Mike Lister

This may be the pub but that doesn't prevent me from finding this thread highly objectionable. Thai taxi drivers don't spit at foreigners and wave placards in their faces and berate them in restaurants, period. There's a fine line between what is humorous and satire and what is offensive, you are on the wrong side of that line at present.

My apologies for the detour but I thought it was worth trying to understand the extent to which Personal Income tax plays a role in GDP and the answer seems to be that it is very small, only about 2.1% of GDP. PIT is a small direct tax, Corporate tax is much larger plus indirect taxes such as sales tax and VAT are the largest. Plus the 6% of the workforce that contributes that 2.1% seems to imply that the grey market, which is what we started to discuss initially, is probably even larger than the 48% that I suggested at the outset. I recall the RD reporting that about 11% of the workforce submits a tax return yet only 6% pay tax. That leaves 89% of the workforce (38 million) who do not file a return and 94% who don't pay tax, those figures are astronomical. The question now is, of the 89% of the workforce who don't file returns, how many earn under the minimum required to file a return and how many constitute the grey economy? I have difficulty believing that 89% of the workforce earn less than THB 120k (10k month) or THB 220K (18.3K month) for a married couple, per year although I accept that might be true. Increasingly, grey market income is proving to be a huge amount that could change the entire government revenue budget profile, if it was harnessed, hence the tax on inflows.

Thai police to go on patrol, how novel.

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected on this but it seems after reading the 2022 budget breakdown (linked below) that Personal Income Tax revenue was THB 368, 300 bill (Page 45) whilst GDP was THB 16,997,600 bill (page 62). That means Personal Income Tax represents just over 2% of GDP and that it is paid for by about 6% of the workforce. Those things being true, it's easy to understand why the RD wants to increase the tax net and to tax overseas income from residents. My only question is why they haven't done this sooner. The tax burden to GDP ratio in Thailand is 16.4%, in the UK for example it is 34%. https://dmcrth.dmcr.go.th/attachment/dw/download.php?WP=rUqjMT04qmqZG22DM7y04TyerPMjBT01qmIZAJ1CM5O0hJatrTDo7o3Q https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/revenue-statistics-asia-and-pacific-thailand.pdf https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-kingdom/tax-revenue--of-gdp#:~:text=United Kingdom Tax revenue%3A % of GDP was reported at 27.0,Jun 2023%2C with 274 observations.

Another way to look at this is to take the 2022 government budget which comprised personal income tax revenue of THB 368 bill. (below, Page 45) Divide that by the average annual wage (15,400 x 12) of THB 184,800 which equates to 2 million workers or 6% of the workforce. An estimate from Asia Foundation below suggests 5.5% of the population pays tax which means those numbers broadly balance. So, the Personal Income Tax component of GDP, THB 368 bill., is supplied by 6% of the workforce. https://asiafoundation.org/2015/04/15/thailand-and-taxes/#:~:text=Many Thais%2C both rich and,million regularly pay income taxes. https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/thailand/publication/aging-and-the-labor-market-in-thailand#:~:text=At around 38 million%2C the,Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN). https://dmcrth.dmcr.go.th/attachment/dw/download.php?WP=rUqjMT04qmqZG22DM7y04TyerPMjBT01qmIZAJ1CM5O0hJatrTDo7o3Q https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/wages

The Social Security Fund may yield a clue. The Bangkok Post has an article that I'm not allowed to post entitled "Make Social Security Sustainable". The article states that the SSF fund is supported by over 10 million subscribers comprising salaried employees and the self employed, that's about 30% of the workforce. If 11% of the workforce pays tax and 30% are registered for SSc, and, the unemployment rate is under 4%, that means in excess of 60% don't pay tax and don't contribute to the SSF, perhaps that's the "48%" (or whatever it is) that represents the grey unreported untaxed income.

I think there is a difference between suggesting that "48% of the Thai economy is grey, unreported untaxed income", and implying that might equate to "40-50% of GDP figures commonly cited". Perhaps in part this is imprecise terminology. I had intended to imply that 48% of all earnings are unreported and untaxed, assuming the various estimates are broadly accurate. Judging from the small number of people in the tax net, that figure doesn't seem far fetched. On the surface it appears that currently, say 20% of the workforce produces 100% of the current GDP and that the 48% who do not contribute to GDP, are only capable of producing a much smaller percentage. Capturing the earnings of that 48% would not therefore double GDP but instead would increase it by a lesser amount. GDP measurement on the other hand is a different issue. GDP can be measured by the sum of all purchases, the sum of all sales, or, the sum of everything produced. Thailand uses the combination method which means all three methods are used hence the product of that calculation doesn't overlay even closely to the previous one about the earnings of the workforce and unreported and untaxed income.

