retiree

I've ordered from these guys for years.   They may be willing to special-order for you.

https://www.ta-to.com/en

19 minutes ago, WorriedNoodle said:

Will it reduce shingles occurrences to near zero?

See  https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd/shingles/public/shingrix/index.html  -- it's an awfully good vaccine.

And public service message for all you oldsters out getting Shingrix shots:  strongly consider getting the pneumonia series as well (two different mixes, one year apart).   If you ever wind up in the hospital -- especially if you're on a ventilator -- pneumonia is what'll kill ya'.   Available at Thai Travel Clinic and fine hospitals everywhere.  

https://www.thaitravelclinic.com/cost.html

34 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I also file a return because the rules say that anyone with assessible income over 60k per year has to.

Can you point to any place that sets out the Thailand penalty for failure to file independently of tax being due?  or when no tax is due?   Or to a publicized instance of somebody being penalized when no tax was due?

8 hours ago, Time Traveller said:

Sheryl, you should probably stop giving tax advice. 

Time Traveler, you may wish to consider not ... 

My understanding of your disagreement -- and please let me know if I have misunderstood -- is that you believe that the Thai government can now, or intends to, tax non-remitted income of non-citizen tax residents.   I believe that Sheryl demurs, as do I.

Your opinion seems to be based on this phrase from the US DTA section 20(1): 

   "... taxable only in the residence State of the recipient."

From this, you infer that:

   "For Thailand that is Residence based taxation of global income.   

   Nothing in the code says the income must be remitted into Thailand before it is taxed. "

But remittance is exactly what the code requires.  If I understand you, you are conflating the word "taxable" in the DTA 20(1) with the word "assessable" in the Thai tax law section 40.   Below:

 -- paragraph [2] says the assessable income must be remitted before a "resident" can be taxed,

 -- paragraph [3] defines "resident" as "tax resident" in this context.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html   (numbers added)

Section 41 

[1] A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

[2] A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

[3] Any person staying in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax year shall be deemed a resident of Thailand.

Again, my apologies, and please let me know, if I have misunderstood your premise.

33 minutes ago, K2938 said:

That you also have to be a Thai tax resident when you remit it to Thailand, is not clear at all ... 

Always happy to be corrected.  However, the relevant law appears to single out residents for taxation of income earned abroad (paragraph numbers mine).   Is there an alternative?

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

Section 41 

[1] A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

[2] A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

[3] Any person staying in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax year shall be deemed a resident of Thailand.

14 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Do I understand  you correctly, that the money is as long the husband's money as long it has not been assessed for IRS?

No.  Form 709 is the IRS gift tax exemption form filed by the giver.  It might be used to argue that the money belonged to the wife as soon as that form was filled and filed, even though it remained in the husband's account.  It is due Apr 15 of the next year, and I think it is filed in that year as well. 

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

This doesn't answer my question: will it be assessed as her income (ok for me), or as mine (not ok, 20% more)?

It can only be taxable to you if you:

 -- are a Thai tax resident when you earn it,

 -- are a Thai tax resident when you remit it.

If the answer to either is no, it can be a non-taxable gift to her.

If the answer to both is yes, and if one of you is audited, there are arguments earlier up re why it might or might not qualify as a gift to her.  Choose your fighter.

You can probably ensure that it will be assessed as income to her by hiring her from overseas to do some kind of consulting.  For this small amount (1m) she doesn't have to be a business or collect VAT.   I think she'd get the automatic 30% deduction as an independent contractor -- see the guides here:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/63902.html

3 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

I would advise consulting a tax accountant or lawyer before actually testing it,

What?  I was very much looking forward to the no-show job and no-show wife that Klonko might provide me to test his contention.   Let's not be hasty here.

2 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Could you please substantiate this assumption. I agree it will be most probably tax evasion if 100% of joint living expenses are financed by gift or the gifted amount is transferred back to the husband's Thai account. However, supporting the non working wife up to ≈ 50% of joint living expenses and enabling her to finance her share of living expenses from her own account is hardly tax evasion and I have found nothing to the contrary.

