Orac

- snip-

From our first prime minister, Praya Manopakorn Nititada, to our latest, Somchai Wongsawat, -snip-

Did I miss something?

There is one arguable element of justification for the government.

If the pensioner lives and spends in the UK the money goes round in the British system and gets taxed and retaxed and some of it gets recouped into the common coffers.

Don't shoot the messenger, I'm not defending it, and sadly don't get a penny and never will.

I could be wrong, and it will be some time, if ever, that it effects me, but the issue seems to be one of fairness - pensions are index linked for some UK expats but not all. This includes the EEA countries which is perhaps arguable, however it also includes 15 others where there is an agreement between governments (the US is one which, incidentally, is not a commonwealth country).

The arguement seems to be that if someone has made their UK contributions, why should they get a larger pension if the live in some countries eg. US, Turkey, Jamaica - than others.

South Africa is (or was) a commonwealth country, where as Thailand isn't and never was.

I understand that but the appeal is of an abuse against their human rights and not specifically commonwealth citizen rights (if such a thing exists) and therefore, if they win, the ruling should apply to all UK expats. Even if the ruling is narrow enough to specify expats living in commonwealth countries, the principal should make it fairly straightforward for campaign covering all expats.

UK expats living in the European Economic Area see their UK pension rise with the cost of living, but others in some Commonwealth countries do not.

Sadly not very Thailand-related.

Also it is being heard in the European court so even a positive ruling is not Thaialnd related.

Your right, it's not Thailand related, UK related.

The European court can overule the UK courts and could apply any ruling to ALL expats including in Thailand (note that there is an expat in South Africa being considered). Even if they only rule on expats living in the EEA this would open the gates for an appeal, and set a precedence, for UK expats living worldwide.

Considering the article goes on to say 69.8 % backed the imposition of the act then there seem to be some very confused foreigners out there where the majority support/worry about/don't understand what is happenning.

Caf,

Sorry but I did not copy the post I was responding to above which was from Scorecard who questioned the very existence if the second petition.

Still no 'noise' from the udd/red shirts about the alleged petition to rebutt the red shirt pardon petition.

To me this speaks volumes.

I'm hard pressed to believe that PM Abhisit would have sanctioned such a petition and I can't believe he would have allowed any scenario whereby public servants etc., were forced to sign.

If his collation partners (some of whom are fairly brainless and I wouldn't trust many of them) did start up such a petition, I'm confident Abhisit would have squashed it immediately.

I repeat, where the 'noise' from the udd/red shirts?

With regards to flaming and childish behaviour of some on this thread, of which I have been equally responsible for, can we move on and discuss the topic as requested by the mods. I understand your request for more corrobaration but this has already been commented on by MIG.

Your suggestion that the reporter should be unbiased in his reporting is odd in that a great deal of reporting is biased (some who have done 'media studies' would argue all) as they are made from a personal viewpoint of the reporter and, sometimes though I don't beleive it in this case, the editorial policy of the news provider. Photojourns political views are a known quantity and therefore political bias should be assumed. Personally I am a right wing capitalist but some of my favourite correspondents/political pundits - John Pillger and George Galloway to name a couple, have very stong left wing biases - but what happens here is they tell me things that I should hear rather than the things I want to hear. It is up to me to make up my mind but by hearing only one side of a story my opinion is automatically going to be questionable.

Cheers

Orac

I am not slinging mud - -read my post 151 again, And maybe read some of Plus's and others posts.

SR has again in post 129 commented on no corroboration. A point he made in the early days of the thread.

Sorry caf but I am not getting dragged back into this arguement again, especially as the mods have clearly requested that we stick to the topic AND that you already answered this post in your post number 167.

What comments do you have on my latest post:

"So what do you make of the statement made by the Interior Minister about having six million signatures already - or is this in question too.

I am no udd/red shirt supporter and do hope that Abhisit is given the space to sort things out as he appears to be the best, if not only, good thing going for Thailand politically at the moment, however, given your valid points above, how much control does he have over his own government. It is my belief that it will not be the likes of Thaksin or the Red Shirts that will stop Abhisit from doing what is needed but problems caused from within his own government. "

Sorry LaoPo I was referring to the BP poll that the thread was adressing. Does anyone here seriously think that 92% actually support the runaway fugitives demand for a whitewash of crimes, and only 8% support the dignity of the higher institution and rule of law.

