ozimoron

Ukraine will not surrender. The West will continue to ramp up sanctions including the cessation of all trade until Russia relents or uses biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. If that happens, NATO will get involved.

Colonel-General Mizintsev, without providing evidence, said that Ukrainian "bandits", "neo-Nazis" and nationalists had engaged in "mass terror" and gone on a killing spree in the city. Mizintsev said Russia was not using heavy weapons in Mariupol https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-21/russia-demands-ukrainian-forces-lay-down-arms-in-mariupol/100925944

The elephant in the room now is the many and persistent war crimes and crimes against humanity.

It’s ‘Effectively Impossible’ To Kick Russia Out Of The UN, But There Are Other Options Diplomats could remove Russia from the human rights council or refuse to recognize a Russian-backed government in Ukraine, experts say. https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2022/03/its-effectively-impossible-kick-russia-out-un-there-are-other-options/362673/

The potential for NATO expansion to Ukraine was never a justification for an invasion and war crimes. The sanctions will remain until Russia undoes much more than retreat to its position before this current invasion. They will be made to pay a severe price. That was threatened and the West will make good on their threat. Rebuilding Ukraine will cost a lot of money and it's Russia who's going to foot the bill.

There will be a repeat of the end of WW2, with a twist. Putin will have to face the ICJ for war crimes. Additionally, Russia will need to withdraw militarily from the Donbass and Crimea and pay massive reparations to Ukraine. Until all this happens, sanctions will remain. For a long time. Germany will go ahead with reducing its reliance on Russian gas. Russia is finished as a world power and the West will make sure of it. They don't want this to happen again.

Vladimir Putin's invasion of Ukraine is not just a war of politics – it's a holy war https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-20/vladimir-putin-invasion-ukraine-politics-holy-war/100921102

I'd rather see Putin face a war crimes tribunal and then jail rather than dead. If he's innocent then so be it. If not.. he can rot in jail and other would be fascists will forever be reminded what happens to war criminals.

which of those represents "indiscriminantly bomb civilians in a continued and methodical way" as my post mentions?

"Journalistic standards" The actual reason that only credible sources are permitted to be quoted on this forum. Do you have any evidence at all that they weren't forced? If so, why not show it?

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said the siege of Mariupol will go down in history for what he’s calling war crimes by Russia’s military. “To do this to a peaceful city, what the occupiers did, is a terror that will be remembered for centuries to come,” https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-kyiv-business-europe-d70a8d7dfe30b1975ea230aef6e64841

“Children, elderly people are dying. The city is destroyed and it is wiped off the face of the earth,” The Mariupol city council claimed hours later that Russian soldiers had forcibly relocated several thousand city residents, mostly women and children, to Russia. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-europe-lifestyle-moscow-1b564e5ac8cdc5e15904576ac8e96164

Ukraine band adds new meaning to Clash hit with 'Kyiv Calling' https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-band-adds-new-meaning-clash-hit-with-kyiv-calling-2022-03-19/

One clue might be the opposition members in jail. A successful and popular leader would not be motivated to resort to those tactics.

It has security implications for the Ukrainians and the Modovians and that's the point. The US was never concerned that Russian control of the Ukraine was a threat to the US itself. Russian control over Ukraine now would be devastating to the Ukrainians who have suffered so much due to indiscriminant attacks amounting to war crimes. While Russia occupies Ukraine the sanctions will remain. The only scenario in which they are likely to be lifted is Putin in The Hague.

well I was right, the opposition I quoted was quite significant. I understand you have an intense desire to downplay it.

An isolationist, Reaganite policy think tank. It's irrational to think that the US' best interests are served by not engaging in foreign policy. The alternative was t sit back and allow Russia to re-establish the Soviet Union by force. NATO is nothing more than a deterrent against fascism.

I never claimed it would. If memory served me rightly, you claimed no opposition.

Nobody is forgetting, they are just keeping on topic. The topic is Putin and Ukraine. Now. At least you conceded the point, several Putin apologists didn't.

Even if true and I agree it was to some extent (gassing 5000 Kurds some 15 years previously is a mitigation) does that somehow excuse Putin? Did he not commit war crimes and crimes against humanity?

It's always easy to point to potential or actual war crimes and injustices perpetrated by any country but we shouldn't allow such comparisons to excuse the behavior of any country. Instead they should all be considered separately according to their own circumstances and merits. Should Milosovich been let off the hook because Hitler killed more people? Obviously not. It isn't helpful to engage in whataboutery for this reason.

Nonetheless, whether Kyiv falls is to many observers a matter of when, rather than if. To this point, it remains somewhat of a mystery what Putin would do with a nation the size of Ukraine. Splitting up the country might be the most likely option. However, it is not without severe difficulties. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/russia-ukraine-war-what-is-putins-endgame

Popular protest has erupted worldwide, including in Russia. In the first nine days of Russia’s new war, more than 1,800 public demonstrations protested its unprovoked aggression, according to the independent research organization ACLED. The protests, across at least 93 countries and territories, included at least 150 demonstrations in Russia, “95 percent of which were met with state intervention,” https://www.usip.org/publications/2022/03/global-resistance-putins-war-historic Protests have sprung in Moscow and other Russian cities since the attack began in the early morning hours of Feb. 24. As of Thursday, more than 8,000 people had been detained at anti-war protests across the country, according to tracking by OVD-Info. And several billionaire oligarchs – arguably the most powerful group of people in Russia other than Putin himself – have spoken out against the attack. https://www.usnews.com/news/the-report/articles/2022-03-04/war-weary-russians-threaten-trouble-for-vladimir-putin-amid-ukraine-attack

You're speculating and then accusing others of doing the same thing.

And cowardly great powers invade smaller, weak nations on the assumption that the West won't risk nuclear war by stopping them. Unfortunately for Russia, they miscalculated. Stalled Russian Troops Beg for Food Cmdr. Muslim Chiberloevsky (R), leader of a Chechen brigade fighting with the Ukrainians and for a free and independent Chechnya / John Sweeney https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/stalled-russian-troops-beg-for-food/