SanukJoe

Yeah, if you are getting married before your first visa run, expect a few surprises.

You write in jest, but a lot of ppl marry before they live here. Heck, to get an non-oa a marrige is kinda required.

Or be an old fart like me

Joe, was a sinsod paid for your wifes first marriage?

Sure, and returned!! You really don't get it hah?

Some farang tradition: bride wears white dress, as a sign she is virgin

You realise how many divorced women (with kids) marry in white?

Joe, was a sinsod paid for your wifes first marriage?

Sure, and returned!! You really don't get it hah?

yes i would. it would have meant that i would have forever thought that i had bought my wife. there would always have been a doubt in my mind.

it was something i was not willing to compromise on. compromises were reached on other issues on both sides, but this was fundamental to me.

i made that clear when it was obvious that things were getting serious. if it had been fundamental to her that a sinsod was paid then i would have walked away, as painful as that would have been.

As I said twice before: you really loved her then!

you should face facts joe. im not having a personal go at you. divorced thai women with kids are not 'sinsotable'

i dont agree with it but they are viewed as used goods.

Sin sot is paid to families of women in Thailand. Not all follow it but the majority. I guess you are confused by something else.

It is known that thai men don't like to marry divorced women (with kids) that is something else and totally different. Why they don't want? Because they want to make their own children! That's why so many children are raised by their grandparents, to give a divorced woman a chance to find a new (thai) partner again.

We farangs are not so sensitive in that. In farangland 3 out of 4 marriages get lost and divorce, divorced men and women remarry, no problem. So that might explain why not many thai men pay sin sot to the family of a divorced woman, they don't marry them! Fact. The few that marry them pay sin sot as the majority does.

I still find you insulted the women of those who paid sin sot, you say you did not intend to, then be a man and say sorry.

Joe

i didnt pay a single satang. i made it clear from the very outset of the relationship that i would not pay a sinsod.

when it came down to meeting her parents the mum said 'we are not isaan we don't want a sinsod'. they are from the north.

her dad said that he expected me to look after his daughter for the rest of her life and that would be enough. he said to keep all of my money to help us start our life together as man and wife.

i was fully prepared to walk away if they had insisted on it as i would not want to pay for a wife the same a man pays for a prostitute.

it is the completely wrong premise to start a marriage.

From your first post clever boy. All who pay are insulted by your waords as you call their wives prostitutes!!!

Remember what you wrote before accusing others!

Joe

in my eyes, there is a connection between paying a woman and her family a sum of cash for marriage and paying a woman for sex. there is an exchange of cash for a service. would you disagree that there is any connection between these two processes?

that is why i was uncomfortable with the idea of a sin sod. i married my wife for love with no exchange of cash involved and that was the only way i was prepared to do it.

dont even bother trying to pick holes in my posts old man in an attempt to take the sting out of what jing jing said from the comfort of his pc.

You still, after all the posts and recommendations, not read the topic on sin sot, MS wasa referring to it again and urged people to read it before writing about sin sot. You still have no idea what it really is. You still mention it's money to buy the girl, to get permission to marry her.

NO sir, NO, NO, NO

Sin sot is not paid for a service (like with prostitutes) and as someone mentioned: would anyone ever get money back from a protitute??

You called my wife a prostitute as I paid sin sot. That is a mean and low level insult. So your overreacted posts about knocking and meeting are also far below any level, as now you feel suddenly what it means if your wife is insulted. Why don't you stop insulting and being agressive and read the topic "sin sot, what is it?"

Joe

i read the topic when it first went up, when another of these regular threads was going.

i understand sin sod, but i didnt pay it and never would. the wife's family didnt want one and suggested that it wasnt their culture to want one (nothern thai culture is very distinct to isaan)

i didnt call your wife a prostitute, i never would. however you yourself have said she is a divorcee (with kids???) and no thai man would pay a sin sod under those circumstances - even if he had read the topic on sin sod on thaivisa....

that's not a personal insult but a fact.

Just out of curiosity: would you have left your GF if sin sot was a big item? I mean the girl you loved so much would be left alone because of a handful of bucks which you get back anyway? Tell me, would you have ended the relationship?