Doubtful in the extreme.

The question is not whether the demands should be granted but who the petition should be heard by. IF the petition is not illegal in itself then you could argue that 92 % are supporting the dignity of the higher institution and saying that it is not the place of the PM to stop it.

Still no 'noise' from the udd/red shirts about the alleged petition to rebutt the red shirt pardon petition.

To me this speaks volumes.

I'm hard pressed to believe that PM Abhisit would have sanctioned such a petition and I can't believe he would have allowed any scenario whereby public servants etc., were forced to sign.

If his collation partners (some of whom are fairly brainless and I wouldn't trust many of them) did start up such a petition, I'm confident Abhisit would have squashed it immediately.

I repeat, where the 'noise' from the udd/red shirts?

So what do you make of the statement made by the Interior Minister about having six million signatures already - or is this in question too.

I am no udd/red shirt supporter and do hope that Abhisit is given the space to sort things out as he appears to be the best, if not only, good thing going for Thailand politically at the moment, however, given your valid points above, how much control does he have over his own government. It is my belief that it will not be the likes of Thaksin or the Red Shirts that will stop Abhisit from doing what is needed but problems caused from within his own government.

I have no problem with Newbies as I said in my post but how many posts has Lost in Los made and what is his motivation. Also look at some of the lother threads Photojourn has actually posted and make you own mind up. No-one is slinging mud - in fact I have asked and so have othersw for his sources and his journalistic background.

Why on earth do you now need to know Lost in Los 'motivation'. He made a very clear post after having looked into the background of John Le Fevre, - something which you are advocating that we do but clearly haven't done yourself as you are still asking for details rather than making the effort to look yourself.

Your attempt to brand him as a newbie is truly pathetic and patronizing particularly since he has been a member here nearly twice as long as yourself

Are you serious about wearing a condom when walking through a park or shopping on your own????

..majority of posters on this thread who, in my opinion, not liking what has been said, have sought to sling mud and discredit him to attempt to divert the conversation away from what is actually being said.

I don't think "we" are slinging mud. Forgive us of being sceptical regarding news sources and media in general at this point in Thai development, and it's actually author's job to establish his credibility.

I think I know where the problem lies here.

Normally we assign some sort of "credibility index" to any news or source we come across and it depends on many factors. Friends and personal acquaintances, professional media outlets, rumors, government announcements, previous history - it all matters and we usually process this in milliseconds and unconsciously.

If the news has official appearance we tend to put it into "official" category, and that's where the main problem with John lies - his article is presented here at a level normally associated with "official" sources. It's not entirely his fault, btw.

So now we have this credibility gap between what we personally ascribe to John and how it appears on TV, this gap creates tensions as both sides tends to pull the others closer to their level and meet with resistance.

Nothing to worry, eventually we will negotiate a common understanding - either by agreeing on a common credibility level for John Le Fevre articles, or leaving the argument altogether as unproductive - like fighting over which color media is better.

I think we are both coming from the same place on this. I accept the validity of the report based the following reasons:

1. John Le Fevre is an experienced journalist who has operated in Africa and Asia for a number of years (I know you could argue that I got this from his own website but the articles he has written are there and stand up to MY scrutiny).

2. Thai Visa have published the article under the Thai News Banner - I personally would class Thai Visa as a 'trusted source' and, in view of forum rules and moderation have faith that an inflamatory article such as this would not be 'offically' recognised without some scrutiny.

3. A poster has already corroberated the article (PoliteExpat) by confirming he knows people who have been pressured to sign said petition.

4. The story itself is perfectly credible.

Clearly everyone has differing standards and definitions of corroberation - I am accepting Johns report as 'official' as per your post whereas you, as is your perogative, are not. I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

It would be nice for all concerned if the requirements to get a visa were more transparent.

Apparently the "requirements" someone listed above are not quite right, as someone else said his girl got a visa w/out anywhere near that amount of money.

There are also factors which disqualify one for a visa, I think - isn't any history as a sex-worker or bar girl one such?

I assume this would depend on the country the visa is for though I am not aware of any restrictions on sex-workers for the UK.

