaideal,

You are living and working in Thailand and pretending to be a tourist.

You are disrespecting Thai laws and taking advantage of their hospitality.

Have a look at the penalties for doing this in your home country and quit faulting Thailand for trying to control who lives here.

'nuff said

~

Your post shows that you are ignorant of the fact that the vast majority of 'visa runners' do not work in Thailand. Why on earth would they, man? The wages are too low for a Westerner to bother with - say 30,000 baht/month.

No, these long stay visa runners are virtually all here for the obvious (but somewhat taboo) reason of female companionship, and recieve the 80,000 baht or so they spend each month from back home. Is it that hard for you people to imagine a 30 or 40 year old with an investment income of two or three thousand dollars a month? Such people are commonplace - all it takes is a for example a couple of rental properties or a small trust fund.

This issue is a complicated one because while I hate the chains, I also fear this anti-foreigner government. The large chains sell such inferior products than the traditional markets (i.e. processed, unfresh foods). I come from the Land of the Fat, and I know that it is exceedingly difficult to find a decent meal there - not so Thailand.

But, as someone said above, apparently the third worlders all want to be fat and eat Oreos and Ding Dongs rather than the delicately prepared foods of their forefathers. Anyway, this regulation is about xenophobia, not preservation of quality or culture - even the Thai retailers of the future will be moving away from fresh foods towards the disgusting processed trash popular in the West.

As someone said above - we may love the old Thailand, but it is time to say goodbye. It is already mostly gone. Ah for a time machine, eh?

It's easy for me to understand the concept- Thailand wants genuine 2/3 week holiday makers once/twice/three times a year similar to Spain, France etc etc. Otherwise your not welcome!

Two or three weeks isn't a realistic time frame for tourists coming from North America, as the flight is too long and arduous to make such a trip worthwhile.

But more to the point of your post - why should a government prefer a tourist who tours for 2 weeks to one who tours for 6 months? In either case they only do one thing - spend money.

Of course we all know that the reason is anti-sex puritanism. The 'family' tourists will come for two weeks, and probably never come back, while it is the single male tourists who are enormously more motivated to spend time in Thailand.

It is apparent that the vast majority of people who have previously utilized the 'visa run' option are not working in Thailand, and the Thai government is no doubt well aware of this. After all how many farangs would consider working in a country with the low wages prevailing in Thailand?

The real purpose of this regulation is to eliminate the long-stay expats who are living here on money from their homeland. In almost every case the purpose of this is to enjoy the female companionship on offer in Thailand (I should know). This is what the moralistic Thai Rak Thai government is attacking. The claim that this crackdown is about illegal employment is the usual Thai sidestepping of the real intent.