jasreeve17

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

I really have no feel for the short term future. I find it hard to predict. However, the longer term future is Thailand will be democractic, increasingly wealthier, a slightly better distribution of welath and coup free. How it gets there and who the villains, champions and controversial will be remains to be seen. I dount I could predict it if I treid but there opportunites for anyone or any party to come out positively. It is just down to their actions.

Our hopes are the same.

My feeling is, and always has been, that the very FIRST STEP is to get the army and their benefactors (Prem) out of politics (preferably behind bars). As far as cleaning up the politicians... Wow, what a job. They are all, so extremely bad... We need to move away from clan control, engage the electorate, throw nationalism in the bin, create visibility in all areas, make people responsible for their actions - basically, this is huge social foundation change, and it needs to start at the roots, which it will...

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

What actions are those Jas? Just curious.

To answer your question:

Pumping money into the army.

Giving ISOC more powers, time after time after time, instead of improving civil laws and undermining the army's involvement in politics.

Attempting to protect Prem under Lese Majesty laws.

Pressurising the courts to allow business to do as they wish instead of acting inline with Thai environmental laws.

Getting huge loans from foreign nations in exchange for easy corruption opportunities for his Dem mates.

Making deals with people like Nevin, in order to get power at all costs.

Giving money to ISOC to 're-educate people's idea of democracy' aimed, in his own words, directly at people that voted for MrT.

Being head of the party who have forced the county up the world corruption lists and down the world democracy lists (many well respected organizations, not my figures...)

I could go on, but I think you get the message.

Look, I'm not a hater, well maybe I hate moronic ThaiVisa folk... I didn't like MrT because of his corruption. I don't like the PAD because they are a stupid group with no positive input who are used to push forward a nationalistic agenda. Obviously I love and respect democratic principles; hence Prem and the army and the worst of the worst in my book. I should be, and I was, an Abhisit supporter. But, I judge him by his and his party's actions, not his words / lies...

By the way, jasreeve17, you are one of those "Usual suspects" you always refer too. lol

Sorry I said something bad about Mahidol.

(You've been waiting... )

You're opinion on that issue matters about as much to me as your opinion on any other. I won't think about it again, so don't trouble your pretty little head.

Are you planning to discuss the thread at some point, or just flame?

Your talk of people who are... easy to hate, and despise... is not gonna help democracy develop, IMO, or forward a debate in this or any other thread. Too much hate talk on this forum.

I would love for a great leader to come to the fore in Thailand and really force democracy forward for the sake of the Thai people. A guy who refused to participate in elections because he would lose (like his party has lost every election in their history...), and who was put into power by a coup, and now pushes forward a nationalistic agenda for the benefit of his army and elitist benefactors. A man who promises, but has never delivered: free elections... Well, for me, this is not the great democratic leader that Thailand needs, or you suggest he may be.

Of course, a rich guy who refuses to visit the poor areas of Thailand to meet the people, a guy who was educated in the most elitist environment in the world: Eton, a guy with a lovely smile whose head movements and body language are in complete contradiction to the things he says (watch the BBC interview from a few months back "Will you have elections soon": "Yes" shaking his head the whole time and blinking... "Are you the puppet of the army": "No" Nodding his head the whole time, blinling, rubbing his sweaty palms and refusing to meet the interviewer's eye. The interviewer by the way was shocked by his behaviour, she kept looking at the camera in bewilderment as if to say "Is this moron for real???'")... Yeah, Abhisit the hero... Yeah, the Dems have really proven themselves over the years too...

Call me irrational and flame me some more if you like...

By the way, jasreeve17, you are one of those "Usual suspects" you always refer too. lol

Sorry I said something bad about Mahidol.

(You've been waiting... )

I dunno if anyone really hates the reds or the yellows. At the end of the day they are groups of Thai people. Sure leaderships can be hated and even political parties but to hate all those in a movement is a pretty bad thing.

But I digress. Hijacking of threads has been going on for ages by supporters of both the main sides.

But they do Hammered; they show real ignorance and hatred, it's awful.

I've been amongst PAD and RED rallies, and I've seen that 95% of the people at the rallies were normal folk. The PAD were better dressed, turned up in nicer cars and ate from nicely prepared luch baskets, but they were decent everyday folk, just like the reds. Now, listen to some on here ranting about the violent thugs from one group or another, they do it with real intensity; I can imagine their foaming mouths as they speak...

Both sides have violent groups and have shown violence from time to time, but these are thugs brought in to cause trouble, they are not the backbone of either group. The real trouble makers are the leaders, on both sides. Worse still are the really violent gys; the army and people that order them - ah see, we get back to the thread eventually.