Joe

i didnt pay a single satang. i made it clear from the very outset of the relationship that i would not pay a sinsod.

when it came down to meeting her parents the mum said 'we are not isaan we don't want a sinsod'. they are from the north.

her dad said that he expected me to look after his daughter for the rest of her life and that would be enough. he said to keep all of my money to help us start our life together as man and wife.

i was fully prepared to walk away if they had insisted on it as i would not want to pay for a wife the same a man pays for a prostitute.

it is the completely wrong premise to start a marriage.

From your first post clever boy. All who pay are insulted by your waords as you call their wives prostitutes!!!

Remember what you wrote before accusing others!

Joe

in my eyes, there is a connection between paying a woman and her family a sum of cash for marriage and paying a woman for sex. there is an exchange of cash for a service. would you disagree that there is any connection between these two processes?

that is why i was uncomfortable with the idea of a sin sod. i married my wife for love with no exchange of cash involved and that was the only way i was prepared to do it.

dont even bother trying to pick holes in my posts old man in an attempt to take the sting out of what jing jing said from the comfort of his pc.

You still, after all the posts and recommendations, not read the topic on sin sot, MS wasa referring to it again and urged people to read it before writing about sin sot. You still have no idea what it really is. You still mention it's money to buy the girl, to get permission to marry her.

NO sir, NO, NO, NO

Sin sot is not paid for a service (like with prostitutes) and as someone mentioned: would anyone ever get money back from a protitute??

You called my wife a prostitute as I paid sin sot. That is a mean and low level insult. So your overreacted posts about knocking and meeting are also far below any level, as now you feel suddenly what it means if your wife is insulted. Why don't you stop insulting and being agressive and read the topic "sin sot, what is it?"

Joe

i read the topic when it first went up, when another of these regular threads was going.

i understand sin sod, but i didnt pay it and never would. the wife's family didnt want one and suggested that it wasnt their culture to want one (nothern thai culture is very distinct to isaan)

i didnt call your wife a prostitute, i never would. however you yourself have said she is a divorcee (with kids???) and no thai man would pay a sin sod under those circumstances - even if he had read the topic on sin sod on thaivisa....

that's not a personal insult but a fact.

You miss the nail every time again. Your first post tells that every man who pays sin sot is comparable with a man paying money for a prostitute, right? So all men who paid sin sot have prostitute wives. If you didn't want to say it that way, be a big man and apologise.

Divorcee no sin sot. Read posts of Else (Isaan woman, highly educated, living in USA) mentioned no difference if a woman is virgin, had sex before is was married before.

Read posts of Old wandere who tells about his THAI brother in law paying sin sot whilst marrying a divorced woman with kid.

You have no idea, you just open your mouth and think something clever is coming out. Have you read the topic now about sin sot? Or you don't bother?

Joe

You don't say how old she is - this makes a big difference in terms of whether a sin sot should be paid and the amount. If she's 35 years old, then she would think she had won the lottery if she got sin sot after being married.

I'd rather hear experiences than opinions.

Also you still haven't the slightest idea what sin sot is. You keep it treating like the buying price of cattle, the older the cow the less money. How can people so narrow minded?

Read my posts on sin sot I paid and you might understand that it was not a big deal (not a lot of money) and it was promised on forehand (wives arrange that with their parents) that I would get it back.

To feed your curiosity: my wife is 33 years old, mother of 2 wonderful kids (9 and 6) and we adopted the daughter of her brother (4). As posted before WE decided to marry (nothing to do with sin sot) and the engagement ceremony was filled with laughter because of talking about sin sot. It was not relevant as my wife told me before I would get it back. What's the problem?

On top we got 2 rai to build the house on, so I don't need to buy that land, a real win/win situation.

Joe

Since Joe got the Sin Sod back anyway, does it matter in the slightest?

Thanks MS, you hit the nail.

i didnt pay a single satang. i made it clear from the very outset of the relationship that i would not pay a sinsod.

when it came down to meeting her parents the mum said 'we are not isaan we don't want a sinsod'. they are from the north.

her dad said that he expected me to look after his daughter for the rest of her life and that would be enough. he said to keep all of my money to help us start our life together as man and wife.

i was fully prepared to walk away if they had insisted on it as i would not want to pay for a wife the same a man pays for a prostitute.

it is the completely wrong premise to start a marriage.

From your first post clever boy. All who pay are insulted by your waords as you call their wives prostitutes!!!

