Oblomov

12 hours ago, Flink said:

So how do you explain this:

"WASHINGTON — At least 125,000 fully vaccinated Americans have tested positive for Covid and 1,400 of those have died, according to data collected by NBC News."

???

In UK, published data showed that some deaths occurred of fully vaccinated people over the last week - of course that was pounced on by some - but then context was added and those deaths occurred in the groups with myriad other complex and serious pre-existing conditions and all above 70 apart from 2 who were extremely obese. The others were in their 80s and 90s. Vaccines have certainly allowed hospitals to function in all the other important areas but they are not miracles.  UK just approved a an oral medicine for treatment and one would expect more of these to follow, just as medical research makes progress in other arenas once understanding of a new virus improves. 

Any  corona/flu type virus and this virus behaves as such, will always evade a vaccine to some extent Too many strains that constantly mutate for new vaccines  to ever by fully efficacious but they are our best hope of getting life back to normal with people being able to feed and educate their kids and life to have some pleasure.

I don't need to  as I'm well aware of the deep rooted faults but there is much more accountability and transparency and far fewer get away with malfeasance in office -  by 'freedom' I simply mean that if we do take advantage of the good education here and then work hard, we have a level of economic and social freedom. Silly comments about napalm aside,  it's good we can report on our seedy royals and expose govt incompetence and faults in the police etc...

Perfect ?  No!  but relatively free  to do and say as I like - yes it is

13 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I would say death is the worst outcome. 

it is reported over 5 million dead worldwide from the virus. Given that many countries under report , it is argued by many that the number can be three times as high. (15 millions) .

In comparison  the number of dead from World War 2 was about 75 million. 

 

It is safe to say that if the measures that were taken had not been. the deaths from covid 19 could had been close to, if not greater than World War 2, 

 

The point missed, being that there are medical reasons a virus is more virulent in a particular host - those that died in wars were mostly healthy younger people, often conscripted, and were undoubtedly killed by a single act of violence.

No comparison

As a species, to survive this and the next virus, a more robust effort to improve our own chances by our own choices in our own good health.

On 10/30/2021 at 7:02 AM, The Cipher said:

After having to register for my third vaccine passport in the last month (this time with gov-mandated authenticator app!) I have decided to go on a (probably ill advised) rant.

 

I'm a pro-vaxxer. I got vaccinated and generally encourage other people to do the same. But bluntly, I believe that it's every individual's choice to get or not get the vaccine. We need to just accept that and open up. Like, 100% open up. If they die, they die. If they pass it to a vulnerable person and the vulnerable person dies, they die. If they pass it to me and I die, I die. The ongoing disruption of normal life at this point is ridiculous. Like, it's legit insane.

 

On a percentage basis, Covid has always only killed very small amount of people. As we learned more about the disease, that rate declined. And as vaccines rolled out and continue to roll out across the world, that rate has declined further. At this point we are looking at rates well below 1% mortality in fully vaccinated persons. Please don't @ me with "bUt MiLliOnS oF pEopLe." If you want to say that, all you're really saying is that you don't understand percentages and you're bad at math (among other things).

 

At some point during the pandemic, society seems to have collectively decided that its overriding imperative was to prevent Covid cases at all costs. All other considerations be damned. As far as I'm aware that was never debated at any point, and the logic of the premises underpinning that idea never came under scrutiny. Most people aren't even aware that it's a values judgment rather than a fundamental truth or necessity (if you understand this, try and explain it someone and watch their brains contort in any attempt not to process. You might even see it in responses to this post). People were scared, and that made restrictions politically expedient. The result? This single minded obsession with minimizing case counts regardless of the proportionality of measures taken to that effect.

 

At this point we're still seeing panic of single digit deaths per day. In some parts of the world determined to stick to a zero Covid policy, we see mass restrictions over even a single new case. Like, are you serious? Does it not occur to people at any point how absolutely disproportionate measures are now to risk? Many countries (with vaccine saturaiton 70%+!) are still maintaining abnormal measures affecting day to day life, to say nothing of high barriers to international travel. It's unbelievable.

 

How much inconvenience are we going to have to endure before we just nut up and get on with it? Like, if you're a person who genuinely thinks Covid is still a big deal, what specific rate or number would be the threshold at which you would no longer feel that arduous measures were warranted? Have you even thought about it? Because I'm betting you haven't.

