Mike Lister

In my experience here, the mugging in the OP is a very rare event. The BiB need to get a handle on such things quickly because people can just as easily stay home and get mugged,, no need to travel all the way to Thailand. Perhaps focus a little less on errant foreign pensioners on overstay and pay more attention to the antics of the local population.

"Hong Kong stocks are at a 36% discount, showing the degree to which China is undervalued currently and yet again, broadening even further the divide with the West". The strategists at Morgan Stanley are some of the biggest bears on Wall Street, Mike Wilson said recently: "However, it also implies that a slowing economy does not necessarily mean a sluggish stock market. The outlook for 2024 is therefore one of extremes. Strategists at Morgan Stanley reckon the MSCI China Index could rise by as much as 23% or fall by as much as 36% in the next 12 months". If that sounds like both having your cake and eating it, you'd normally be right. Except for Mike Wilson that 's very positive commentary, Wilson and Pritchard Evans could keep the Samaritans in business year round! As Warren says, "be hungry when others are fearful". It's a buying opportunity, who will be brave enough I wonder. :) I think that a fund which includes China but also some Developed Asia, could be a fair bet right around now, but that's just me.

People file taxes here because they interpret the rules to mean that they should file and the RD doesn't change this understanding when they do file, assessable income over 120k per year and Section 41. "Under section 41 of the Revenue Code an individual Thai citizen or foreigner who lives in Thailand for one or more periods totaling at least 180 days in any tax (calendar) year is, for tax purposes, deemed a resident of Thailand and subject to tax on all assessable income derived from sources within the country, whether paid within or outside Thailand, on assessable income derived from foreign sources to the extent that it is brought into Thailand in a year in which income is received. A non-resident individual is subject to tax only on assessable income from Thai sources, regardless of payment location". Many will be borderline cases as far as the tax calculation is concerned, I know I am and can make it go either way. A combination of income sources means I can vary my income, in some years, I pay a small amount of tax, because it's not worth the effort to explore evoking a DTA and I don't want the hassle. Neither do I, nor others that I know, not want to file and later be told that whilst regulations weren't being actively enforced at one time, later they were and they forgot to write and tell me! That sort of thing happens not infrequently here when dormant rules are recommissioned. Your point about CPA's and qualified tax preparers is worth reinforcing, especially in a non-English native language speaking environment. BUT, for people with simple financial needs, such as retirees, those who have two or three simple income streams that are well understood, it is not unrealistic to think such people can do these things themselves. The PIT Code in Thailand is much more straight forward than its UK or US counterparts. For my part, I compile my own taxes in Thailand, the US and the UK every year. I've worked in Banking Finance and business for decades plus I worked for Deloitte in the City for four years, so tax is nothing new to me, I understand it and I'm not afraid of it, at my level of need. Others mileage will vary. Thinking back to a business that I owned in the UK for 15 years, my accountant handled all the interfaces with HMRC. Not once in 15 years did HMRC audit me or challenge anything produced by my accountants (as far as I am aware). It's very likely to be similar here. If you have a Thai tax preparer with a decent reputation, you are unlikely to hear anything from the RD, year on year. But individuals are a different story, they are much easier targets to challenge and give the run around. I think it may be helpful in Thailand at some future time to have a track record of similar levels of income each year, all of which are recorded on tax returns.....but that's me. I get that many foreigners want to avoid the entire tax business, it wasn't part of their original game plan so it shouldn't become so now. Some of them will be foreigners' who will try to escape tax in any country where they have assets but of course not everyone is like that. Many people who live in a foreign country, especially retirees, are keen to play by the rules, or at least be seen to be trying to do so. But it's laughable to think that just because the Code wording isn't iron clad in English language terms or that the form isn't up to date, means that they are excused duty. That's nothing more than confirmation bias rather than any objective assessment and it's not something I agree with.

The reality is that there's nowhere to put it, on the current form but there may be on the new form.

Sorry, needs a comma after excluded, it's the fourth category and is anything excluded by virtue of a DTA. And then of course, anything remaining overseas that doesn't get transferred, is simply not considered.