Remember what you wrote before accusing others!

Joe

in my eyes, there is a connection between paying a woman and her family a sum of cash for marriage and paying a woman for sex. there is an exchange of cash for a service. would you disagree that there is any connection between these two processes?

that is why i was uncomfortable with the idea of a sin sod. i married my wife for love with no exchange of cash involved and that was the only way i was prepared to do it.

dont even bother trying to pick holes in my posts old man in an attempt to take the sting out of what jing jing said from the comfort of his pc.

You still, after all the posts and recommendations, not read the topic on sin sot, MS wasa referring to it again and urged people to read it before writing about sin sot. You still have no idea what it really is. You still mention it's money to buy the girl, to get permission to marry her.

NO sir, NO, NO, NO

Sin sot is not paid for a service (like with prostitutes) and as someone mentioned: would anyone ever get money back from a protitute??

You called my wife a prostitute as I paid sin sot. That is a mean and low level insult. So your overreacted posts about knocking and meeting are also far below any level, as now you feel suddenly what it means if your wife is insulted. Why don't you stop insulting and being agressive and read the topic "sin sot, what is it?"

Joe

Respect guys. We respect your decision to not pay, please respect our decision to pay and follow thai culture and tradition. We did it voluntarily, we don't regret it and we were not scammed. There are stories of scams, absolutely, but as someone mentioned, you get what you are yourself. On top a couple of scams doesn't mean it's general, right?

Joe

Eh? So you are saying that the blokes that got scammed had it comming?

Some blokes are too stupid to realise that the BG who is telling them they fell in love are playing games. If you are that stupid you deserve to be scammed. It's all about reality. If sin sot is 2 million: crazy but still up to the guy. I know in Isaan families are ashamed of daughters who work as a BG, they don't expect sin sot. But as BG are used to go for the money they will tell the guy it's necessary while culture.

You see we have 2 ways to look at it. Serious girls/women who live to their culture and stick to it, families who are proud of their daughters, who gave their daughter education although they had no money. And then girls (not only BG) who exploit thai tradition by telling her "boyfriend" that he needs to pay it (to her preferably). It goes in her pocket and bye bye BF.

As there was a question about it: yes I'm married to a thai (Isaan) woman, not 20 years old, not left school at 7, but a well educated woman who had a good job before she was left by her thai husband.

She is a pearl in the sea, shines like a diamond, is more careful with money than I am and showed me what real love and commitment means.

Joe

i didnt pay a single satang. i made it clear from the very outset of the relationship that i would not pay a sinsod.

when it came down to meeting her parents the mum said 'we are not isaan we don't want a sinsod'. they are from the north.

her dad said that he expected me to look after his daughter for the rest of her life and that would be enough. he said to keep all of my money to help us start our life together as man and wife.

i was fully prepared to walk away if they had insisted on it as i would not want to pay for a wife the same a man pays for a prostitute.

it is the completely wrong premise to start a marriage.

From your first post clever boy. All who pay are insulted by your waords as you call their wives prostitutes!!!

Remember what you wrote before accusing others!

Joe

not me, the mother in law, but i guess you cant really call her a thai expert seeing as she is thai and has never left the place!

better to take the work of some old bald farang with a ''countryside'' wife

She probably realises her son- in- law is a tight wad, so is saying that to try and save face all round

Got to agree with you on this one, Jack. Exactly what was in my mind.

Agreed, it's obvious the family believe in Sinsod as earlier Leftcross quoted his girlfriend as saying no sinsod might be a problem with the family. I guess his girlfriend knew their position on it.

Can only assume that his Mother in law tried to save his face. Lefty didn't even notice being such a well trained farang husband, the type who only gets 'Thai culture' advice from the wife and the MIL .

actually if you read what i wrote you will see you have completely misunderstood what i was saying.

1 - i said to my gf i wouldnt pay a sinsod

2 - she said that didnt bother her.

3 - but, knowing how thai girls often agree with what you are saying to avoid confrontation i was prepared to meet her family and for them to disagree and demand one.

4 - i met the folks and the mother-in-law said 'we are not isaan we dont want a sinsod'

strange how many posters on here fail to acknowledge there are many different ways in thailand. i would just say to people thinking of getting married that you should folow your instinct on this one. i wasnt prepared to pay one under any circumstances.

Ain't that the truth!