As I noted twice, I was giving my opinion, based mainly on the fact that this type of gift can't be deducted from the giver's income.  I might alternatively opine that:

1)  when husband sends his wife the gift, the money is his until it is actually in her account.  It might be refused by the Thai bank -- and never leave his US  account -- if:

 -- he gave the wrong purpose of payment (PoP) code, or

 -- if they suspected his wife was money laundering, or

 -- if his wife failed her bank's know your customer rules triggered by the large amount (this happened to me once at a US bank I had used for decades), or

 -- if there was simply some inconsistency between the name and account number he  provided for her. 

Note that the IRS 709 form verifying the gift is not filed until the next year.  In my opinion, when the money enters Thailand it is still the husbands.  If it is assessable, and if he is resident in that year, then it is taxable to the husband (subject to DTA).  

2)  the prosecutor might also present a reductio ad absurdum argument to the judge:  if the gift is legitimate, then the money belongs to the wife.  She can do with it what she will,  including making a gift to her husband.  From the prosecutor's point of view, and in my opinion, from the judge's as well, her gift is no more or less tainted than the husband's. 

Perhaps I can make a modest proposal?  If you were to give me a no-show job that paid 20,000,000 baht, and a no-show wife to give it to, I'd be happy to be the test case.    

54 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

However, if it is assessable income received that has received tax exemption according to law, taxpayers do not have to include it as assessable income to be taxed in Thailand, such as receiving an inheritance or receiving income received through the support of parents and trusted people, or from a spouse, as long as the money that is received does not exceed 20 millions of baht for the entire tax year.

 

It seems to allow tax residents to remit up to 20 million in spousal support to one's wife from local or foreign sources tax free,

In my opinion, the first sentence refers to a single taxpayer (but is poorly phrased / translated).  As you read it, It would allow the wife to then make a gift of that money back to her husband without tax consequences for either.  

If your interpretation were correct, then we'd expect there to be a "gift deduction" entry on the husband's tax return that would let him exempt this portion of his assessable income (just as there is a "charitable contribution" entry).  There isn't.  

In my opinion, the only circumstance under which he can transfer to his wife without one of them being liable for taxes is if either a) it wasn't assessable income for him, or b) he wasn't a tax resident when his assessable income was remitted to Thailand. 

Back in the day, when I gave my US accountant a hypothetical, his first question was always Will this pass the sniff test?   We each have our opinions about gifts,  but I'd imagine a Thai accountant would say much the same before agreeing with either of us. 

2 hours ago, Klonko said:

Tax rates after THB 310k deductibles:

THB 1m 3.9%
THB 2m 8.8%

THB 3m 12.5%

THB 4m 15.6%

Thank you, Klonko, for listing the effective tax rates on ordinary income after modest deductions.   

I'll assume your calculation is correct.   For reference the 15.6% Thai effective rate on THB 4m (about $110,000 today) is:

-- almost identical to the US self-employment tax of 15.3% (first $147K in 2022, $160K in 2023), 

-- exactly the same as the effective US income tax rate of 15.6%* on $110,000 with standard single deduction (slightly less if self-employed).  

Note that if you're a US taxpayer you can:

 -- avoid the US earned income tax (to $120K income) with the FEIE exclusion if you meet the US non-resident test,

 -- get credit against your identical Thai tax obligation (or vice versa, since you can easily pay Thailand first) if you do not meet the US test and are tax-resident here.

*Tax $17,134 / $110,000 income = 15.6%.  The % rate Turbo gives is misleading.

https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tools/calculators/taxcaster/  

Not an accountant -- just an ordinary taxpayer who is able to RTFM.

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

With that wording they can argue that the remittance was taxable because the money was earned while you were tax resident, since the year it was earned is key, not the year of remittance, as it is not assessable income whenever remitted in any tax year.

That is not what the law says.  Below, the bracketed numbers and meaning notes are mine. 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section41

Section 41 

[1] A taxpayer who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment, or from business carried on in Thailand, or from business of an employer residing in Thailand, or from a property situated in Thailand shall pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part, whether such income is paid within or outside Thailand.