II'm posting a link to the Simple Tax Guide so that it's easier to access and refer posters to.

I wrote to the CEO of uob lthree years ago, on this point. They said they need. Proof from the probate court.

I think you confuse what the tax.code says with what you wish it would say

I think the groups are, remitted, excluded assessable and taxable. Everything that gets remitted is either excluded or assesses and that which passes assessment becomes taxable

This is the same circuitous non sensicle argument that sent this thread round in circles and got it locked the last time. There is no explicit verbiage to say a foreigner must file when they only have overseas pension income, ergo they don't have to file.......it's nonesence and most rational understand that, the debate only confused people further.

There is nothing in the revenue code to say foriegners are excluded and no official source has ever said they are, some have merely assumed they didn't have to, that's all. Sound legal advice at present is that those people should file, unless anyone can post a link confirming they should not.

Except there really is no concept of non assessable income, in the revenue code, apart from that short list of odd or unusual income types, ergo, income is either excluded by dta or assessable (but not necessarily taxable)

You surprise me, very much. You will recall that the whole purpose of the rule change is to prevent people from avoiding tax, by earning money in one year and remitting it in another, a rule that took effect 1 Jan. So, people who earned money last year and remitted it last year, are taxable on that income. It's a basic premise of all of these discussions on tax, in every thread. However is any of that misleading?

I disagree with that view and I'm certain the revenue code disagrees too. But I'm not prepared to go back through this discussion loop. Expats here using the income method using income earned on the year it was remitted are required to file under current law, that's a simple fact. If they chose not to file, that's up to them.

UK tax prep for non resident expats is not vatable. My UK acct charges me 180 to file

There's no suppose about it!

It's not as simple as a yes or no answer.

Too funny.....er, no! But of my aquaintences that do file, many, like, me, have a combo of rental inc, invest, and pension.

There is nothing misleading whatsoever about saying thousands do file, especially when I said there are 300k in country. Ben got it, others seem less good at math.

I skipped out of the longer thread, this one, so no I didn't see that debate. But as long as you agree that those people should have been filing returns, that's fine...but there's no theoretically about it.

You want factual stats where there are none yet you don't think even 1% of those foriegners file returns.....really!

Let me play devil's advocate with you, just make a point. Why is filing PND 90 not filing a tax return, even though you should have filed a PND91 and declared your other income, but decided not to! Isn't that evasion?

Sorry, I don't speak emoticon! Not trying to be condescending, just seemed that you didn't know, I'm happy that you do.

It has to be anecdotal of course because the RD doesn't produce stats on this but with over 300k westerners living here and around 150k long stay expats, of course foriegners are filing taxes here. Of all the foriegners I know here, most retired, about half file tax returns, I am retired, I've filed for several years. Every time I go to the district office, I see foriegners filing returns, many just to reclaim tax withheld on savings. If you think foreign retirees dont pay tax here, you would be very mistaken. Am i taxed here? Yes, some years I allow myself to be taxed on a combo of pension and rent income from the UK, combined with savings interest and other overseas earnings. And yes, finally, I am saying that earnings that are remitted in the year they are earned, are taxable, even some pensions, if they are declared. No, savings that have sat around for years are not taxable. Tell me, after all your comments on this, are you saying you haven't read the simple tax guide because that answer is in there.

Now that the debate has become more focussed and appropriate, it's begining to help populate the zero knowledge vacuum and reduce the stress and strain the new announcement has brought, particularly on the 86 year old Edgar types in Sisaket. That has always been the objective. My major concern now is an expectation by one group that appears to think the Revenue will suddenly produce a whole raft of new rules, governing how they pay tax and that the whole tax issue will suddenly go away. It won't . It takes a long time to create the tax rules, 99.8% of what exists today, is not going to change. All the DTA's are listed and available for download from inside the RD English language site, listed in the simple tax guide. Thousands of foriegners file every year using the existing rules and those DTA's. The new rule does change things for some people, especially those using the income method who remit pension income in the year it is earned. But for others, the rules are similar to before, it's just that now we all understand they apply to everyone, not just Thai people.