Some of posters here that think that they are "experts" should read your post twice.

Ok let's make it clear what is happening here:

55% didn't pay sin sot or don't admit it

45% paid sin sot

Of these 45% I think I read 1 (one) guy not totally happy with it.

That means that more than 97% of the paying posters are happy with what they did!

More important: those 45% (the payers) did not insult or ciritise the non-payers for not paying, the red line is: if you don't want to pay, don't pay.

On the other hand a bunch of non-payers (and know-it-alls) insulted and critised the payers, I don't have to recall any insult, it's all here in this thread.

Why guys?

We don't say you're stupid to not pay, why you say it's stupid to pay?

We say and it's a fact, that sin sot is a thai tradition in their culture for hundreds of years, far more Thai men pay sin sot than a handful of farangs. You guys say you don't accept it, you are farang and no matter you live in a host country, you do what you used to do at home and everybody who does not is stupid (just to name one word).

If you don't want to accept thai culture, fine, up to you. But don't critisise those who have enough level and manners to adapt to the culture and tradition of the country they live in.

Respect guys. We respect your decision to not pay, please respect our decision to pay and follow thai culture and tradition. We did it voluntarily, we don't regret it and we were not scammed. There are stories of scams, absolutely, but as someone mentioned, you get what you are yourself. On top a couple of scams doesn't mean it's general, right?

It might be a good idea to close this thread as no one will contribute new visions I'm afraid.

Joe

excuse me joe,

where do you live as i would like to meet you on my next trip.

cheers

It's a tiny little village in Chaiwan District, near Udon Thani.

If you need full address PM me ok?

Cheers mate

Joe

Terry, too much Fosters or Dutch beer? I see no message...

excuse me joe,

where do you live as i would like to meet you on my next trip.

cheers

It's a tiny little village in Chaiwan District, near Udon Thani.

If you need full address PM me ok?

Cheers mate

Joe

Well, I've been away for awhile, although not even one day , a lot of posts and a lot of commotion, a lot of crap too.

A guy who walks away or let his gf walk away if sin sot is an item, and still trying to convince us he loved her to pieces eternally... BS, poor guy

Meemiathai, don't let them make you upset, it's not worth it. As I told before you cannot change a donkey into a horse. Once a donkey always a donkey. I remember donkeys having these eye-flaps so they could only look straight forward, how relevant on some posters here....

MS is right on BKK rich men. I think in general there is (in any country) a lot of difference between people in big cities and people in the rest of the country. I have lived a 30 years in a big city and 27 years in the country, I see a huge difference in mentality. BKK is far more westernised than the rest of Thailand (I don't mention tourist areas) and accordingly the mentality is different, harder, more selfish, distant. Probably a rich thai man in BKK would not bother about bargirls, he would marry in his class and have one or more Mia noi...

Joe

the problem is the stupid farang who met and marry a local within a space of a few months not bothering to learn about there future spouse and local customs.

i have no sympathy for these desperado's.

Oh really, I met my wife in Sydney, 4 weeks later I popped the question and 3 Months later we were married. I had never been to Thailand and didn't know anything about the country. Now 17 years later we are still together and still going strong. For a bloke that's never been married you sure have a lot of opinions on the subject.

On another point you suggested Australia had no culture as it "was only 200 years old", obviously you did not include the original custodians of the land OUR Aboriginals who were here 65,000 years ago. Have you ever done a bit of of bush walking and caving in Northern Australia? The evidence of this Aboriginal culture is well documented.

You're lucky to have found your wife and to stay so long together, great!

It used to be common to get to know each other say for at least 6 months, with thai women farang seem to forget that and marry after 3 weeks (some), I don't mean you. You are an example of "love at first sight". Cheers

Terry was right about aussi culture and I wrote it before in one of my posts: Australia, if you talk farang, has not a long history and culture. I wrote that the culture in Australia is Aborigins, in NZ Maori and in USA native Indians. Terry meant the culture westerners are proud of and he is right.

Joe

Actually Joe I quite like the way you have supported your views on sin sod. You are right for the reasons and way that you have done it. The best part about it that you respect those that did it in a different way, like me for that matter. I reckon that's a good excuse for a few "Non Dutch" beers together sometime somewhere, cheers mate.

Cheers mate, if you insist I'll even drink Fosters

i didnt pay a single satang.