Hijacking of threads is silly, but it's systematic by certain posters. Some PAD blinkered boys actually have the agenda of hyjacking every thread, I strongly believe this. I also believe that at least two members on here are probably paid to do so, but less of the conspiricy theories...

Some interesting points Hammered, nicely summed up.

I'll change my words: It's a class battle, excluding the south.

Bangkok is also unique because of the money here, more folk with more of it, but most rich Bkk Thais go with the Dems; most poorer Bangkok Thais do not. Bangkok Thais are very racist in my experience; they have little respect for the countryside folk. Bangkok Thais do not agree with the devolution of power around the country; why would they when they get so much of it?

Other areas, close to army barracks for example, also have unique qualities. Korat would be one example for obvious historical reasons.

Basically, Thailand's electoral climate was one where people voted for people, and was ingrained in a class system. This is exactly the way the Dems have always worked. In recent years those foolish poor folk have started to believe that they matter and they can vote for a leader who may actually offer them some benefits. The reds and yellow battle is a class war; not only, not purely, but don't be foolish to believe the propaganda that states otherwise. The coup was part of the class war too. Every nation goes through this process, now it's Thailand's turn. The power holders in every nation turn to nationalism to defend themselves, Thailand is no different.

Abhisit is in the middle of a class war, and despite his words, his actions show very clearly what side he is on. I strongly believe that a major event will bring all of this to a head with Abhisit and Prem being amongst the big losers... Without the full support of the army the elites cannot cling onto power. A major army split leads to a breakdown of the current class system. This process may be neither pretty nor produce democratic leaders...

Kan Win is clearly winding us up again. I'm surprised he didn't lob Kanchanaburi airport into the top 10 list...

Hi 'jasreeve17',

It is too new to be put on the list. Please see below:-

Yorus truly,

Kan Win

Good stuff Kan Win.

I always come up from Thonburi by train; I was looking for an alternative, so thanks for the heads up.

Jasreeve. This is poltics we are talking about. Intellectual debate? Those two never ever go together. Obfuscate, confuse, mislead, distract, divert etc etc are the ways of politics and the even more so the PR game that goes with it these days to lead opinion. It isnt about truth or fact. This is the modern world of belief, and it a world that even Goebbels would have been amazed at but that is where we are and it isnt confined to Thailand at all where every side is as bad as each other.

And, to the politcal players it is all very very clear and understood. It is just you cant have the horrible real face exposed.

However, referring to TV this after all is a web forum and people have many reasons to come here and say what they want. It isnt an intellectual deabating place and it is imho impossible to find them on the net anyway if they exist anywhere in this day and age. Lets be honest a lot of the jousting that goes on on here is just peopel trying to wind each other up and score points which is fair enough. If I personally wanted intellectual debate I could think of a few places I would go, but I am not sure I would find it any more satisfying than what I read on TV which oddly enough better reflects street comments that are often ill informed, persoanl, belief based etc

Yes and no.

Much of what you say is true in reality, I agree.

But, many folk on here try so hard to be smart / intellectual (Not me, I know I'm distinctly average in the IQ department... ) whilst offering up such stupid comments. Look at the post above yours for example: he knows full well about the coup, the army supported PAD, abuse of martial law, public money handed out by Abhisit to the army as his first job once in power, etc...but still that poster insists in childish insults denying the reality - and on so many threads pretends to be clever too... Why do these folk bother?

Hammered, I often wonder on this new Nation inspired website why we don't just have one thread: I HATE THE REDS!

I wonder this because despite the title of any thread the usual suspects entre the fray bleating: I HATE THE REDS, and they do so in such a hate filled blinkered fashion that it's almost farcical. So, yes it is all politics, but we have different threads with different titles on different subjects. So, let's at least try to do the thread titles justice. Or, is that asking too much???

Some good points in posts #7 and #8, IMO.

Talk is cheap. The Dems have never won an election, I can't see any reason for that to change now... If Abhisit believes otherwise then put it to the test: UN monitored free elections - easy.

The Dems facade is a total joke. Most Thais, in my experience, feel and say this; have heard this from them for years. The Dems are pro big business and big handouts (to themselves), they are unbelievably corrupt... The difference is they do very little, if anything, for the masses... The idea that the Dems are somehow less corrupt than any other group is hilarious, frankly.

