Mike Lister

Yes, it's still mostly unproven theory at this point, but I think it helps to put a stake in the ground that we can test against going forward, otherwise we're constantly theorising. There's no damage done at this stage, because we're some way off from the first filing date. If anyone disagrees with that approach, they should say so.

A post that is critical of the News Team article has been removed. If the article doesn't interest you, please find something else that does.

It does not include the UK State Pension, that has been proven several times.

I don't usually buy ETF's, only managed funds, typically Level risk level 5. I'm holding a couple of bond funds (13%). One is a Vanguard Global Bond Index which tracks the Agg and is mostly longer duration bonds, all investment grade. I also use the VG Short Term bond fund as a substitute for money markets, again, investment grade only. Finally, I hold a couple of Strategic Bond Funds that include some junk but of a duration and size that is fairly safe. I'm holding 16% in Money Markets at present which is a lot but it's safe, I also have 14% in Cash. The S&P has been over valued for quite a while and it's getting worse, the spread between the S&P and Asia is pretty substantial. I don't care if the S&P is rising, I don't want to be invested in the US more than the 23% that I am.

Unless others have a different view, I'd like to extract some of the words from your post, tweak them and insert them into the document as guidance for other UK readers: 1 - UK Government Pensions. (Civil Service, Armed Forces etc) Taxed only in UK, (in accordance with the DTA) 2 - Any other type of pension that is already taxed in the UK. Not taxed in Thailand to prevent Double Taxation, or subject to tax credit reclaim. 3 - Any pensions that are not taxed in the UK. Are capable of being taxed in Thailand, should Thailand wish to tax them. Thoughts? Anyone?

The answer would seem to be that we should not use third party information sources and to restrict ourselves to Thai Revenue Department issued documentation, from hereon out. That said, I think that particular post was a one off.

I've removed a post that was highly disrespectful of another posters efforts to help clarify the tax issues. If you are unable or unwilling to express yourself in a civil manner and respect fellow posters, do not post here again. No further warnings will be issued.

We could do with some examples to show the effect of the tax, both taxed in the UK versus taxed in Thailand (for those pensions that are transportable). Any volunteers, a cpa sort of person would be good. :))

Prior to 31 December 2023, any funds that were remitted to Thailand, in the year they were earned, were potentially taxable here. This meant that a person could earn income, save it in a bank account for one year and then remit it the following year, free of Thai tax. The change to the tax law that took place last last year did away with the above and said that anything earned and remitted AFTER 1 January 2024, regardless of when it was earned or remitted, was potentially taxable in Thailand. Better?

The UK State is not a government pension and the DTA is silent on it also.

What you've written in this post is much more acceptable than your previous one which simply said: "In simple laymans terms, regarding UK Pensions, regardless of what the Revenue Code says * These pensions are only taxable in the UK" Thank you for making your views more clear. EDIT TO ADD: We just need one more thing to complete the picture and that is for the Thai RD to agree to the above......thus far it's logical theory that is backed by the DTA and known existing RD rules.

The OP has his answers, the thread will now be locked.

I believe there is a default position. If the (non-government) pension arises in the UK, it is taxable in the UK, even if the tax payer is not UK resident for tax purposes. If the tax payer takes advantage of something such as QROPS or similar, the pension can be moved to another country but that is outside of what's being discussed here. The UK/Thai DTA is silent on the taxation of those pensions but Thai RD law says that all income is assessible. The default position is that if those pension payments are remitted to Thailand, they are assessable income.

What I wrote in that post is as follows: "There is one change that sparked all this discussion, and that is that income that is remitted to Thailand, is taxable here, regardless of the year it was earned. Previously the law was that it was only taxable if remitted in the same year it was earned". Are you clear now on what is and what is not taxable under the new and old rules?

I regard your post as deliberate disinformation and further post along the same lines will be treated as such. As poster @JimGant has stated, the UK/Thai DTA is clear regarding government pensions but is silent on private pensions whilst the Thai Revenue Department states that all income is assessable. That means that private, company and potentially state pensions remitted to Thailand are regarded as assessable income that is capable or being taxed here. You know these things, Jim has made it clear as have I. Everyone is aware that DTA rules take precedent over national tax laws, that's always been understood and is why I gave you the earlier link so that you would understand it. Now stop trying to send the discussion round in circles yet again.