Meaning: if you generate income in Thailand it is taxable, no matter where the income is paid, and even if you are not a tax resident. 

Meaning of the meaning:  if you fly in, work 1 day for a Thai company, then leave, that day's income is taxable.

[2] A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Meaning:  if you are a tax resident of Thailand your overseas income is assessable per Sec 40 and any DTA, and will be taxed only when it is remitted.

Meaning of the meaning:  other than paragraph [1] income, money that is not in Thailand is not taxed in Thailand.

[3]  Any person staying in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating 180 days or more in any tax year shall be deemed a resident of Thailand.

Meaning:  you are a tax resident only if you are here for 180 days or more in any tax year.

Meaning of the meaning:  if you are not a tax resident you will not be taxed as a resident. 

Two main points:  

First, both the website and the phone line robot automatically give you at least an automatic 30-day extension (from the day you request it, not the original respond by date, I think).

Second, the help line was very nice and super helpful and not at all stressful and said You're absolutely right; I'll cancel that notice.

Long story short:  I have a CA mailing address, but have expat-filed for decades, and haven't even been in the US for six or eight years.  Some 1099s are reported to, or shared by the IRS with, the CA FTB apparently.

First year this bothered CA was last year, for 2019.   In the phone interview, none, zero, zip of the things I was concerned about even came up:  CA driver's license, voting, library card, bank account, etc.   I just explained that I did no work in CA, and that none of the CA sources received any kind of work product from me (there was none of that economic nexus stuff, if you're versed in the lingo).  

First time it took a bit of time and a callback message to verify.  Second time (this year, for 2020 tax year) just 10 minutes -- the first operator had taken copious notes, and I just told them that nothing had changed.   

Imho easier than a non-resident filing or written response to the notice (which require a lot of those fact and figures things).   And my impression is that even a short letter or fax of explanation would have worked as well, even without documentation. 

-- Retiree

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

They answered the next day saying that even with the agreements, the resident country could still tax those pension funds but that then the US would lower the US tax dollar for dollar.  And on any earned funds, the US has a lower tax for overseas residents paying taxes to the US.  

You are getting bad advice.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf

[Article 20] Paragraph 1 provides that private pensions and other similar remuneration paid in consideration of past employment are generally taxable only in the residence State of the recipient.

... [including] The phrase “pensions and other similar remuneration” is intended to encompass payments made by private retirement plans and arrangements in consideration of past employment. In the United States ...  qualified plans under section 401(a), individual retirement plans (including individual retirement plans that are part of a simplified employee pension plan that satisfies section 408(k), individual retirement accounts and section 408(p) accounts), non-discriminatory section 457 plans, section 403(a) qualified annuity plans, and section 403(b) plans.

Quote

... and on any earned funds, the US has a lower tax for overseas residents paying taxes to the US.  

Yes -- the FEIE will reduce income tax on the first $120,000 to $0.00 by excluding it because you are not using US services and infrastructure.  And that is exactly the amount of credit -- $0.00 -- that will be applied to your income tax in Thailand, whose services and infrastructure you are using. 

It will be levied on any assessable income that was earned while you are a Thai tax resident, if and when the assessable income is brought into Thailand while you are a tax resident.

1 hour ago, KannikaP said:

Rubbish. I live here 365 days a year, I pay for all Government Services regarding Immigration and Government Hospital, and pay for infrastructure as in using the roads, by paying my road tax disc every year.

All money I send to Thailand, either in my name or my GFs, is spent in Thailand so incurs VAT.

How much more should I pay?

If I had to estimate, I'd say about the same amount as any other middle or upper-middle class Thai taxpayer who works in an office, pays income tax and VAT, makes a mandatory payroll contribution to the Social Security fund, and -- to head this off at the pass -- may even buy health insurance so that his family can get the best health care possible as quickly as possible.    

Re health care:  even the comparatively moderate government hospital bill you pay now is indirectly subsidized by training, and building of facilities that have been massively subsidized by Thailand for decades, and continue to be subsidized by younger taxpayers who use fewer services (just as you probably did in your home country). 