I do not believe that Thais are split by a regional divide. It is a class divide, pure and simple; not with regard to the politicians from various parties; they're all in it for the money, but with regard to the voters. There are more poor folk in Thailand than rich, thus the Dems who are an elitist support group will never (have never) win an election, IMO. But, I eagerly await the next election, that Abhisit has promised so many times, so we can stop the speculation and find out the truth...

By the way: this thread is about Abhisit - check the title...

p.s. No great surprise that the Nation was involved in this propaganda piece...

Many ridiculous comments on this thread, by the usual suspects.

The motion was very relevant and needs to be addressed. Prem is involved in politics, and has huge influence in politics, allegedly, even though, if it is indeed true, it would be 100% illegal. Coups, stuff like that, are illegal...

For the Dems to drag Jatuporn's mother into the debate and turn the house into a scene from a zoo is disgusting and unacceptable behaviour.

The above two points are clear...

You could argue that a legal case would be more appropriate than a house motion, that'd be worthy of some thought, and both views have merit, IMO. You could also argue that Prem is too powerful or too close to certain institutions, to even be discussed (it was only a few months ago that Abhisit presented the idea of adding Prem to the Lese Majesty list...), that may be a sad truth behind the totally false facade of Thai politics (i.e. democracy), and worthy of discussion too.

However, instead of interesting debate, the ThaiVisa posters, in their wisdom have decided to spin the matter in hand, and attack a red shirter instead...

Is Jatuporn horrible? Probably.

Are all the others in the house as bad? Probably.

QUESTION TO ThaiVisa POSTERS: Should we have intellectual debate? ANSWER: NO, let's throw insults instead and completely forget the motion, it's REAL importance within Thai politics and the diabolical behaviour of the Dems who are protecting the guy who told the army to put them in power, allegedly...

Scott makes a great point: reading is key.

I teach a lot of writing courses, and they are designed for specific purposes; not to generally improve your writing. I've taught IELTS, TOEIC, TOEFL, SAT... None of which would help your wife to generally improve her writing.

Last year my missus asked me to help her improve her writing skills, so I gave Mrsjasreeve17 'The Beach' by Alex Garland and a notebook. I asked her to read five pages per day then write a one page summary. We worked through the summary word by word, sentence by sentence, paragraph by paragraph. It took me around an hour per day. By the end of the book her writing had improved to a standard that would be acceptable by an international company based in Thailand.

I've taught English majors from the 1st year to their 4th, then through their MA. If they don't read regularly and write a daily diary (both in English, obviously) then their improvement is limited... Adversely, I've a couple of English majors now who write their own blogs every day; their writing is better than mine...

Depends on where you work and what city you live in.

With tutoring I was making 40k+ in Chiang Mai, my wife (Thai) pulled in about 50k.

About 85-95k/month depending is pretty dam_n good IMO. We also worked at a Govt School.

Your wife is doing really well. Some of my Thai colleagues (30 years old, Chula MA, GPA 4.0) earn about a quarter of that. As a teaching couple your joint salary is really good; well above average.

Dave would be doing very well to be earning 40k to start with, possible though.

Dave, hourly rates range between 300 baht per hour to 1500 plus, but realistically you're looking at 350 / 400 baht per hour to start with. Or, a salaried contract with a school that's probably around the 30k per month mark.

I find it hard to live comfortably (in Bangkok) on less than 45k per month. I know teachers who earn 30k per month and are happy enough, though I wouldn't want their limited lifestyle myself...

I'd like to add that:

Sukhothai is a great place for Loy Kratong...

I stayed in a guesthouse directly opposite the main park gates for 400 baht. An excellent aircon room with hot shower and tv (300 baht for a fan room, 150 baht for a room with shared bathroom). This was a really nice place, modern and clean, not backpacker bargain basement...

If anyone is wondering what to do next week, you probably couldn't do much better than popping to Sukhothai for the festival (starting on Thursday) and the great museaum / national park. Very friendly local people and cheap. If I wasn't working next week I'd be there, truly.

That's the end of my piece for TOT...

Heng said: "Well, unless you're actually planning on moving in with us, next door is a couple hundred meters in each direction. I don't think even your 'top of the line' AJ system from Carrefour will carry that far. I actually like traditional Thai music, I always make a point of playing it in our lobby, keeps up the illusion that we're assimilated 'locals,' and not puppet masters pulling all the strings while quietly humming the Imperial March like the Chinese sith lords that we are.

It's all academic really, so the place wasn't colonized. It's was a different world then. It's like reminiscing about national championships in football if you go to Yale. It's unlikely that those times will ever come about again."