I just simply wanted to post this for a few various reasons but none the less I feel certain some embassies actually have no interest in giving visas. Mind you I am aware that for thai people you either

Probably 500,000 baht or more in bangkok account

House Title

Employment Verification and lots of other requirements to. Which I understand why but I feel some embassies should just put a giant sign on their embassy just saying straight out WE DON"T WELCOME THAI's period. Also it would appear to me that even if you are married to a foreigner. I've heard stories ( key word stories ) that if a thai marries a foreigner the process just to go the foreigners country can easily take 2 years.

Have any of you had, seen, know of events like this. My thai wife has been fine getting a visa, but she works to and we make better money here anyway. She's gotten visas to Japan, UK, Switzerland, Austria. A few other places to. The only place we won't waste the time on is to get a tourist visa for the U.S. . any comments, are welcome.

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit here - the first part of the posts states, along with the title, that it is difficult or near impossible for Thai to get a visa then you go on to say in the last paragraph that your actual experience of this through your wife is that she has obtained visas to many countries without a problem.

To answer your question, my only experience of getting a visa was for my wife to the UK which wasn't a problem despite the fact that she didn't have a job, house or 500,000 baht to her name.

Western Union would be your quickest method as the money would be available virtually immediately and there are agents all over Thailand. If you check their website - westernunion with a dot com - you can find the nearest agent to you and in Thailand or, as I use to, send from their website with a credit card (classed as a cash transaction though so you will pay interest straight away and if you don't pay off all your bills it will remain there as the last thing to pay off).

Your sister in Law will need the MTCN number (transaction number given by WU), your name, city and country sent from and the amount along with showing her ID card and they will just hand the cash over.

I was questioning John's Le Fevre's sources, and that was it.

Nothing slanderous towards him as a person that I remember.

But so far there is no corroboration that has been brought to my attention.

Corroboration DOES matter.

Nation and Bkk Post do get raked over the coals for bad reporting here too.

ESPECIALLY for relying on single source internet stories lacking corroboration.

Also i was being humorously ironic about the efficacy of Tweets as a viable news source.

But did that mention John, nope, it was referencing someone elses catch phrase

I WAS castigating the Thaksin tweets as a source for anything for sure.

Different kettles of fish.

But hey lump me in any group you want.

I'll believe news when I am more confident of the source. I have no confidence in this one. And why is Lost in Los taking up the banner? What motivation? I welcome newbies of course and they can contribute as much as the rest of us. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

Lost in Los appears to have taken the time to investigate the journalist in question and then form an opinion based on what he has discovered as opposed to the majority of posters on this thread who, in my opinion, not liking what has been said, have sought to sling mud and discredit him to attempt to divert the conversation away from what is actually being said.

Not entirely sure who the newbie is you are welcoming as you appear to one of the newest members contributing to this thread (especially since it looks like Ferwert has now been banned!).

Good point. John doesn't post his articles himself.

George posts them just as he does with any other news. In those case he is not endorising content in any way.

I guess it means we should judge John's articles on their own merit and on his own history, just as with any other news source.

There's no point in asking him - where did you get this? Or what does "reports are filtering out" mean?

That's just how he operates. His friends of red political persuasion send him tweets and e-mails and he regurgitates them into news articles, trying to fool the public into believing that they have any factual basis or reliability.

I'm sure he trusts his sources, as any other poster who starts with "I heard from my friends at the bar...". It's just in John's presentation it comes as "face to face interviews", and tweets come as "reports are filtering out".

This has not been posted the same way as other news - it has been posted under the banner of Thai Visa news and, since you posted, we now have confirmation that John Le Fevre has been commissioned by Thai Visa to provide it.

"I do not understand your statement that there is no point asking for conformation as this is exactly what I did earlier on in the topic and he answered with the following:

quote

The information on people being intimidated and told to meet signature quotas came from talking to civil servants employed in the north and northeast of Thailand. Other events are reported from having spoken to and in some cases obtained written accounts of events from eyewitnesses to those events."

end quote

You seem to have taken the position that, because of his political beliefs/affiliations, he is lying and making this up which seems bizarre since you have also stated more than once in this thread that you are not surprised if these tactics were being used. Obviously, since this news has been commisioned by Thai Visa I assume the powers that be have also made their own inquiries as to the veracity of what has been reported.

If Thai Visa is now choosing to portray itself as a news provider then it must take responsibilty for what is being posted in its name as this article is clearly posted as 'news' as opposed to an opinion piece.