You haven't spent your working lifetime as a Thai taxpayer / VAT-payer, helping to build up the national infrastructure.   I can imagine that taxpayers would think it was unfair if you were able to parachute in as a senior non-citizen with greater needs than the average Thai.  

Quote

My State Pension UK, comes from money I gave to the UK Govt way back in the 1980/90s when I was working. So NOT earned in this year, let alone this Century.

It does not come from money you gave the government.  Younger UK residents are paying your pension, just as you paid for the old folks in the 80/90s.

The UK State Pension is unfunded, which means that its obligations are not underpinned by an actual fund or funds. Such schemes are often referred to as “Pay As You Go” (PAYG).  The pension payments made by the government for unfunded pensions are financed on an ongoing basis from National Insurance contributions and general taxation.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/statepensionfunds

You earned the rights you have as a UK citizen because you spent your working life helping to support other UK citizens.  It may not seem fair to some, but I would imagine that very few citizens of any country feel that all non-citizen taxpayers, residing on temporary visas, are necessarily entitled to full government benefits.   

21 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Like retiree said ( @retiree it is 120000, not 150000, right?)

If your taxable income is lower than this,  you don't have to file.

Various guides are found here, note the year-by-year tabs:

https://www.rd.go.th/english/63902.html

Legal Affairs Division, The Revenue Department, Bangkok Thailand

This is the guide to:  Personal Income Tax Return for taxpayer with income not only from employment (Tax Year 2022)

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2022/220366PIT90.pdf

In that, the minimum is only 60,000 baht.   The 120/220K limit is for employment only, viz:

Guide to Personal Income Tax Return 2022

You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions:

(1)           Your total income exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year.

(2)           You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 220,000 baht in the tax year.

Note that in either case the minimum amount required for taxation is more than the amount required for filing.  Again, though:

 -- their use of "total income" in this particular context may mean what we'd think of as net taxable income, 

 -- there might not be a penalty assessed for late filing if no tax is due.

Ask an accountant, which I am not now, and have never been.

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

But if no tax due, no return required, yes?

This question has been asked a number of times.  I don't think the RD ever says "if you don't owe tax you don't have to file a return".    It does say: 

 -- If the person is not a tax resident no return is due (unless the person earned more than 120,000 baht in Thailand)

 -- If the person is a tax resident and has not transferred or earned assessable income no return is due.

 -- If the person is a tax resident and is below the income limit for filing (120,000 baht) no return is due. 

Some points don't seem to be addressed explicitly simply because it's not clear when the word "income" (as used in passing in the RD explanations of the forms, rather than in the law) refers to: 

 -- monies before or after DTA exclusions,

 -- monies before or after DTA credits,

 -- monies before or after ordinary Thai tax deductions and exemptions.

That said, there probably is clear precedent known to any Thai tax accountant, which I am not.  

Still, I'd imagine that:

 -- it is barely conceivable that if you don't owe tax because income was excluded (as in the US DTA re Social Security) there may be some small fine for late paperwork (which in practice might never be levied).

 -- it is likely that if do owe tax because you miscalculated your tax credit or exemption, there will be a fine and penalty if you don't file.

 -- it is possible that if you don't owe tax because you have Thai deductions and exemptions, or because you are claiming DTA credits, you still must file even if the tax bill is zero, so that the RD can check your arithmetic. 

Again, these are questions that can be framed simply (without getting into the weeds of your personal tax situation) to any Thai tax accountant, also which again I am not. 

These comments just reflect my reading of the docs.  I would be happy to post any needed corrections, or to read a post from somebody quoting his or her Thai tax accountant.  

22 minutes ago, Robbyboy said:

I interpret this that my Thai wife will even be subject to this taxation on money she sends over there, even she just goes for holiday but lives in the US.

1.Taxable Person

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand.   https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

2 hours ago, DineshR said:

may I ask where you found this checklist re the first 3 questions in your note above ?

Nowhere (it was my own earlier thread).  Just inferred from reading the regulations like everybody else, and happy to extend or correct.