I'll have you know my inlaws have a BigC storecard... seeing is believing those BigC soundsystems (or should that be hearing is believing?). As we speak, my realtor (used a horrible American word just for you...) is searching out a house next to yours; I told him to find the Chinese looking bloke with a tuk tuk in his driveway covered in American college stickers... Best to double glaze your lobby soon as possible!

BTW, Yale and football don't go together. If you'd said Ipswich Town and football then I'd of understood you - especially with regard to forgotten glory.

So really its Muay Khymer!

hehe

I'm not sure (though some folk claim it to be true). I was being a bit tongue in cheek with that one, but there is some evidence at Angkor that appears to be hundreds of years earlier than any mentions of the sport in Thailand. I've never seen or heard of any absolutely conclusive evidence.

I wouldn't say it to a Thai because it's their national sport (I wouldn't want to hear that football was invented in France!). Though I'd be interested in hearing from a historian who has the full story, if one exists.

These areas just reinforce the truth behind Thailand's history: it's a mishmash of various cultures from around the region from India to China, and probably beyond. And, the place is all the better for it...

I have heard/read some Thais claiming even Angkor belonged to Thailand/Siam.

But shouldnt it be the other way around - most of the land, what is now central Thailand, was under Khmer rule, which we associate nowadays with present day Camboge?

At one time Angkor did belong to the same dynasty that ruled Ayudthaya - they were of course from a Khymer lineage (and some say brought Thai boxing to Thailand [see the drawings on the walls of Angkor that predate Thaiboxing, in Thailand, by hundreds of years...], but don't say that out loud...)

If you're willing to train them up then you could do an open day for fourth year students at one of the top English language universities. The entire, just graduated in English, Thai population seem to spend 90% of their time on facebook before enrolling on MA courses because they can't find a job. Can you put a very focussed add on facebook?

Just a thought, no flamming please...

She might be able to retest at Chula - it'd be worth getting into Chula. The arts department is number one in Thailand... Their International courses are very well respected too. I helped a student get onto the International business course; very hard because she had to pass the US SAT test, but passing that degree will give her a huge head-start. This course may also have the option of studying abroad - I know you get a couple of shots at that entrance exam. If it was my daughter I'd push hard for this course.

Thammasart courses are excellent - Tha Pra Chang campus seems to have really good students. A good campus for making connections which may help around job time because it's a small campus with a lot of students from rich families.

There are some teachers on this forum from Mahidol and Kasetsart, so I have to be careful - I don't rate either (English language courses) anywhere near as highly as the top two, above. Both are good unis to have on your CV though, so a high GPA from these two would be very helpful in getting a job.

You need to check out the individual courses, but many have a major / minor option, so you could study, for example an English major with Art History minor. It depends on her skills and preferences; options abound.

Cost-wise the universities vary, so check out the websites. Chula and Thammasart will be more expensive than most, but not prohibatively. The international courses are more expensive still, sometimes a lot more money.

The private Unis are likely to be more expensive; Bangkok, Siam, ABAC... Again, we have some teachers from these unis on the board, so I'm going to be hated even more; I've heard that many employers do not rate these certificates as highly as the four universities named above; the stigma is that you pay for a pass and can't be failed - this may not be true, but check with some employers to get a better idea. If you have a few friends who work in companies then just ask them to check with their HR departments which graduates they will consider for employment and which they won't...

I work at Chula and Silpakorn (Tha Chang campus). The latter has a strong English course because we have only 45 English majors per year with 3 full time foreign teachers focussing on these students. The Thai teachers are all fluent with PhD's from abroad (this is normal at the top 10 government universities, as the four above). It's also a very fun university because we're within the archaeology faculty within a very small arts orientated campus. Some of our students turned down Chula and Thammasart becuase they wanted a more relaxed environment. Our students do pretty well in the job market, probably not quite as well as the four universities listed above, but close(ish). We certificate the tour guides, so if that's an area she's interested in then Silpakorn's a solid choice.

Other folk will no doubt mention other good courses and good universities. I've missed out quite a few; Chiang Mai university is very good, for example.

Good luck.

And, don't forget to look through the ThaiVisa teacher's forum for other similar threads.

For Heng: During the 12th century there was a lot of Chinese earthernware coming into Thailand, but the indeginous population didn't show any Chinese qualities in their religion, buildings or traits. Thus, you could presume that the Chinese traders started to come here around the 12th century (perhaps a little before?) and stayed on in dribs and drabs, gradually heading further and further south. Perhaps making their first settlements in Nakhon Sawan as an easy base to trade with various major kingdoms of the time?