From Forum Rules:

..We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of Thaivisa.com or any entity associated with Thaivisa.com.

This guy is entirely on his own and can post any bullshit with absolute impunity.

I see your point however surely there is a grey area since it has been posted by George on not by the journalist himself.

It seems that the people looking to squash this story as unfounded aren't bothering to read the posts.

No, not at all. We just want to know what the story is founded on exactly.

We want to know what professional standards does this journalist follow? Is he a member of any accredited journalist organization, or is he self-proclaimed "journalist"? Who among real, professional journalists can vouch for his credibility? Who will take responsibility if he goes off the rails?

There's a contract between the public and the media - we put certain amount of trust in the media, and the media is accountable for what it reports to us. Where does John Le Fevre fit in this? Is he accountable in any way?

Until all that can be settled to OUR satisfaction, we will treat his "news" on their own merit - someone somewhere has probably said something, or it could have been a hoax from the start.

Surely the contract between the public and the media in this case is Thai Visa members (public) and Thai Visa management (media). If Thai Visa is now choosing to portray itself as a news provider then it must take responsibilty for what is being posted in its name as this article is clearly posted as 'news' as opposed to an opinion piece.

I cannot remember a journalist being subject to such scrutiny before and certainly without questions being asked of the agency he is 'working' for.

McGee said she had to remember the women by their numbers as she asked around for them on any given night. Some were known by nicknames given to them by others, but most were known only by number, she said.

I have yet to meet anyone who didn't have a name - maybe they just didn't want to talk to her ????

...and maybe they're just sick of hearing people talk out of their ass without being able to back it up.

Surely there's no need to get uncivil about it.

and insinuating that many members' wives are prostitutes is civil?

Erm - were thank you very much. If the implication is that they had to keep on working after marriage I would take issue with it.

Sorry JT but the first word that came into my head when I saw this was OBSESSED

Haven't seen anything on this in Reuters, AP, BBC, NNT, MCOT, Bangkok Post, The Nation, PTV, TAN, or heard anything on this from Thai TV news or the four family members that are civil servants.

John leFevre did not give any sources, did he

What is his journalistic background

surely you aren't expecting him to name the civil servants and eyewitnesses that he obtained this information from are you???

Where did Le Fevre obtain this information?

"Likewise, some district, town and village administrators, most notably in the north and northeast of the country – traditional Thaksin strongholds – are claiming they have been instructed to obtain 100 percent support for the government petition from residents, or face dismissal and loose all central government budget funding.

According to a number of civil servants in the Northern Province of Chiang Mai, each employee has been told to collect 100 signatures for the government’s rebuttal petition by Friday, August 14, or face dismissal.

The reports from Chiang Mai match similar ones from the Northeastern Province of Chaiyaphum where the Interior Ministry appointed governor is reported to have summoned district and sub-district leaders to a meeting at City Hall on August 12 and instructed them they must obtain the signatures of all village residents - without exception."

Did he interview district, town and village administrators? How many? Where? Did he actually recieved reports from Chiang Mai and Chayaphum?

>>>>

Regardless - the Interior Ministry that rnus this "reported" campaign is run by Newin's men. I would be surprised if they didn't do anything stupid like that at all.

And maybe John Le Fevre, who apparently knows all this information first hand, can provide us with the text of this counter-petition everyone is signing. What does it say and who is it addressed to?

I was also wary of this hence my earlier question to Mr Le Fevre which he has clearly answered confirming that information was gained from talking to civil servants and eyewitnesses in the areas concerned.

Since he has confirmed the veracity of the information (and also since George has seen fit to show it under the Thai Visa News banner which in itself speaks volumes) I would like to congratulate him on what appears to be a good piece of investagative journalism which has reaffirmed for me the political independence of Thai Visa given the number of recent allegations of Anti-Thaksin bias.

Who is John Le Fevre and what is a loose job? It doesn't sound very secure in the first place.

John,

Since I see you are reading this thread at the moment, are you able to confirm if you have spoken directly with the officials mentioned to get these comments or have you pieced this together from other media sources. Since none of this appears to be in the mainstream english language press and they are clearly sensitive issues i, and i am sure others, would be interested to know what verification process you have gone through on this.

Many Thanks

Orac