You really loved your wife then, I can see that!!!

Joe

i really loved my girlfriend, as she was at the time. i wanted to spend the rest of my life with her and thought as much the moment i met her.

but i was never going to pay a sinsod, as it goes against many basic premises of what i regard as a healthy relationship. i told her that from the very start so that if it was an issue with her she could have walked away.

however i realised that even if she said it wasnt a problem then it might be for her family.

luckily my now-wife's family held a similar viewpoint. they aren't rich people but they aren't poor either. they are as middle class as you can get for thailand.

sinsod is mainly an isaan tradition and it is a system so easily exploited for foreigners as the family cry 'thai tradition' when the reality is most westerners can take care of their daughters for the rest of their in a far better financial manner than the majority thai men.

As I said: you really loved your GF, everyone can see that!

Sin sot is not Isaan but Thai (and beyond that as you could have read) and not for farangs but for all men, still many more thai men marry thai women than farang men, and pay sin sot, the majority!

Joe

the problem is the stupid farang who met and marry a local within a space of a few months not bothering to learn about there future spouse and local customs.

i have no sympathy for these desperado's.

Oh really, I met my wife in Sydney, 4 weeks later I popped the question and 3 Months later we were married. I had never been to Thailand and didn't know anything about the country. Now 17 years later we are still together and still going strong. For a bloke that's never been married you sure have a lot of opinions on the subject.

On another point you suggested Australia had no culture as it "was only 200 years old", obviously you did not include the original custodians of the land OUR Aboriginals who were here 65,000 years ago. Have you ever done a bit of of bush walking and caving in Northern Australia? The evidence of this Aboriginal culture is well documented.

You're lucky to have found your wife and to stay so long together, great!

It used to be common to get to know each other say for at least 6 months, with thai women farang seem to forget that and marry after 3 weeks (some), I don't mean you. You are an example of "love at first sight". Cheers

Terry was right about aussi culture and I wrote it before in one of my posts: Australia, if you talk farang, has not a long history and culture. I wrote that the culture in Australia is Aborigins, in NZ Maori and in USA native Indians. Terry meant the culture westerners are proud of and he is right.

Joe

i didnt pay a single satang. i made it clear from the very outset of the relationship that i would not pay a sinsod.

when it came down to meeting her parents the mum said 'we are not isaan we don't want a sinsod'. they are from the north.

her dad said that he expected me to look after his daughter for the rest of her life and that would be enough. he said to keep all of my money to help us start our life together as man and wife.

i was fully prepared to walk away if they had insisted on it as i would not want to pay for a wife the same a man pays for a prostitute.

You really loved your wife then, I can see that!!!

Joe

No Thai expects you to totally live to that culture but respect is all they ask and some things show that you respect the thai culture, the country and your thai wife.

I give u 100 marks!

I am amazed by you, Joe. Have hardly seen a farang that understands these things so well!

Thanks MMT, good to see support. Marks = german marks? Or don't I get the point?

If you are interested in it and you are WILLING to learn about culture then you will probably start to like it. I love thai culture as it is so nicely different of what I've experienced back home. It is nice, sweet, respectful, thankful for the life they live (even if it's a poor life).

And I must admit: having my wonderful wife around me and seeing her move in that culture, I'm a very lucky man!

Joe

What happens when an Indian man marries a Thai women? Who's culture is the most important?

I was never asked to pay.

Why should we farang "accept Thai customs", why shouldn't our wives accept that our customs dictate that no sin-sot is payed?

Also you don't understand a bit of culture.

If man and woman want to marry they will talk about a lot of things. If man and woman are from different countries they will talk about where to marry, where to live, how? Lots of questions.

If man and woman are from different cultures there is even more to be talked over. Like what culture is accepted by both or what part of each culture can be accepted by both? It's all a matter of communication and no culture says you are not allowed to pay sin sot. It's a voluntary thing to do, if you want and if you respect that part of your wife's culture. What culture to chose is also a matter of in which country you live after your marriage. No UK citizen (example) would allow his thai wife to eat with her fingers in a restaurant or walk barefeet in the streets. He would also not accept that she sits on the floor and sleeps on the floor, and that is correct as she has to follow the social rules of the country she lives in.