Um, thanks for the info. I didn't know that. We got here much later, in the 1930's. Got out of Nanking before things started getting ugly. I'd say that was a good call.

Yep, good choice by the ancestors; missed the Japanese horrors and the 'cultural' revolution. Glad you made it, my extended Issan family will enjoy living nextdoor to the Sino-Thais from Nanking. I'll remind them to bring their sound system - you'll just love the traditional music starting daily around 5am.

Will the Chinese get upset when only 75% of the roads are built and never connect to anywhere. Or, after the first bit of rain they crack up and fall apart because the 1 million baht per metre super durable concrete was replaced with 1 baht per metre sand, by the local Pu Yai...

In the UK we have Roman, Viking, French, Norma + + + influences in our buildings (look at our great Noman buidings), language (Roman numerals) and religion (French and Spanish influences), all on a Celtic (German) background... Thailand is exactly the same.

i like the broader view you are suggesting. putting the things in a much wider historical context.

but try doing long division with Roman numerals and than say thanks to the Hindu–Arabic numeral system and a Persian mathematician.

I agree 100%, which is the point I always make to Thais: why deny the strengths in your make-up??? Harking back to a 'culture' which never actually existed while rubbishing the elements that make up your identity is insanity...

The UK became strong because we took in, often were forced to, different words, numbers, phrases, ideas, concepts and everything else. The sooner Thais accept their great heritage as a mix from many different cultures and people, the better they will become and the more they will achieve in the future.

I'd add that the current Thailand has not been established for such a long time, and before the 'Bangkok period' land borders changed a lot.

The Sukhothai period (roughly 12th to 16th centuary) is very famous with King Ramkhamhaeng being, perhaps, the most famous king. He introduced the basis of the current Thai alphabet for example; you can see this with a comparison of Khymer, Pali, Sanscrit, Lanna and other languages in the main museum at Sukhothai - my favourite historical museum in Thailand. The Sukhothai area covered areas of Northern Thailand and current day Burma, a bit of central Thailand too. They didn't suddenly die out, they just moved their capital city inside current day Burma - their artwork is perhaps the most beautiful from all the Thai regions wih Lanna (nothern), Tai (central?) and Burmese (Indian) input. The Thais don't like to admit the Burmese element because they consider themselves better than the Burmese...

From the same time, and up until a later date the Ayudthaya period stretched all the way from Angkor, to begin with it was effectivevly ruled as a fieifdom from the Khymer rulers and just morphed into prodominantly Thai, over the years. Of course they are very heavily influenced by Khymer everything - which the Thais do not like to admit because they consider themselves better than the Cambodians...

If you watched the recently made films where the Thais fought with the Burmese, this is simply untrue. The Thais depicted were a tribe that included many groups including Burmese, Tai and Cambodian (A bit like the Normans who many consider to be French but were in fact partially Dutch, covering some of Denmark and Germany too) - their geographical territory was not purely Thailand. The Burmese depicted were groups made up of Burmese, Tai and Lanna - their geographical territory was not purely Burma.

You can throw in some tribes from Laos too because they ruled large parts of present day Thailand from time to time, as Laos was ruled by others on occasion. Famously, the Emerald Budha was looted from Laos, just like the Mandalay gold was looted from Ayudthaya. Earlier still the Sukhothai gold was looted by another group...

Nakhon Pathom was earlier still and seperate from the other kingdoms with less Khymer and Burmese influences (but some); many folk suggest Taiwanese input (the tribes originally from Taiwan who made their way through Indonesia and along the island chains through Tonga, Samoa and Fiji to New Zealand. The Chinese only entered Taiwan relatively recently)...

Over the last 2000 years Britain has been completely bastardized. Thailand has a very similar history squeezed into the last 900 years - before then, Thai history is vague.

If you're really interested in Thai history then Sukhothai national park would be a dream come true. Two days cycling around all the history you'll need with a wonderful museum too.

The basic point I'm making is Thailand was never Thailand, so it didn't exist to be colonized... It's a bit like saying Slovakia has never been colonized and leaving it there; ignoring thousands of years of movement and different ruling groups.

I'll repeat my original thought: this point was yours, not Tomahawks - it's the point you spun his comment into.

I'll await his reply with interest to see if this was indeed his point, or just your spin of it...

The first 6 or 7 times I got the plane home; I haven't done that in nearly a decade.

I used to avoid going to Starbucks, Burger King and Subway; now I look forward to the treat.

I used to stare at the beautiful dark skinned ladies; now I find them ugly and consider the Chinese Thais to be the beautiful ones...