 

Ok rant over. I feel less frustrated now. As you were, lads. Carry on.

Perfectly worded rant buddy 

Vaccinated and tested visitors aren't going to go for the 5 days quarantine as most visit Bali for between 4 and 8 nights (according to figures published by Indonesian Tourism) so airlines won't take up expensive landing slots. At some point, they either make travel attractive and affordable or do without the 50% + of GDP that tourism once bestowed on Bali and it's local businesses.

As a very keen swimmer and beach lover, I don't think anywhere beats Thailand, Bali and other places in the region I've lived for extended periods.  I've got a lot of Thai and Indonesian friends, whom I've known for many years, and I'd have to say it's them and the beaches that draw me back numerous times in the last 30 years.

I certainly enjoy a lot when in London in the summers and I'm productive but the winters are long and gloomy in the northern hemisphere, so always get back to S E Asia between Sept/Oct - Mar/Apr. When younger I lived in the middle of Silom in BKK and right in Kuta on Bali. Now I'm older I found a very quiet dead end soi in Phayathai BKK and always find a quiet little villa on Bali.

I know I've changed over the many years in Asia and every country here has also but it's still possible to feel very relaxed in S E Asia and find a great place to live without the huge cost.

6 minutes ago, VBF said:

You're absolutely right, but, sadly, having worked in IT for several decades (the last 18 years in Development) the chance of that actually happening is VERY remote. Why? Well when you get projects that are managed from US, developed in, say, UK, the coding done in India, and the testing in UK the time and cultural differences just get  in the way, despite the best efforts of Project Management.

 

So imagine that extrapolated over several other countries, time zones and cultures and you get the idea.

 

Should it happen? No, of course not. Do people have different ideas and egos? Yup!

IMO and also IME, the only way it could work practically would be for everyone to agree that one country takes charge and all follow that country's lead.

 

Sort of like a technical version of the UN or EU.  Now what could possibly go wrong with that? ????

I understand the myriad potential difficulties and you make it very clear. It's a pity really as the global issues that now affect us all need global solutions. Couldn't our health QR codes be uploaded to a global app, such as FB for use locally or a travel app such as Airline app/Trivago for international border requirements? Considering the cost of the restrictions and economic chaos has is now in the trillions.  Are these QR codes, as I have on my NHS/UK app, unique and recognized globally? 

Thank you for the interesting reply anyway

4 hours ago, The Cipher said:

You are 100% correct. Too many people fall into the trap of viewing locations as an either/or dichotomy. But the right answer is dual-city/multi-city living.

 

That setup lets you mix and match seasons and benefits of each location and the rotation stops you from getting too frustrated or bored. Can't imagine doing it any other way.

Yes exactly right - also working hard during summers in London means I stay in the system with regards to taxes/health/investments in UK,  so it's an added bit of security. I did try living fully in various places in Asia previously but for many reasons, it didn't work for me.  We're all different with very different requirements but as you say, it doesn't need to be either/or.

Hopefully travel issues lessen and we can all get back to where we need to be when we want to be there.

Living the last 25+ winters in Bali/Thailand and the summers in UK (when it's way too hot in Thailand) I wouldn't want to go for the full year in either place - S E Asian countries offer fabulous benefits with regards to condo rentals with pools and gyms etc.. Certainly don't get that in my London area unless I paid 100% of my earnings in rent/mortgage.

But I do love the many parks in London, as well as the galleries and theatres, cricket and rugby, music, golf trips in Scotland, some great TV and radio, the bookshops all over London, no stray animals struggling to survive on streets... Of course, once the winter sets in then I'm off to the easy going happiness of life on Bali or in Bangkok. Or I was until all this engulfed us all.

I love S E Asia but been fortunate to have been able to buy a couple of nice flats in rural UK on a regular wage and also travel extensively. Most of my Asian friends in more professional jobs than mine, still live in one room and have not been able to travel in the way I once took for granted.

Sure Thailand or Bali allows me to have some amazing lifestyle experiences but UK has allowed me to do so much too that I doubt I could have done in many other countries outside of the obvious ones.