My US SSc is taxable solely in the US whilst my UK State is taxable in the UK, because I have other income that arises there.

No, fair comment. The approach I have taken to this is to try and post what I understand the latest view to be, based on all the conversations and evidence. Some of those views will flip flop as more becomes known and new information surfaces. The alternative is to leave the issues open without even so much as a hint as to what the correct answer may be and I decided not to do that. For example. last night, somebody researched Thai law and found a link about assessable income which I think is worth including because it comes from a respected law firm and is current information. If later it turns out to be something else, what can I say, we're not going to get everything right all the time. All DTA's are different. The US/Thai DTA allows more types of income into Thailand free of tax than the UK /Thai DTA. The UK/Thai DTA allows government pensions to be free of tax but not private and company pensions. The US/Thai DTA is different. US SSC and private pensions are free of Thai tax. So as you can see, reading Mazzars in isolation isn't helpful, you have to read what is said, in the context of the country being discussed. We are purposely not trying to create a one size fits all, we try not to delve into individual DTA's because that's where the delta occurs, one it's inevitably however there will be some country specific information included in the document. Finally, I don't really want to be Khun Tax Guy, I'm truly sorry for those people that don't get it that I, and others, are trying to be helpful with all of this. Thus far this week I've been accused of making money out of this, being employed in some industry or position that profits from these posts and of being part of government. To those people who are looking for reasons why, other than what they are, y'all need to stay out of the sun and cut down on the alcohol.

Indeed he was, which is why I wrote that "I will pay no Thai tax on the sale", meaning that when the funds are imported they will be free of tax. My apologies, I could have been clearer in what I wrote.

Forgive me for butting in but Moderator Sheryl is a highly regarded medical professional who has helped thousands of posters on this forum over nearly two decades, her response i typically trying to be helpful. May I suggest that you post more respectfully in the future.

Everything that is written in the Thai RD Tax Code is written specifically for salary earners and recipients of income in Thailand, who are tax residents. - Untrue, it covers all tax payers, including people who are native Thai's and self employed and also foreigners, hence the reference to foreigners and overseas income. a google search indicates that only 6-9 million people lodge a tax return out of a population of over 50 million over the age of 18. - The workforce is 38 million people, 11% of them file a tax return, 6% pay taxes on that return. No part of this 'new rule' ramifications have been 'tested' in a legal manner (Court) - IF the new rule were overturned, that wouldn't change anything for the large group of expats who rely on the income method and remit 65k per month of their pension every month, in the year it is earned. This exercise to raise awareness is therefore, I think, useful and helpful for many. The implementation of this new tax rule is about removing the loophole that allowed citizens and companies to invest their money (earned in their country) overseas and to then bring that money back and not pay taxes on the earnings made on that investment overseas. - Agreed.

You caught me out, I accept that I am making excuses, to a certain degree. If I wanted shot of the place I would sell but the fact is that doing so will sever my final link with the UK so there's a loss of my plan B element, as well as an emotional link. Mind you, if somebody comes along and offers me loadsamoney for the place, I'll sell in a flash. 🙂 We humans can be complicated at times, no.

Only funds remitted to Thailand are taxable under Thai Revenue tax law. You should not require any additional documentation to file a tax return. If your return is subsequently queried, the Thai Revenue may ask for further information but you should cross that bridge when you come to it. As in Australia, some small percentage of tax returns will likely be audited, there's no reason to think Thailand will be any different. The exchange rate used is that set my the Ministry of Finance (or BOT) as of the date of the funds transfer. I also have a problem in the UK with my tax year versus income received in a tax year that is different. I prorate rate things to accommodate that difference and the UK HMRC is happy with that. I suggest the Thai RD may also be happy with similar.

My experience is that tax is due in the country where the income arises, this is true of both my UK and US pensions.

I'm not sure what your purpose is in posting that extract from the US/Thai DTA, we are discussing I believe, the UK/Thai DTA. All DTA's are different. They are negotiated using the Model DTA as a starting point, thereafter, the two parties at the table negotiate the things they want, until it is capable of being agreed and signed.

Yes. I have to pay capital gains because I bought the property whilst overseas and have rented it out ever since, I have never lived in it for more than six months. I calculate I will pay UK tax of under one thousand pounds and that I will pay no Thai tax on the sale. Still, I have a fair market value price in mind which I will hold out for.