So is it with men living with their thai wife in Thailand. You cannot expect a whole country to change because you are there. YOU chose to live there in a country with his own culture and traditions, so you have to stick to that. No Thai expects you to totally live to that culture but respect is all they ask and some things show that you respect the thai culture, the country and your thai wife.

Last thing: dowry in India is paid by the girl's family to convince a man to marry her. Sin sot has nothing to do with that (not even reverse), man and thai woman decide themselves if they want to get married, indian girls don't, they have no choice.

Joe

Joe>> Are you saying that they require that you speak dutch to get a continious Visa or do you infact talk about RS? Since to get it here you better be prepered to show more then your ability to speak Thai.

People from outside the EU have to undergo a test before getting allowed to stay longer than 3 months in The Netherlands. Part of that test is speaking Dutch. It also includes knowledge of the dutch history, royal family, political items etcetera. I wrote in some post about a friend of mine in Sukothai. She married a Dutchman and wants to live there until he retires and they can live in Thailand. She has to learn to speak Dutch, which is very difficult for asian people. She is teaching English but has trememdous problems with the dutch language.

And IIRC, a farang is allowed to lease 1 rai, not 2. or has this changed? Just pointing out so no-one get's confused, if it hasn't changed.

As far as I know you can lease the land needed for building the house on. For the rest you can rent land, like we have rented 8 rai of land with sugar on it, for 10 years, 500 baht per rai per year.

Thanks for the remarks on sin sot. As MS wrote earlier the main and only thing about marriage is that you and your wife love each other and want to stay together for life time. If you are not sure of that or think your wife could walk away with your money, you're obviously not ready to marry that woman and you need to do more homework by going into yourself to find out if you want that woman forever or just shot taam.

Joe

i respect your good intention joe and wish you the best.

life happens when we are making other plans. i think all people when they marry feel the same as you do about your wife but unfortunately many marrages fall over after a while whether they be thai or farang.

hope yours is a good one but at least you seem to have the right idea on the importance to respect thai custom.

many people still seem to struggle with this aspect.

Thanks Terry

Let me tell you what my philosophy in this matter is.

In my business life I have learned something very important: Spread risks! That is what I'm doing in a lot of matters in my life sofar and in my future life in LOS. E.g. our farm will not concentrate on cattle, rubber trees or whatever, we will have cattle, pigs, rubber trees, Papaya etcetera. Spreading the risk means able to cope with difficulties in one area of your activities.

So it is with money. I have made a well thought over plan to spread the risk of losing money, one way or the other. It is a 10 year period I cover and I invest my money in several ways. There are investments I could lose if my marriage would not turn out to be forever (which I heavily doubt as I've never met a woman who came near to my present wife as far as partnership, commitment, soulmates and real love is concerned), there are investments that would guarantuee me a new start if necessary.

So when everything is still fine after 10 years it will stay like that for sure, in the meantime our farm will give us a nice income and after 10 years we can relax and have a good life from the yield of the rubber trees (23 years long, I won't get that old :-) After those 23 years my wife can sell the rubber tree timber and have a couple of millions for her retirement. I think I did well.

Terry, I agree with you: if marriage break up I will not stay in the house that is in my name, I will leave. Just I will not leave with nothing.

Joe

it was already discussed here some 5 days ago

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...c=99363&hl=

So, the rumours were true, except it's just Air Asia - no Virgin or Easy Jet. It's just been confirmed on our Regional TV which showed the signing ceremony in Kual Lumpur. Initially flights from KL to Manchester to KL (Man.United being AirAsia's official SE Asia Airline it kakes global marketing sense) at suggested price of from £40 each way. Didn't say when from though.

Edit:

Just changed channels to BBC Regional and they say Manchesrer "in the running" with Air2000 as the hub for a new SE Asia airline with fares about half current price.

Just seen on CNN website: Air Asia X from KL to either London Stansted or to Manchester, prices about half the usual, starting in July.

Ahh well done SanukJoe - so you received the dosh back? This is how it should be in thai customs

Dutch huh? Always loved the dutch....great people!!!

It's nice to be a Dutchman, we seem to go along with a lot of nationalities and always welcomed in a warm way. I think we go along best with native english speakers, GB, Aussies, Irish, USA, CDN.

Maybe because most Dutch speak English on an acceptable level (and nobody speaks Dutch ) and also we usually can cope with english humour.