I do agree that the rental market in UK is a shambles and you need to have been here a while to know how to find the good value.

7 hours ago, alyx said:

I am sorry to say that you definitely have the wrong approach: it will never work and too difficult to control.

Bear with me : 

1) Upon arrival the traveller is offered a complimentary debit card from the bank of their choice ❤️ and ???? 

2) Granted a one way transportation to the bank where the above cited amount is deposited ???? 

3) Transportation to the hotel ( both) paid with the debit card ????‍♀️ 

4) Upon departure export of currency not being allowed,  ???? one may spend the rest in duty free ???? 

And what is not spent …. ???? 

it is a win win situation ( not for the visitor ???? mind you )

 

Sounds like a plan - it also ensures the regular Thai won't see a baht of it and the money can be drawn straight up to those that don't need it as is the case almost everywhere now - we joke but all of their restrictions and protocols suggest that would be the preferred model

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

Can you tell me what are those "free countries with transparent and accountable governments."  I am from the USA and I can assure you that the government there is anything but transparent or accountable. And looking around the world I don't seem to have the ability to locate one either. 

Sounds like you must come from either OZ or Never Never Land


By 'free' I simply mean that there is some accounting for what the govt does and that truth seeps out regardless of how it is obfuscated by those in power - the truth may lag behind by years sometimes but it gets out

 

Of course no country is perfect or even fair to most of its citizens but silly remarks about OZ aside, there are ways to expose and censor those that abuse power in some countries better than others.  We're all in varying degrees of a terrible mess, I agree with that.

1 hour ago, Longwood50 said:

 

 

By 

53 minutes ago, koratkarlos said:

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding.  The people coming into Thailand are vaccinated and tested.  Clearly masks, social distancing and alchohol shoul be used by all.  But HAZMAT suits.  Really.  I wish such efforts would be used at the local schools, markets and shopping areas where the real COVID transmission is taking place.  The central issue is to open up Thailand for the people living here now.  And do it safely.  The people arriving into Thailand under the current protocol will not adversely affect the spread of COVID, in my humble opinion.

Absolutely true - And these visitors are deemed necessary to revive a ruined Thai economic sector that will benefit many regular Thais, so make them feel welcome

I live more in Bali than Bangkok these days and what I can say is that Thailand is moving with slightly more realism than Indonesia's government, where they are complicit in the ruin and in some cases, ends of many erstwhile hard working but relatively poor people.

As with any business reliant on customers, the proof will be in the numbers and if you're selling something, then make it attractive to the largest number, if there is a genuine desire to revive the lives of Thais and their small business, that have been mostly and much more seriously by these restrictions.

Assuming every potential visitor has the funds for all of the extra financial obligations or the time to work out all of the changing requirements does not make that true. 

In Bali, the partial and restrictive opening resulted in only a ripple of interest so international airlines booked a grand total of zero slots at Ngurah Rai airport - surely a successful model will emerge!  Maybe not  : )

If they are serious about attracting the numbers required to invigorate important sectors in the Thai economy, therefore giving hope and the chance to work and earn money to the the millions of Thais utterly ruined now, then it's got to be simpler.

Choosing an arbitrary date (Nov 1st) and not providing clarity about the burden on potential visitors, therefore more endless speculation, means only one thing - no visitors and no relief to the millions of Thais who need money and hope, fast.

We al know transmission will ebb and flow, as this virus behaves like other similar flu type viruses. It's extraordinary that some are so fixated by this and yet ignore the personal responsibility to eat wisely and exercise regularly to boost personal immune responses to this and any other illness. Being unhealthy is being exposed to worse outcomes regardless with any illness.

I hope Thailand does open and I hope my hard working and peaceful Thai friends get their lives back as we hopefully transition into the more realistic realm of living with this virus to lesser or greater degrees just as we manage risk in every other part of life.

Having lived around SE Asia for most of the last 25+ years I hope these calm and peaceful countries reopen and those of us who are friends of these countries can travel again and contribute to the local economy where we travel, tip the kind staff at the hotels and restaurants and get some money back into a lot of empty pockets. 

Time for clarity and resolute aims to reopen in a way that is possible an desirable to the largest number possible of vaccinated and tested visitors. Ultimately the success on the reopening will depend on the practical sense of the rules.