Various shops and stalls that sell Pierre Cardin boxers, good quality and sensibly priced.

There are plenty of really nice ones in Chiang Mai, just do a google search.. https://bansabaicare.com/ https://www.careresortchiangmai.com/ https://www.vivobene.co.th/en/home https://chiangmai.care/list-of-care-homes-in-chiang-mai-thailand/ https://chiangmaibuddy.com/you-the-people/retirees/retirement-and-nursing-homes/

I rather like, he sounds like an indian rug salesman at Macey's.

So what's so difficult about that, I've filed taxes here for years, it's a 15 minute job that costs nothing. If others do the same and ultimately find out they have tax to pay, they may have decisions to make or they may need to adjust their money transfers.

Vacuous more like.

I just left the Moving To Chiang Mai thread to get away from you two bickering, do you plan to keep this up indefinitely!

I blinked the first time and missed it, on my second trip they forgot to fill the lake......I shalln't return soon..

We've stayed at a couple of hotels where reception used their phone to take pictures of our ID and passport. My suspicion is that doing so satisfies the law but can always be erased afterwards so the income doesn't have to be declared for tax.

Yes I agree. One of the problems is that 48% of the Thai economy is grey, unreported untaxed income, I don't know how the government can accurately estimate anything when only 50% of the economy is being reported.

The two big things that the Thai economy has going for it are its high levels of Foreign Currency Reserves and it's low levels of government debt, in particular its low levels of foreign currency loans. It's those two things that help most to keep the Baht as strong as it is. By increasing government debt from 60% of GDP to 70%, that erodes one of their main economic mainstays. IF GDP increases, as a result of this giveaway, the ratio of GDP to debt will fall and government will look like hero's. If however GDP falls, that 70% will go even higher and that is the real problem. Similarly, if GDP increases, household debt as a percentage of GDP will fall and yet again, government will look like hero's even though the actual debt figure has probably increased. No, you're not going out on a limb, the money is not permitted to be used to pay down debt, it is solely intended for purchases and to circulate within the domestic economy.

After the tank, before the faucet, at the point where water enter the home.

Yes, but, it either has to be collateralised in the form of bonds or the Ministry of Finance has to take on the loan and pay the interest until the principle is repaid, presumably it's the latter and the loan will be added to the government debt load. 500 bill. is a huge amount to add to the debt load. "Public debt outstanding as of April 30th, 2022 was at 10,046,605.17 million Baht, comprised 98.26% of local currency debt and 1.74% of foreign currency debt. Classified by remaining maturity, the long-term debt outstanding was 85.28% of total public debt and short-term debt outstanding was 14.72% of total public debt". https://www.pdmo.go.th/pdmomedia/documents/2022/Jun/4. สรุปสถานะหนี้สาธารณะ สิ้นเดือน เม.ย. 2565 Eng.pdf EDIT TO ADD: I just came across the official debt list below, it gives chapter and verse of what is owed: https://www.pdmo.go.th/pdmomedia/documents/2023/Jul/Quartery Update_July_2023_รวมทั้งหมด_v2.pdf

You would imagine that checking the validity of a visa is not the job of Thai banks but they do it. And guess what, no visa, no service! So its not impossible to think that hotels could do similar.

Moving around and spending two days here and there is an excellent idea. If you've never driven on the left and never driven in Thailand, don't start to learn now or you'll end up in hospital! The old town is nice to visit but few retirees live there, everyone else lives out of the city center. What is your accommodation budget (when retired) because that will help better understand your choices? Also, as others have said, you're coming here during the best season of the year, the air is clean, the temperatures are not hot, a visit for one week only is going to give you a very distorted view.

I couldn't agree more. There is no mileage here in spending an hour finding credible sources to support your argument because the second you post them, the poster who demanded them will walk away without so much as a thank you or any form of acknowledgement.

Either buy a water softener or clean the taps and basins all the god-damn time, up to you.

Ditto, to within three weeks in my case, purposely.

I nominate George